Model
Eris Foxx
Posts: 15
København, Hovedstaden, Denmark
I am new to the forums so please try to be nice  I stumbled into modeling when I was around 15, and grew up with a photographer father. However, I stopped growing. I have been doing quite finding photographers who want to shoot with me for TF and other artistic projects, but I understand my height is a serious reason why I have not made any money as a model. I believe I can bring a lot to the table that is unique and aesthetically pleasing, so I'm determined to keep modeling. I was wondering what steps I could take to pursue petite modeling. I would love answers outside of 'do nudes' although I have no issue with nudes, that is not the path I am interested in taking. Agency names, photographers, or magazines that I should look at would all be very appreciated! (By the way I am 5'4")
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 8908
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
MaryFoxx wrote:
I am new to the forums so please try to be nice
I stumbled into modeling when I was around 15, and grew up with a photographer father. However, I stopped growing. I have been doing quite finding photographers who want to shoot with me for TF and other artistic projects, but I understand my height is a serious reason why I have not made any money as a model. I believe I can bring a lot to the table that is unique and aesthetically pleasing, so I'm determined to keep modeling.
I was wondering what steps I could take to pursue petite modeling. I would love answers outside of 'do nudes' although I have no issue with nudes, that is not the path I am interested in taking.
Agency names, photographers, or magazines that I should look at would all be very appreciated!
(By the way I am 5'4") In the real world of modelling you're considered short & not even close to being petite.
My advice is continue modelling as a hobby & have fun
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Its hard for agency standard models to book work. At 5'4" commercial and fashion work may be next too impossible to get. Freelance work is your best option but those that pay might not consider you based on a few things said in your profile. Still, check with agencies in Denver and any magazines there as well.
Model
Eris Foxx
Posts: 15
København, Hovedstaden, Denmark
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Its hard for agency standard models to book work. At 5'4" commercial and fashion work may be next too impossible to get. Freelance work is your best option but those that pay might not consider you based on a few things said in your profile. Still, check with agencies in Denver and any magazines there as well. Just curious, what things in my profile would lend to me not being paid?
Photographer
Darkcloud Creationz
Posts: 100
Pitman, New Jersey, US
Cosplay is ideal for smaller models. I would suggest doing some promotional advertisements or working with artists who use digital backgrounds where size doesn't matter as much. Personally I prefer to work with models who are different from the expected model size and shape.
Photographer
Images by MR
Posts: 8908
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
MaryFoxx wrote:
Just curious, what things in my profile would lend to me not being paid? Edit: Never mind. OP if you want my response start a thread in the critique forum.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
This forum is full of people who will try to tell you you can't model if you aren't 5ft 10" or something. This is utter bullshit and geared to putting down models so they think the only work they can get is tf or nude. A good model is a good model whatever her height. I am only 5ft 6" but have modelled runway alongside Premier agency models for a major fashion house. I am not agency represented. I have NEVER had difficulty finding paid modelling work. But there are many pretentious photographers who have aspirations to being fashion photographers who will tell you you can't do it. Then still more others saying the only way you will get paid is to model nude. It is true that to get with a fashion modelling agency you generally have to be taller. Usually a minimum of 5ft 7" and the majority of castings even when height is not specified will go to taller models. This is the way it is. However, the simple truth is the vast majority of photographers here who want to shoot fashion will find it difficult to but that doesn't stop them doing it for enjoyment in the hope they may one day get recognised. Many of them will be the snootiest when it comes to putting down shorter models. Just ignore them and pursue your interest and try to carve out a niche for yourself while trying your hand at a variety of modelling. Petite modelling in itself is a specialised niche....but you do see castings on MM and elsewhere regularly so keep your eyes peeled for castings which match your stats. My former flatmates girlfriend did some petite and fit at 5ft 2" and it supplemented her acting income nicely. You already state you have done some promo modelling. If you are good at that and interacting with people it can lead to regular paid work. Again people here look down their nose at it because it is outside their realm of experience so they think it is handing out leaflets at bars. Sometimes it may be that but more likely it will be doing trade fairs and expos; and one gets to meet an exciting range of people. Always take your z card as there are many spin offs. Likewise if you are comfortable modelling nude the best training and way of earning a living is via Art institutions. It isn't seedy and one gets really appreciated if you are good at it. Often the artists you model for will also need models for their own artist studio work, photography, or know photographers. So again there is lots of spin off work. The skills you learn will also be useful to photographers here who seek