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Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


As an "art" photographer I get this all the time.

"oh I will have to check with my agency"

NOW... if are you are the 4 or 5 models that are rep'ed by a legit agency that finds you work every month... I'm not talking about you.  YOU should likely follow the admonition of your agency.  And to the even fewer agency models that shoot "art" with the backing of your agency... not you either.

But for the other 99.99% of you models who might have an "agent" of some kind... what are you giving up?  I mean really?  How many jobs did your agency book you last year?  Last month?

What kind of fun, and MONEY are you giving up by not working with "art" photographers?

Admit it... your agency is at best a fashion accessory that you wear more as a badge than it is a useful professional tool.

We might disagree on the definition of "model"... but it's never been someone who has an agent that rarely books them any work.

Come on over to the art side...  the waters nice... and we have free cookies.
Mar 14 13 08:43 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Cookies make you fat
Mar 14 13 09:33 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Paige Morgan
Posts: 4,058
New York, New York, US


Not every model wants to deal with being her own business manager.

If she's signed to a small agency, they may only get her a few jobs a month, but those clients are vetted for her, the rate is negotiated for her, and billing/payment is handled through her agency......she doesn't have to arrange and complete these tasks herself.

Freelancing is hard work, and it isn't a good fit for everyone.

Why not just move on to the many lovely ladies happy to work for art photographers?
Mar 14 13 09:39 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DaniNikole
Posts: 129
Sacramento, California, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
Cookies make you fat

Cookies are fucking delicious

Mar 14 13 09:40 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Chicchowmein
Posts: 14,370
Palm Beach, Florida, US


http://i773.photobucket.com/albums/yy15/meriam_03/cookie_monster.jpg
Mar 14 13 09:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lumatic
Posts: 13,750
Chicago, Illinois, US


https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ8wuDdGou448XVqZwEHwPDBt4ZipP8j9XKvfVDIybAQ7VV7Ndx
Mar 14 13 09:47 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Dani Nikole Feist wrote:

Cookies are fucking delicious

Yes they are...mmm sugar cookie dough cake batter ice cream

Mar 14 13 09:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
DaniNikole
Posts: 129
Sacramento, California, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:

Yes they are...mmm sugar cookie dough cake batter ice cream

With chocolate chips and sprinkles

Mar 14 13 09:59 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Now you're just teasing me
Mar 14 13 10:15 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Kaley King
Posts: 1,027
Jefferson City, Missouri, US


Sometimes even "legit" agencies aren't find people work allll the time.  Commercial work tends to be more part time.

Some agencies are also really strict about what a model does...so maybe the models are just being respectful to who represents them, and playing it safe.
Mar 14 13 10:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


bencook2 wrote:
As an "art" photographer I get this all the time.

"oh I will have to check with my agency"

NOW... if are you are the 4 or 5 models that are rep'ed by a legit agency that finds you work every month... I'm not talking about you.  YOU should likely follow the admonition of your agency.  And to the even fewer agency models that shoot "art" with the backing of your agency... not you either.

But for the other 99.99% of you models who might have an "agent" of some kind... what are you giving up?  I mean really?  How many jobs did your agency book you last year?  Last month?

What kind of fun, and MONEY are you giving up by not working with "art" photographers?

Admit it... your agency is at best a fashion accessory that you wear more as a badge than it is a useful professional tool.

We might disagree on the definition of "model"... but it's never been someone who has an agent that rarely books them any work.

Come on over to the art side...  the waters nice... and we have free cookies.

I feel like alot of the models on MM who claim to have agency representation are just saying so without even understanding what all it entails. Because, upon asking them who they are represented by, A) They aren't able to tell you the name of the agency B) They can't even tell you the difference between an agent and a manager and C) They still handle their own bookings.

Which, if they really had an agency, we all know that wouldn't be the case.

Mar 14 13 10:45 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Paige Morgan wrote:
Not every model wants to deal with being her own business manager.

If she's signed to a small agency, they may only get her a few jobs a month, but those clients are vetted for her, the rate is negotiated for her, and billing/payment is handled through her agency......she doesn't have to arrange and complete these tasks herself.

