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Photographer
Ethan Ingram
Posts: 14
Los Angeles, California, US


I had a terrible conversation with a "photographer" yesterday morning.
This idiot made some stupid comments about how many models he had slept with and how sex was practically a requirement to hire him as a photographer.

I was utterly horrified by this, it made me feel so angry that somebody who called himself a "professional photographer" could act in such an un-professinal manner and take advantage of or disrespect women like that.
I wanted so much to punch him in the face, and had a really hard time trying to keep my cool!

A stupid comment like that really gets under my skin... I have been very fortunate to work with many very beautiful and talented female models. I strive to always be a gentleman, I do not make inappropriate comments, nor do I ever touch a model.

I never cease to act in a professional manner, sometimes I even go overboard, trying to be as polite as I can.

I want my clients to be as comfortable as possible, it takes time to build trust and I would never do anything that might betray that trust.

Whenever I am hired to shoot something "sexy", I make it a point to always have another woman present with me, either an MUA or an assistant, just to make the model/subject feel comfortable.

I try to respect women as much as possible.

A few years back I worked briefly assisting a crime scene photographer with the LAPD. During that brief stint I had to photograph a lot of women. Women who had been brutally beaten, women who had been raped, and women who had been murdered. Victims of abuse, addictions, or far too often the over-inflated male ego. It was heartbreaking.

Seeing intense fear in an abused woman's eyes was for me more difficult to look at then any dead body.

It is very therapeutic for me today to be able to work with a woman and make her look as beautiful in a photograph as she is in real life. Mind you, I am not talking about physical beauty, but a beauty of spirit...
Bringing this out in a photograph is my way of honoring all of those women.

I get nothing out of it sexually, nor do I wish to... This is my job, my job does not turn me on... I would assume that drilling teeth would have no sexual meaning to a dentist. So why should making photographs have a sexual meaning to me as a photographer?
(Mind you I am using this as an analogy, I am in no way suggesting that photography could ever be as mundane to me as drilling teeth!)

When I photograph somebody, I am so concerned with the creation of the image, the composition, camera settings, lighting, etc. That I do not have time for lust, with all of that tech stuff on my mind, there is no room for lust to enter!

Male photographers everywhere, please respect women!
Aug 08 13 02:49 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Photographers, Club promoters, Directors, Managers of bakeries, Musicians....

and on and on and on...

Oh wait,

Women have ALSO been known to pull that shit as well....

People are people.

Some people take advantage of others, some do not.

You can't blame it on the "photography" nor can you blame it on being a "man".

Some people with power will find ways to exploit it.
Aug 08 13 02:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
nyk fury
Posts: 2,876
Port Townsend, Washington, US


Ethan Ingram wrote:
I get nothing out of it sexually, nor do I wish to... This is my job, my job does not turn me on... I would assume that drilling teeth would have no sexual meaning to a dentist. So why should making photographs have a sexual meaning to me as a photographer?
(Mind you I am using this as an analogy, I am in no way suggesting that photography could ever be as mundane to me as drilling teeth!)

define sexual. define turned on. i don't think it's nearly as cut and dry as you seem to make it out to be. there are a lot of shades of attraction. guys shooting girls, particularly young, pretty girls: that's inherently 'sexual' in some way, though not necessarily overt. i think that without a certain sensuality in the process you are going to end up with some rather cold, dead images. since this isn't a critique forum, one will just have to catch my drift. the shooters and subjects can be turned on without crossing the line, and perhaps that is part of the game: let's see how far we can take this - emotionally, inspirationally, sensually - without taking it too far.

Aug 08 13 03:09 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Rays Fine Art
Posts: 5,668
New York, New York, US


Well, I have to commend you for your high standards but at the same time I have to point out that the ratio of photographers who use their position as photographers as an excuse to behave inappropriately toward women is probably pretty well the same as say, dentists, or for that matter cops, soldiers in the field, pastors in the pulpit or coaches in the locker room.  (Although the latter two seem to be more socially conscious in that they seem to be equal opportunity perverts.)

Mind you, I'm not saying that we should not respect women and behave appropriately toward them.  We should, just as we should respect and behave appropriately toward everyone, male or female.  And I might point out that this is not a matter of professionalism but rather one of courtesy.

If it were a matter of professionalism, then the hobbyists among us would be exempt.  I'm sure that's not what you mean.  You see, "professional" has both a much narrower application and a much wider one.  And using the word "appropriate" would make your plea less insulting to those of us, professional and amateur alike, who suit our behaviors and our comments to the circumstances around us rather than fan the hysterical flames of "photographers are all perverts" that we see so often in the forums.