nude models for artistic work. I wrote a piece about it here. https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=789626 There is a lot of paid nude work but be careful: if you do want to do other types of modelling then certain types of nude work can be damaging. I have lost the odd gig once the boutique found out I'd done nude. Others are fine with it because they can see what I have done is artistic rather than pornographic. Then there was the route I took which gets me a fair bit of paid work modelling fashion even at my height. That is fitting modelling. Often there are not height restrictions of this. The main company I worked for have had 5ft 3" models and their current one in my size is 5ft 10". As I looked at a lot of fitting modelling castings before I took the main one I did, I also know that height if specified at all tends to be lower than normal fashion modelling. Again some people here will look down their snotty noses at fit models. They assume that it just means standing around being bored having pins stuck in you. I was never once bored when I did it and it was a very glamorous environment and I felt valued by the designers: the thing a fit model has over a tailor's dummy is we can speak and move so our input if valuable and because the clothes are designed on the model's body then you can end up doing showroom and fashion shows and trade fairs alongside top models. Again I have written a piece about fit modelling here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=789480 Again the skills you learn through this are of great value to small boutiques and designers when they have showroom events, small fashion shows etc. They need models who can demonstrate the clothes to their clients. When one has done fit modelling one starts learning about drape and cut etc. Small boutiques and designers would rather have a shorter model who is enthusiastic and knows what she is talking about and doesn't cost a fortune than booking models through an agency. So then they use you in their small magazine ads etc and then one may get the occasional lifestyle or newspaper fashion editorial. It's only small stuff, but it's paid and one can build a good reputation so others want to use you. Then there are all sorts of niche modelling things which if you have an interest in and excel at can get you a fair bit of paid work. Yesterday for example I did a paid shoot for a gothic clothing company. They have used models before of all sizes. Similarly, I am modelling for a milliner at a fashion showroom and burlesque event next week. The models are 5ft 2", 5ft 7" and 5ft 6"(myself). What we have that other models don't is exceptional vintage style wardrobe. Also of course, height may not be a factor in modelling things like millinery and jewellery. Then as someone has already mentioned there is cosplay. Again this is something some here sneer at but it's great fun and you can end up being paid for it. I was at a comicon the other day and there was a fabulous pro cosplay model who was barely 5ft. But she was brilliant. Again she had the wardrobe for it and tons of energy. If cosplay is an interest then go to events and take your z card. Hand them out to stall holders, organisers and enthusiasts who are involved. This may lead to work and also tf costume shoots. There were also many lookalike models. A friend of mine is a lookalike model (Naomi Campbell) and she gets lots of work. She is tall obviously but the Kylie Minogue lookalike models aren't! Then there are things like pin up and alternative/tattoo stuff etc. Also if you have a performance skill be it acrobatics or burlesque or ballet these can help you get other types of modelling and some of such skills will also be useful for the odd bit of fashion work. Particularly if you reach the level of having a fan base or being known to the public (eg one exceptional model here fronts a rock band). Others may get modelling work through blogging. At the very least bloggers can get sent free clothing from designers. There are in particular a number of bloggers doing rather well through blogging about outsize fashion for example. So your fan base can be important to potential clients. So find your niche while not getting stuck in it so you can do a broad range and you will not have trouble finding work if you are enthusiastic and hard working. That may not be in fashion magazines but that is just a tiny tip of an iceberg of modelling that some photographers here don't know exists. In fact only a small part of a professional model's work will come from photographers. When one does get gigs paid for by the photographer it is often because he has a third party client too and if he/she does he will want someone who he knows he can rely on. There are also many good photographers who once you have established a good working relationship with will value you and prefer to use you than an unknown quantity who may not even turn up, or look down their nose at the small studio provincial photographer. I hear constantly from such that they would rather have a short model who will bust a gut because they value their vision or appreciate the small boutique/designer client rather than a taller model who'd rather be shooting editorial. Of course however there are just as many tall girls who are also enthusiastic and hard working so it is still extremely competitive and our rate of success at castings is going to be lower than a taller girl. So when you have a photographer client you work well with no matter how small the job they offer you look after them and they will look after you. Liase too with whoever in your area may require models from hairdressing salons to boutiques to small designer. This can be via pounding the streets with your z card once you have a few fashion oriented shots in your port or via the search facility here. The latter isn't rocket science but many photographers