Freelancing is hard work, and it isn't a good fit for everyone.

Why not just move on to the many lovely ladies happy to work for art photographers?

If your agency is getting you a "few" jobs a month... PLEASE do as they say.  That's great.  I know girls who have been in vogue and on the wall at Abercrombie that don't get a few jobs a month from one agency.

I'm def not talking to "this" model.  So I don't think what you are talking about applies.

Mar 15 13 06:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Mortonovich
Posts: 5,373
San Diego, California, US


Their agency might be Instagram.
Mar 15 13 08:18 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 26,984
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada


personally i think ( legit ) agencies can provide useful services for models including

finding real work
ensuring models test with photographers that have a certain standard of work
and whenever possible ensuring the model gets paid
Mar 15 13 08:23 am  Link  Quote 
Model
GinaChic
Posts: 30
Moncks Corner, South Carolina, US


Dani Nikole Feist wrote:

With chocolate chips and sprinkles

Don't forget the caramel and hot fudge smile

Mar 15 13 08:31 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Garry k wrote:
personally i think ( legit ) agencies can provide useful services for models including

finding real work
ensuring models test with photographers that have a certain standard of work
and whenever possible ensuring the model gets paid

To what end? 

Is not the main reason for having an agency... work?  Yes, helping you stay clear of that photographer that you always regret shooting with is helpful.  And having someone to collect your money is nice.

But if they are collecting for one job every quarter is the rest worth it if you view being a model as a profession?  Especially if they are advising you to turn down fun, creative, lucrative art work... 

Again... if we can be honest.  90% of all models at "B" grade agencies are not working and likely could be.

What are you giving up to have a bill collector and someone that books you two shoots with great photographers (likely at YOUR expense).

Give in to your feelings.  Let it flow through you.  FEEL the power of the Art-Side.

Mar 15 13 08:45 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,308
Orlando, Florida, US


I understand what the OP is saying.

Models write "agency represented" on their profiles like photographers write "award winning" or "internationally published" on theirs.  For the vast majority, that means squat.

I know a guy who, among many, many other things, runs a "model agency". It's shady and models are pressured to sign contracts without actually reading them and sometimes at a club after drinking. Then they're told to go to one of a few local photographer friends with either him or his brother as escort to get them semi or full nude portfolio development.

The whole this is pretty terrible and preys on the naive club girl model who is just so hungry to be "signed" that she'll do it. I used to be one of the in circle photographers for this guy until I refused to let him or his brother sit in on the shoots. They were actually scaring the girls into thinking they needed one of them at any shoot.

Anyway, the point I'm making here is that ANYONE can say they're an agency, type up a fancy contract and get girls on their roster with promises of fame and money. Most times, it's to put another pretty face on their Facebook business page in an attempt to look more legit to attract more naive girls. Heck, I have enough connections that I could do it.

So I agree with the OP.  Most of the models here who state "agency represented" are wearing it as a fashion accessory. What they are really doing is checking with their sluggo boyfriend or pretend manager/boyfriend to find out if they should shoot with any particular photographer and how much to charge.  Oh... and to see when he's available to come along as escort.
Mar 15 13 08:49 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


I'm represented by an agency and I'm exclusive with them. They want us to send ALL paying assignments to them so they can screen the request and make sure it's real and that we're getting the payment we deserve. So far I've been approached by 1 paying assignment and it turned out to be a scam (or the guy changed his mind). I'm not the best girl there so I haven't gotten any jobs I. The 4 months I've been with them. I know some girls here lie to make themselves look bigger than they are, but some might actually be telling the truth (or they just don't want to work with you)
Mar 15 13 08:58 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Hey hey hey, I ask my boyfriend his opinion on 90% of the things I do. Doesn't mean I listen to him cause I have a disease called "F You! I do what I want". But still I ask to stroke his ego. I even call him Mr. Agent
Mar 15 13 09:00 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
I'm represented by an agency and I'm exclusive with them. They want us to send ALL paying assignments to them so they can screen the request and make sure it's real and that we're getting the payment we deserve. So far I've been approached by 1 paying assignment and it turned out to be a scam (or the guy changed his mind). I'm not the best girl there so I haven't gotten any jobs I. The 4 months I've been with them. I know some girls here lie to make themselves look bigger than they are, but some might actually be telling the truth (or they just don't want to work with you)

Wait... wait... wait.