It would also help prevent our mistaking you for a "White Knight" rather than the socially conscious individual, out to change the world one demographic group at a time, that you so obviously are.

All IMHO as always, of course.
Aug 08 13 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Laura Bello
Posts: 1,140
Rochester, New York, US


I'm slowly learning as I come into contact with more and more photographers they're really just like people.  Some are awesome and nice, some are scummy jerks, just cause they're a photographer doesn't mean they're going to be a good respectful person sadly.

It blows but try not to let it get to you too much.  I really believe there's far more photographers that are respectful than scummy like that.
Aug 08 13 03:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Amber Dawn - Colorado
Posts: 6,021
Castle Rock, Colorado, US


I think it happens more often then you know.
Aug 08 13 03:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


Wasn't the late 80's early 90's when several dentists got busted for putting female clients under for "dental work" and then raping them while they were under sedation?
It was all over the news for a few years.



Next time someone tells you they act this way don't just bite your tongue, say something say, something TO them. Silence is what keeps them going.

Every time your silent, you just encourage them to act again.
Aug 08 13 03:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
BlueMoonPics
Posts: 3,524
New York, New York, US


Colorado Model Amber wrote:
I think it happens more often then you know.

Yup.
"I am human and I need to be loved"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEq8DBxm0J4

Bragging about how many he's bagged...not so cool.

Aug 08 13 03:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
neeeep
Posts: 238
Los Angeles, California, US


Colorado Model Amber wrote:
I think it happens more often then you know.

+1,000

Aug 08 13 03:37 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 242
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


Ethan Ingram wrote:
I had a terrible conversation with a "photographer" yesterday morning.
This idiot made some stupid comments about how many models he had slept with and how sex was practically a requirement to hire him as a photographer.

I was utterly horrified by this, it made me feel so angry that somebody who called himself a "professional photographer" could act in such an un-professinal manner and take advantage of or disrespect women like that.
......

How is it disrespectful to have sex with a consenting adult??  I think it is disrespectful to belittle these woman by assuming that they can't make choices that are appropriate for them.

There is nothing wrong with sex or having sex with people you work with. A lot of completely "professional" people do it and it says nothing about their integrity. Sex is great. Sex is fun. Relax.

Aug 08 13 03:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ShotbyRon
Posts: 767
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US


I agree this guy sounds like a complete douchebag for bragging about it. Guy's like that in general annoy me. But life is life. We are all human. Sometimes people are going to hit it off and end up sleeping together.

I also agree with respecting models and not stepping over the line. But I do feel you need to push the boundaries sometimes to get a really great image. If that means being a little flirty or whatever, then so be it. If you just stand there and tell the model how to pose and show no emotion then you're more then likely going to get cold and boring images. Especially with newer models. You seem to be so worried about not coming off as creepy, it's almost creepy.
Aug 08 13 03:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Carle Photography
Posts: 9,227
Oakland, California, US


LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY  wrote:

How is it disrespectful to have sex with a consenting adult??  I think it is disrespectful to belittle these woman by assuming that they can't make choices that are appropriate for them.

There is nothing wrong with sex or having sex with people you work with. A lot of completely "professional" people do it and it says nothing about their integrity. Sex is great. Sex is fun. Relax.

Coercion is not the same as consent....
Numerous people coerce others into sexual acts every day.

It is an act of power.

Aug 08 13 03:44 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 242
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


Bay Area Boudoir wrote:

Coercion is not the same as consent....
Numerous people coerce others into sexual acts every day.

It is an act of power.

And you have what to back up your claims of coercion???

Aug 08 13 03:46 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 18,912
Chicago, Illinois, US


Ever consider that he might be lying?   Men have been known to brag about things they haven't done.   Good to hear you're a gentleman though.
Aug 08 13 03:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Christopher Hartman
Posts: 53,272
Buena Park, California, US


Why is this in the model forum? Shouldn't you complain about us in our forum?

and I doubt this photographer's story.  He probably never gets close to bedding anyone but wants to try to make you think he's awesome.
Aug 08 13 03:48 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lovely Day Media
Posts: 3,405
Vineland, New Jersey, US


I feel your pain on some levels but not so much on others.

  For instance, the making sex a requirement to work with him ... if that's how he chooses to run his business and people keep going for it, what business is it of mine? I would imagine he's having sex with women who are at least 18 ... otherwise he's taking a huge chance in going to jail. There is always the possibility you've been lied to, just to see that look on your face, too.

  Everyone doesn't have to make the same choices I/we make in similar situations. We can't control them. We can only control our own actions. I understand that you don't want men or photographers in general to have/get a bad reputation, but who has a worse reputation than a used car salesman?