seem to focus on searching for models cheap rather than searching for potential clients here in the designer section. I can't believe they don't but those models who take up the initiative (as long as you have a good photographer to work with) can often get work or great wardrobe to shoot while other photographers are raiding charity shops for wardrobe with no real appreciation of fashion/styling. True that the models they are using at a taller height can look good in a bin bag...but there is also a role for those models who are shorter and can do their own styling and source designers/boutiques to shoot for. This can be particularly important re the alternative/retro/goth/niche designers and boutiques who like to work with models that project the image they'd like associated with their product in their advertising and their own events and other public events. So for example I know jockeys who are shorter who do a fair bit of modelling for companies making clothing for equestrian activities; and models who have an exquisitely developed retro look modelling for vintage style lingerie and fashion companies. So my tip to you would be to ignore much of the 'advice' here , get on and enjoy it, build your port and don't turn your nose up at things like small designers, boutiques, hair modelling promo etc. and the paid work will come as you build your craft. Then in no time you will be getting paid gigs while those telling you you can't are left looking foolish. While the 'dream' many have of modelling being well paid and glamorous and easy and being on the front covers of magazines may be a fallacy for all bar an elite, for those who are prepared to work hard - and it is physically demanding if you are doing it right - it is possible to become a journeyman model whatever your height. I find a day's modelling more physically demanding than digging science trenches in ice in the arctic in sub zero temperatures so that is how exhausting it can be. If you have the determination to overcome that - and the simple fact it is much more difficult for shorter models - then it is possible. Ok we may not get on magazine covers but there is plenty of modelling work to be mopped up that agency models won't look at. Good luck!
Model
Nicolette
Posts: 12718
Houston, Texas, US
I'm 5'3" and I've made a living modeling. Yes, I shot nude.
But that's not all I shot, nor is it all I got paid for.
Work your ass off. Shoot like you've got something to prove [because you do].
Good things come to those willing to fight for it.
Good luck!
Model
Skyler Bleu
Posts: 527
San Jose, California, US
I'm a petite model and I've had no problem finding modeling gigs and I have also been offered various paid gigs, some that I've taken and others that I haven't taken. Only one of those gigs that I was offered (I didn't take it) was a nude gig. Like someone said a good model is a good model height does not matter. Don't let shallow people or photographers put you down. You're work is excellent keep it up
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 16713
Orlando, Florida, US
It appears you do a bit of Cosplay. Focus on that.
If you're not 5'10" and with perfect agency stats, getting paid to model is a bit like being a used car salesman, except you're selling yourself. You have to get very good at learning your strengths, enhancing them, and then learning your weaknesses and compensating for them.
There are PLENTY of under 5'7" models who actually do this as a career and make a pretty good living doing it. Networking is one of the keys. Treating it like a REAL JOB is another. If you're not spending 4 hours a day on average looking for the jobs and answering the casting calls, you're not going to do very well.
Use craiglist to find contacts. Do as much promo modeling as you can. Even if you KNOW you don't qualify for castings here, answer them, and with more than "interested". Get a Twitter, an Instagram, and a facebook model page and be active on them.
DON'T use them as a megaphone to bitch about crap.
And if you book a shoot, even if it's just something to build your portfolio for trade, be sure to make it. It's work. Treat it like work.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Images by MR wrote:
My advice is continue modelling as a hobby & have fun +1
There is really no such thing in the agency world as a 'petite' model even though a few (and I mean a very few) smaller agencies may have what they call a 'petite' division. If you loot at them, they're normally girls 5'5" - 5'7" not 5'4"
Yes, I know it's only an inch but agencies really do care. An excellent model I've worked with a couple of times was recently rejected by an agency for being an inch too short even though they loved her look and her work etc.. They knew they simply would not be able to book enough work for her at that height to make it worth their (or her) while so they passed.
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Good Egg Productions wrote:
It appears you do a bit of Cosplay. Focus on that.
If you're not 5'10" and with perfect agency stats, getting paid to model is a bit like being a used car salesman, except you're selling yourself. You have to get very good at learning your strengths, enhancing them, and then learning your weaknesses and compensating for them.
There are PLENTY of under 5'7" models who actually do this as a career and make a pretty good living doing it. Networking is one of the keys. Treating it like a REAL JOB is another. If you're not spending 4 hours a day on average looking for the jobs and answering the casting calls, you're not going to do very well.
Use craiglist to find contacts. Do as much promo modeling as you can. Even if you KNOW you don't qualify for castings here, answer them, and with more than "interested". Get a Twitter, an Instagram, and a facebook model page and be active on them.
DON'T use them as a megaphone to bitch about crap.