YOU are exclusive with this "agency" but they have found you NO work and have turned down one job for you? (maybe for good reason)

And you have been with them 4 months?

If you can't see the red flag waiving you might want to look again.

Exactly what are they providing you OTHER than your ability to say you have an "agency"?

Mar 15 13 09:09 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,308
Orlando, Florida, US


bencook2 wrote:

Wait... wait... wait.

YOU are exclusive with this "agency" but they have found you NO work and have turned down one job for you? (maybe for good reason)

And you have been with them 4 months?

If you can't see the red flag waiving you might want to look again.

Exactly what are they providing you OTHER than your ability to say you have an "agency"?

Isn't that like having a personal chef who never prepares any meals for you, and won't let you eat McDonalds because its bad food?

Mar 15 13 09:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 12,662
Atlanta, Georgia, US


Seriously I don't think it's difficult to tell when you look at a models profile or stats if they are with some scam "agency". 

But the real question is why are you even finding them?  If you are looking to shoot with agency type models search for agency stats and you will never seen them.  Personally I feel  it's better to develop a relationship it's some good local legit agencies and let them find their models.  I am a photographer and not a model scout.
Mar 15 13 09:19 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


bencook2 wrote:

Wait... wait... wait.

YOU are exclusive with this "agency" but they have found you NO work and have turned down one job for you? (maybe for good reason)

And you have been with them 4 months?

If you can't see the red flag waiving you might want to look again.

Exactly what are they providing you OTHER than your ability to say you have an "agency"?

Well they gave me a free Facebook page. The agency started in September, I signed in November, then they signed about 100 other girls and a handful of guys (drool). Only had about 3-4 events since January and I don't have the right "look" as said the clients. That job was a scam so they didn't talk me out of money because I wasn't getting it anyway. Can't lose what you never had

And yes I see the red flags but can't just say I'm out since I'm legally bonded to them for another 8 months

Mar 15 13 09:21 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,308
Orlando, Florida, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
Well they gave me a free Facebook page. The agency started in September, I signed in November, then they signed about 100 other girls and a handful of guys (drool). Only had about 3-4 events since January and I don't have the right "look" as said the clients. That job was a scam so they didn't talk me out of money because I wasn't getting it anyway. Can't lose what you never had

And yes I see the red flags but can't just say I'm out since I'm legally bonded to them for another 8 months

This is exactly the BS "agency" stuff we're talking about. My girlfriend is signed to a very established and well know commercial agency in L.A. She is allowed to fire them at any time. She is also allowed to seek out, book, and be paid for any extra work she wants.

I will assume you will never sign a deal like this again.


I suggest you read through your contract again carefully and try to find ways to get out of it or at least find the part in there that actually benefits you. Because right now, every day they are not placing you in a paid job, you are being screwed.

Mar 15 13 09:30 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,308
Orlando, Florida, US


Danielle, I don't want to make this thread about you, but this is absolutely on topic. You are exactly the model the OP is talking about. And hooked up with the exact "agency" I'm talking about.

I went to H&H website. They have exactly 16 models to serve the three state area they say they serve. You're not on their site, by the way. And half of those models don't seem fit for even alcohol promo modeling.

The Facebook presence may be better, I don't know.

And there's the frustration from both sides of this. There are thousands of models in locked down BS contracts like you. And there are thousands of photographers who would love to work with models like you, but there is that barrier between those models and photographers. The "agency" barrier. It really benefits no one. Not even the "agency" because 20% of nothing is still nothing.