Don't people continue to buy used cars?
Aug 08 13 03:52 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Awesome Headshots
Posts: 2,346
San Ramon, California, US


Ethan Ingram wrote:
I had a terrible conversation with a "photographer" yesterday morning.
This idiot made some stupid comments about how many models he had slept with and how sex was practically a requirement to hire him as a photographer.

I was utterly horrified by this, it made me feel so angry that somebody who called himself a "professional photographer" could act in such an un-professinal manner and take advantage of or disrespect women like that.
I wanted so much to punch him in the face, and had a really hard time trying to keep my cool!

"I once caught a fish this big". Why are you letting a self absorbed, pretentious photographer get to you? Chances are that he has  small penis and has really only slept with 2 out of his thousands of models who happened to be his male cousins and charged him $125.00 each. Best to keep your distance from people like him and surround yourself with professionals you aspire to be like.

Aug 08 13 03:53 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Orca Bay Images
Posts: 31,709
Lodi, California, US


Christopher Hartman wrote:
Why is this in the model forum?

How else will the fair damsels know what a brave white knight he is if he's off elsewhere actually fighting the dragons? Much more effective to speechify in front of the fair damsels.

Aug 08 13 04:30 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
NicoleNudes
Posts: 3,729
Toronto, Ontario, Canada


Ariadne Photography wrote:
I'm slowly learning as I come into contact with more and more photographers they're really just like people.  Some are awesome and nice, some are scummy jerks, just cause they're a photographer doesn't mean they're going to be a good respectful person sadly.

It blows but try not to let it get to you too much.  I really believe there's far more photographers that are respectful than scummy like that.

+1

I've had FAR more positive experiences than negative ones.

Aug 08 13 04:34 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
DOUGLASFOTOS
Posts: 7,666
Los Angeles, California, US


Nothing new, same ol same. I drive the 2014 Mercedes S Class..while you still drive the Ford Pinto syndrome.
Aug 08 13 04:35 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY
Posts: 242
Wilmington, North Carolina, US


Orca Bay Images wrote:

How else will the fair damsels know what a brave white knight he is if he's off elsewhere actually fighting the dragons? Much more effective to speechify in front of the fair damsels.

I think it should be in the "soapbox" forum.

smile

Aug 08 13 04:36 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
J O H N A L L A N
Posts: 9,518
Santa Ana, California, US


Maybe he was just yanking your chain and you took it a bit too seriously.
Aug 08 13 04:38 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Klarrissa
Posts: 2,318
Los Angeles, California, US


I wouldn't have even continued to entertain him, I would have said a few choice words and walked away. Regardless of if he was telling the truth or not, I don't listen and converse with people like that. Zero tolerance.
Aug 08 13 04:50 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
terrysphotocountry
Posts: 4,030
Rochester, New York, US


Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
Photographers, Club promoters, Directors, Managers of bakeries, Musicians....

and on and on and on...

Oh wait,

Women have ALSO been known to pull that shit as well....

People are people.

Some people take advantage of others, some do not.

You can't blame it on the "photography" nor can you blame it on being a "man".

Some people with power will find ways to exploit it.

Amen!

Aug 08 13 04:57 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Marin Photography NYC
Posts: 6,124
New York, New York, US


From my experience, people who brag about shit like this are usually full of shit.

I think you are over reacting because you have no proof that this person is telling you the truth.

I had a neighbor that used to brag about having sex with different women all the time and it turns out he is gay. Never been with a woman. Now he's married to a dude....
Aug 08 13 05:03 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Lentille de Guerre
Posts: 96
Seattle, Washington, US


Bottom line, just don't be a fucking creeper.

If you hit it off with a model and hook up, whatever.  Same goes with anyone else on the creative team.  I've been to some crazy "wrap parties" - what happens there, and after, is nobody's business.  Handle your OWN shit and move on.
Aug 08 13 05:14 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25,319
Bath, England, United Kingdom


Some guys are douchebags and a few of these also take photos.

They're the exception rather than the rule so not really worth losing sleep over.

Behaving respectfully yourself is all that's required.





Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Aug 08 13 05:18 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Danielle Reid
Posts: 3,057
Los Angeles, California, US


Creeps are everywhere. Ever hear of the dentist firing his dental assistant because he was too attracted to her? (She wore scrubs and a very unflattering tshirt under them)

His behavior is unacceptable but it happens. I'm sure the women he slept with weren't THAT naive and acted with their own will power.
Aug 08 13 05:21 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 22,079
Salem, Oregon, US


if it's legal and consenting where's the harm? i guess it gets trickier when the model feels like she was coerced or just went along because she didn't know how it was supposed to be (but can you really trust what people say after the fact?) the truth is we all use whatever leverage we may have to get the things we want/need whether that's sex or other things.

regardless, sexual assault is bad and it seems like there's too much stuff going on that isn't mutual or is coerced. i'd much rather hear about models and photographers happily dating than "is it normal for the photographer to reach inside my shirt to rearrange my tits?" hard to say if it's normal. sometimes it seems that way around here!
Aug 08 13 05:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Erik Ballew
Posts: 689
Westminster, Colorado, US


Bay Area Boudoir wrote:
Photographers, Club promoters, Directors, Managers of bakeries, Musicians....

and on and on and on...

Oh wait,

Women have ALSO been known to pull that shit as well....

People are people.

Some people take advantage of others, some do not.

You can't blame it on the "photography" nor can you blame it on being a "man".

Some people with power will find ways to exploit it.

We have power?

Aug 08 13 05:22 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
Isis22
Posts: 1,694
Muncie, Indiana, US


ShotbyRon wrote:
I also agree with respecting models and not stepping over the line. But I do feel you need to push the boundaries sometimes to get a really great image. If that means being a little flirty or whatever, then so be it. If you just stand there and tell the model how to pose and show no emotion then you're more then likely going to get cold and boring images. Especially with newer models. You seem to be so worried about not coming off as creepy, it's almost creepy.

Pushing the boundaries usually IS creepy.

Aug 08 13 06:19 pm  Link  Quote 
Model
neeeep
Posts: 238
Los Angeles, California, US


Isis22 wrote:

Pushing the boundaries usually IS creepy.

+1
don't push boundaries. it's disrespectful.

Aug 08 13 06:42 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Risen Phoenix Photo
Posts: 1,085
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US


Ethan Ingram wrote:
I had a terrible conversation with a "photographer" yesterday morning.
This idiot made some stupid comments about how many models he had slept with and how sex was practically a requirement to hire him as a photographer.

I was utterly horrified by this, it made me feel so angry that somebody who called himself a "professional photographer" could act in such an un-professinal manner and take advantage of or disrespect women like that.
I wanted so much to punch him in the face, and had a really hard time trying to keep my cool!

A stupid comment like that really gets under my skin... I have been very fortunate to work with many very beautiful and talented female models. I strive to always be a gentleman, I do not make inappropriate comments, nor do I ever touch a model.

I never cease to act in a professional manner, sometimes I even go overboard, trying to be as polite as I can.

I want my clients to be as comfortable as possible, it takes time to build trust and I would never do anything that might betray that trust.

Whenever I am hired to shoot something "sexy", I make it a point to always have another woman present with me, either an MUA or an assistant, just to make the model/subject feel comfortable.

I try to respect women as much as possible.

A few years back I worked briefly assisting a crime scene photographer with the LAPD. During that brief stint I had to photograph a lot of women. Women who had been brutally beaten, women who had been raped, and women who had been murdered. Victims of abuse, addictions, or far too often the over-inflated male ego. It was heartbreaking.

Seeing intense fear in an abused woman's eyes was for me more difficult to look at then any dead body.

It is very therapeutic for me today to be able to work with a woman and make her look as beautiful in a photograph as she is in real life. Mind you, I am not talking about physical beauty, but a beauty of spirit...
Bringing this out in a photograph is my way of honoring all of those women.

I get nothing out of it sexually, nor do I wish to... This is my job, my job does not turn me on... I would assume that drilling teeth would have no sexual meaning to a dentist. So why should making photographs have a sexual meaning to me as a photographer?
(Mind you I am using this as an analogy, I am in no way suggesting that photography could ever be as mundane to me as drilling teeth!)

When I photograph somebody, I am so concerned with the creation of the image, the composition, camera settings, lighting, etc. That I do not have time for lust, with all of that tech stuff on my mind, there is no room for lust to enter!

Male photographers everywhere, please respect women!

Many time it is consensual... And if it is, more power to him. One models creep is another model's crush.

Don't white knight it. Remember it is the socially awkward and un attractive who face the harassment  charges not the Brad Pitts of the world, or the John Kennedy's . And don't think they don't push women's boundaries; some guys get away with it others don't.

Those of us who would never get away with it often decry those who always will.

IMHO

Aug 08 13 07:27 pm  Link  Quote 
Photographer
GM Photography
Posts: 6,004
Olympia, Washington, US


Why put so much energy into worrying about what other people do?  What can you do about that?  Why do you feel the need to proclaim what a wonderful person you are? 