And if you book a shoot, even if it's just something to build your portfolio for trade, be sure to make it. It's work. Treat it like work. You know plenty of under 5'7" non nude models who do this as a career? Really? Like who? I don't mean to go at you but I'm curious. Its very hard for freelance non nude models. How do they find reliable work? A model has made I'm guessing a slap at me here. I have no ideal what the OP is capable of. However I do know that in Denver, Colo. people struggle for regular work much less modeling or acting. I have family in Denver and Aurora. That doesn't mean not to try. It does mean being practical and realistic. As an aside and these last few points aren't for you, Good Egg. Just because someone tells you that they were a successful model or dancer or educator , etc. Doesn't make it true and even if so that is their reality and life.
The sad part about this is petite models see threads like these and think all they need to really do is just work harder. Some are conned into spending serious money on a lie. That again isn't to say not try. However promo work as in handing out samples, etc is not modeling. Craiglist, Backpage, OMP and here are for fun but if you are looking to actually pay rent, eat, buy clothes and bills... You better get a REAL JOB.
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 16713
Orlando, Florida, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
You know plenty of under 5'7" non nude models who do this as a career? Really? Like who? I don't mean to go at you but I'm curious. Its very hard for freelance non nude models. How do they find reliable work? A model has made I'm guessing a slap at me here. I have no ideal what the OP is capable of. However I do know that in Denver, Colo. people struggle for regular work much less modeling or acting. I have family in Denver and Aurora. That doesn't mean not to try. It does mean being practical and realistic. As an aside and these last few points aren't for you, Good Egg. Just because someone tells you that they were a successful model or dancer or educator , etc. Doesn't make it true and even if so that is their reality and life.
The sad part about this is petite models see threads like these and think all they need to really do is just work harder. Some are conned into spending serious money on a lie. That again isn't to say not try. However promo work as in handing out samples, etc is not modeling. Craiglist, Backpage, OMP and here are for fun but if you are looking to actually pay rent, eat, buy clothes and bills... You better get a REAL JOB. The OP said she wasn't afraid of nudes.
I know personally several girls under 5'7" who do this professionally and support themselves in L.A. But, yes... they do nudes.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Good Egg Productions wrote:
The OP said she wasn't afraid of nudes.
I know personally several girls under 5'7" who do this professionally and support themselves in L.A. But, yes... they do nudes. "...although I have no issue with nudes, that is not the path I am interested in taking. " In addition she has NO nudes checked on her profile. I take people at their word. That's not what she seems to want to do. However even with nudes in Denver it may be difficult. The models who seem to do well travel. Yet one who has been published in several magazines here on this site was hustling to find photographers to bunk with. This is a BEAUTIFUL model. She's been on several covers. Cities like LA and NY have photographers from around the world coming there so a attractive woman who does nudes might do well. I do recall one of our better known art nude models admitting one year to only making around $24,000. Not too bad when added to a part time job. Not good as your only income and she has a child.
With that said. I shot a African model who's around 5'6" who did a hair ad, another petite model did a billboard. I don't want to dissuade anyone from trying their best but unless you are signed with a agency of some sort and get very lucky non nude paid work at 5'4" in Denver may not happen.
Model
D A N I
Posts: 4627
Little Rock, Arkansas, US
I wouldn't worry about an agency. Even with one, there's no guarantee work. Work hard and sell yourself. If they like you, they'll hire you regardless of height.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Well let's see shall we? Here are some paid gigs mostly non nude in your area this week that don't specify height. https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/184 … range=1.00 https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/183 … range=1.00 https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/1820311? https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/1817104? Now this is a nude gig but its for photography classes at a college. Get nude gigs like that there is no question of impropriety and no model release generally needed and regular work. The college is also likely to have art classes and so there may be further work in that field. This is true of almost EVERY educational institution that does art/photography in the western world. So you don't have to do the pervy stuff. https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/1823921? In addition there are hundreds of tf gigs being offered which don't specify height. Most of those people are going to be twiddling their thumbs come their shoot day because the truth is that if it come to a choice between earning $140 a day at an art class with no come back (ie no pics of you nude all over the net) and respectability guaranteed, or $200 a day doing promo work at say a Denver trade fair, or doing tf even with a great photographer, money is going to speak. For those who only model part time then they are not going to skip a paid job at the restaurant or Uni or the office. SO the truth is that many of those offering tf will pay the right model, even if it's only a token some. YES you have to put up with the 'who the hell do you think you are I advertised