It's 27 year old playas with swag pretending to run a business from a nightclub VIP table.  Free Facebook page, indeed!  Hey. I have two of those.
Mar 15 13 09:46 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Sorry I high jacked the thread. Wasn't my intentions, but because a post was directed towards me I feel the need to respond. I know I'm not on their site. I haven't gotten my pictures from them yet or even seen them. I was one of the first girls to sign up but then they signed "prettier" girls and now their faces are everywhere. I don't get any of the promos, bike or alcohol, and I haven't had a shoot since December. But I have absolutely no idea how to get out. Part of me thinks if I do leave then ill miss my chance of actually doing the promos I want and end up stuck with GWCs on Craig List like before. So I'm torn. I'm stuck doing nothing with this agency while they're flaunting the tall pretty girls and I'm not doing anything on my own because I have absolutely no idea where to look.

Okay I'm done high jacking now. Really it's not what I intended.
Mar 15 13 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Leonard Gee Photography
Posts: 16,142
Sacramento, California, US


bencook2 wrote:
As an "art" photographer I get this all the time.

"oh I will have to check with my agency"

...............................

What kind of fun, and MONEY are you giving up by not working with "art" photographers?

...............................

Come on over to the art side...  the waters nice... and we have free cookies.

Your translation machine isn't working.

"oh I will have to check with my agency" simply means, I may not want to work with you.

There's no need to preach a whole sermon on it. Just as models get "you are too commercial", it's just a polite way to put you off. Besides, all you have to reply is "can I call your agency?" or move on. Not everyone is obligated to perform just because own a camera.

Mar 15 13 10:03 am  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


Mar 15 13 10:06 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 15,308
Orlando, Florida, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:
Sorry I high jacked the thread. Wasn't my intentions, but because a post was directed towards me I feel the need to respond. I know I'm not on their site. I haven't gotten my pictures from them yet or even seen them. I was one of the first girls to sign up but then they signed "prettier" girls and now their faces are everywhere. I don't get any of the promos, bike or alcohol, and I haven't had a shoot since December. But I have absolutely no idea how to get out. Part of me thinks if I do leave then ill miss my chance of actually doing the promos I want and end up stuck with GWCs on Craig List like before. So I'm torn. I'm stuck doing nothing with this agency while they're flaunting the tall pretty girls and I'm not doing anything on my own because I have absolutely no idea where to look.

Okay I'm done high jacking now. Really it's not what I intended.

Read your contract. You have a copy of it, right?

Look for the exact part where it lays out penalties for breaching it. If you can't find penalties, then who cares if you do what you do.  I know plenty of girls who work tons of promo work and they do it all on their own. No manager, no agency.

Don't be afraid that you will be missing out on future work. You're missing out on CURRENT work because of them.

But seriously. Read your contract. Take it to a free lawyer if they will see you. I'll bet you can tear it up and H&H won't be able to do a thing.  But read it first.

Mar 15 13 10:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
Your translation machine isn't working.

"oh I will have to check with my agency" simply means, I may not want to work with you.

There's no need to preach a whole sermon on it. Just as llamas get "you are too commercial", it's just a polite way to put you off. Besides, all you have to reply is "can I call your agency?" or move on. Not everyone is obligated to perform just because own a camera.

I've been at this game for over 15 years.  I know the difference between being told "no" politely and a llama who isn't working with me because of a third party.

So I'm afraid it is YOUR translation that is off.

Mar 15 13 10:20 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


@Danielle Kitten

If this thread helps you I don't think of you as hijacking it at all.  Post away.

The other contributor is correct.  Look at your contract.  There is likely a performance clause for the agency.  If not... make sure your next contract has one.

Next look at what your penalties are.  I doubt they are much if anything.
Mar 15 13 10:23 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


to the OP, just because a photographer proclaims themselves to be an "art photographer" doesn't mean that art is really being produced.

The same is true with a breathing human who because they can, claims to be a model.


There are lots of good to excellent art models out there who are not affiliated with agencies.


Why spend time on models who either don't really want to work with you or who are under the (de)lusion that the model manager they signed with is like a real agency?
Mar 15 13 10:25 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:
to the OP, just because a photographer proclaims themselves to be an "art photographer" doesn't mean that art is really being produced.

The same is true with a breathing human who because they can, claims to be a model.


There are lots of good to excellent art models out there who are not affiliated with agencies.