My policy is to be the best person I can be and avoid people that try to take advantage of me.  Do you think models don't ever try to take advantage of people?  Do you think there aren't people in every profession that try to take advantage of other people?  Do you think models are defenseless mindless people that can't take care of themselves?

You're giving this one person way more credit than they deserve and not giving others as much credit as they deserve.
Aug 08 13 09:55 pm  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
Giacomo Cirrincioni
Posts: 20,644
New York, New York, US


Maybe they wanted to sleep with him?

If so, why should you care?

There are models who "collect" photographers as well.  So what?

What is wrong, is exploitation.  If a model wants to work a job I'm shooting and I use that position of power or influence to get her to do something she does NOT want to do, that's unprofessional, unethical and down right icky.

Everything else is all well and good.
Aug 09 13 06:27 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
terrysphotocountry
Posts: 4,030
Rochester, New York, US


Models  never act unprofessional... Men or Women?
Aug 09 13 06:34 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,095
Pelham, New York, US


Colorado Model Amber wrote:
I think it happens more often then you know.

Yes, in every occupation. Not just photography.

Aug 09 13 06:44 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Jeff Fiore
Posts: 9,095
Pelham, New York, US


Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Maybe they wanted to sleep with him?

If so, why should you care?

There are models who "collect" photographers as well.  So what?

What is wrong, is exploitation.  If a model wants to work a job I'm shooting and I use that position of power or influence to get her to do something she does NOT want to do, that's unprofessional, unethical and down right icky.

Everything else is all well and good.

If there is a mutual attraction, I see no problem with that. If someone in a position of power uses it to get sex, there could be a problem. However, with photographers, you can just chose not to work with one who will only shoot you for sex.

Aug 09 13 06:47 am  Link  Quote 
Photographer
Light and Lens Studio
Posts: 1,042
Sisters, Oregon, US


Ethan Ingram wrote:
I had a terrible conversation with a "photographer" yesterday morning.
This idiot made some stupid comments about how many models he had slept with and how sex was practically a requirement to hire him as a photographer.

I was utterly horrified by this, it made me feel so angry that somebody who called himself a "professional photographer" could act in such an un-professinal manner and take advantage of or disrespect women like that.
I wanted so much to punch him in the face, and had a really hard time trying to keep my cool!

A stupid comment like that really gets under my skin... I have been very fortunate to work with many very beautiful and talented female models. I strive to always be a gentleman, I do not make inappropriate comments, nor do I ever touch a model.

I never cease to act in a professional manner, sometimes I even go overboard, trying to be as polite as I can.

I want my clients to be as comfortable as possible, it takes time to build trust and I would never do anything that might betray that trust.

Whenever I am hired to shoot something "sexy", I make it a point to always have another woman present with me, either an MUA or an assistant, just to make the model/subject feel comfortable.

I try to respect women as much as possible.

A few years back I worked briefly assisting a crime scene photographer with the LAPD. During that brief stint I had to photograph a lot of women. Women who had been brutally beaten, women who had been raped, and women who had been murdered. Victims of abuse, addictions, or far too often the over-inflated male ego. It was heartbreaking.

Seeing intense fear in an abused woman's eyes was for me more difficult to look at then any dead body.

It is very therapeutic for me today to be able to work with a woman and make her look as beautiful in a photograph as she is in real life. Mind you, I am not talking about physical beauty, but a beauty of spirit...
Bringing this out in a photograph is my way of honoring all of those women.

I get nothing out of it sexually, nor do I wish to... This is my job, my job does not turn me on... I would assume that drilling teeth would have no sexual meaning to a dentist. So why should making photographs have a sexual meaning to me as a photographer?
(Mind you I am using this as an analogy, I am in no way suggesting that photography could ever be as mundane to me as drilling teeth!)

When I photograph somebody, I am so concerned with the creation of the image, the composition, camera settings, lighting, etc. That I do not have time for lust, with all of that tech stuff on my mind, there is no room for lust to enter!

Male photographers everywhere, please respect women!

Does the heavy, shining armor make it really hard to mount your white horse when you go out to rescue these innocent damsels?

Aug 09 13 06:51 am  Link  Quote 
guide forum
Photographer
GPS Studio Services
Posts: 33,584
San Francisco, California, US


LUNA_PHOTOGRAPHY  wrote:
How is it disrespectful to have sex with a consenting adult??  I think it is disrespectful to belittle these woman by assuming that they can't make choices that are appropriate for them.

There is nothing wrong with sex or having sex with people you work with. A lot of completely "professional" people do it and it says nothing about their integrity. Sex is great. Sex is fun. Relax.

This reminds me of all the arguments I heard when they were trying to get rid of the "casting couch."

Aug 09 13 07:46 am  Link  Quote 
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