Why spend time on models who either don't really want to work with you or who are under the (de)lusion that the model manager they signed with is like a real agency?

Really?  I don't see many good art models at all out there. 

I define good as: Professional, available, willing, and what I'm looking for aesthetically.

Usually when I find the first three the model is pushing 30 and has a few too many stretch marks and/or tattoos for what I want to create.  (I'm not bad mouthing tattoos.  And for the right model I could give two sh!ts about the stretch marks.)

Mar 15 13 11:16 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Boho Hobo
Posts: 25,351
Portland, Oregon, US


bencook2 wrote:
Really?  I don't see many good art llamas at all out there. 

I define good as: Professional, available, willing, and what I'm looking for aesthetically.

Usually when I find the first three the llama is pushing 30 and has a few too many stretch marks and/or tattoos for what I want to create.  (I'm not bad mouthing tattoos.  And for the right llama I could give two sh!ts about the stretch marks.)

How many good art llamas do you need and what are you trying to do with them?

are you just trying tfp or are you willing to pay?


I understand things can be harsh when you first start out (it took me months and the help of a couple of photographer friends to get hooked up with the right sort of llamas) but in the case of stretch marks and tats, a good MUA can cover lots of what you don't want.

Mar 15 13 12:05 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 4,083
Miami, Florida, US


bencook2 wrote:
@Danielle Kitten

If this thread helps you I don't think of you as hijacking it at all.  Post away.

The other contributor is correct.  Look at your contract.  There is likely a performance clause for the agency.  If not... make sure your next contract has one.

Next look at what your penalties are.  I doubt they are much if anything.

They threatened us with law suits and crap like that. I have copies of the contracts but its hard to understand. Looks as if they repeat themselves and throw in big unnecessary words.

Mar 15 13 12:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


ChiMo wrote:
Their agency might be Instagram.

+1

Mar 15 13 12:24 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


Danielle Kitten wrote:

They threatened us with law suits and crap like that. I have copies of the contracts but its hard to understand. Looks as if they repeat themselves and throw in big unnecessary words.

Then you should have someone take a good second look at your contract. Someone who is able to explain to you what it is saying and means.

Mar 15 13 12:25 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Hieronimi
Posts: 238
Chicago, Illinois, US


bencook2 wrote:
I've been at this game for over 15 years.  I know the difference between being told "no" politely and a llama who isn't working with me because of a third party.

So I'm afraid it is YOUR translation that is off.

Thank you for addressing that comment. It made me shudder.

Mar 15 13 12:28 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
bencook2
Posts: 3,817
Pageland, South Carolina, US


Patchouli Nyx wrote:

How many good art models do you need and what are you trying to do with them?

are you just trying tfp or are you willing to pay?


I understand things can be harsh when you first start out (it took me months and the help of a couple of photographer friends to get hooked up with the right sort of models) but in the case of stretch marks and tats, a good MUA can cover lots of what you don't want.

I am hardly just starting out.  And I pay every model. 

I sell my work.   

I don't know everything... but I have been around the marriage of the Interwebz and Modeling since is was Heather Pariso, Janeen Lee and Anna Lieb on SouthEastern Model Forum, Fashion Only Forum, and Garage Glamour.

Mar 15 13 01:02 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


bencook2 wrote:

I am hardly just starting out.  And I pay every model. 

I sell my work.   

I don't know everything... but I have been around the marriage of the Interwebz and Modeling since is was Heather Pariso, Janeen Lee and Anna Lieb on SouthEastern Model Forum, Fashion Only Forum, and Garage Glamour.

So if you have been in the scene that long what is your problem?
I've only been in the "art modeling/photography/internet" since 2005 & I have a rather large list of amazing art models who travel the country and local, as well as local models both men and women for pretty much any project that comes my way.


I JUST did a casting this month for a new project and in less then 8 days I got 8 sets of casting photos sent to the director. 6 of those 8 came to my studio for the casting images. 3 have been chosen the shoot is late April.

If you're so much more experienced than I with your time in the game, you might want to look in the mirror for your issues.

Mar 15 13 03:13 pm  Link  Quote 
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