tf' brigade, but just as often you can strike a deal. So they may say offer you $50 plus travel plus pictures or something. Now you can do this in every major metropolitan area and get a reasonable amount of gigs weekly just on castings here which don't specify height. And remember, because people read these guys on here saying...'hey you can get models on MM for free' they try it on. Of course they regularly fail miserably because the truth is most models have employment commitments be they modelling or other. So it is always worth applying for tf jobs too and haggling. Simply they aren't going to pay if they can get a model free. And why should they if they are good and many of us need pictures for our ports. But sometimes they don't get a model that is keen and they risk flakes when they don't pay. As models do drop people if they get offered a paid gig. Now I can't stress this strongly enough. If you do nude shoots make sure that they don't come back and bite you on the arse. I have been very selective and nude shoots have only taken up a tiny percentage of my paid shoots. Still however potential employers can get nervous. I know a promo agency guy who immediately sacks any girl whose body appears nude on the net or in a publication. And those girls get very well paid so is it worth it for a one off photography gig? Likewise boutiques nearly always ask me if I have shot nude. I explain that I was a model at Art institutions and about 50% of that was nude and I also did a small amount of art based photography. Even that was too much for one boutique. So nude work can actually cost you work in the long term. Be sure that it is something you want to specialise in and be selective with your photographers. The photographers here chipping in are fashion oriented. It is true shorter models don't get a shot at that often. So their advice is based on a limited field of experience in modelling. They aren't generally even going to pay taller models when they can get them tf. So I think they assume that who the hell will pay shorter ones. I have given a number of avenues open to shorter models and other shorter models have also contributed with their experience. Plus the castings on MM alone show that there are...albeit a few a week...paid castings for non nude shorter models. I am modelling with a 5ft 2" model next week. I have modelled alongside many before. It's millinery and jewellery and the clients want a vintage look ready styled. I also picked up a cosplay gig for later in the year the other day and that is working with a shorter model paid at a convention. Because of the focus on fashion editorial modelling here by some photographers, who sneer at this type of work, they will always say that is 'not proper modelling'. Well I don't know what I did for three years but I never was short of paid work and even now I can be highly selective. I happen to enjoy shooting in £5k costumes from movies and many actresses they were made for were not tall. I haven't done much in the way of promo modelling but done a bit at events for various companies. I could have done a hell of a lot more but my diary was simply too full. Colleagues I modelled with in London do a lot. I am not sure if the photographers here ever go to trade fairs etc but almost every stand has models working there. The truth is that is the sort of gig that makes up most journeyman models gigs and height is not such a factor. And don't let anyone say it's somehow 'lowly' either. Those events are generally buzzing and it's great for networking. Every industry has such trade fairs from horse racing to kitchen products to jewellery etc. I was offered a very nice gig in Basel Siwtzerland a couple of years back for a watch company for example though my commitments to my fashion house employer meant I couldn't take it. They approached me via seeing my port here and they just wanted someone with an English accent who was classy looking. £800 plus flights and expenses. Hardly handing out flyers in bars. A couple of model acquaintances had a great time doing promo at the Eurovision song contest a few months back. So if you want to do fashion then yes the opportunities are limited, But they are also limited for taller models too. But that doesn't stop you working with boutiques and niche fashion companies. If they like you they will use you. Height can be a factor but in this kind of work I am often the tallest at 5ft 6"at things like provincial boutique fashion shows, showroom at wine and cheese evenings, niche fashion trade fairs, events (eg I do the races) that kind of thing. Then you will get to shoot the little ads they put in regional magazines if they like you. I don't give a shot if some guys here think it isn't proper modelling because it isn't in Dazed and Confused or Vogue. That kind of work often doesn't pay very much except at top level anyway. All the kind of work I am describing is stuff agencies won't generally consider being in the market for. Unless they are specialist agencies like character model agencies or lookalike agencies. Which are possible avenues open to you as well as the promotional model agencies. Yes it is true you may only earn about $25k a year if that. And to do that you have to be able to juggle your timetable and honour commitments. But it isn't difficult if you live in a metropolitan area and don't mind doing a variety of types of modelling work perhaps also specialising in one; and aren't dreaming about fashion mag work.
Model
Anna Adrielle
Posts: 18763
Antwerp, Antwerp, Belgium
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
Well let's see shall we?
Here are some paid gigs mostly non nude in your area this week that don't specify height.
https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/184 … range=1.00
https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/183 … range=1.00
https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/182 … pe=casting for&m_search_type[]=0&cc_country=US&cc_state=4087&cc_city=2738249&search_mile_range=1.00&search_start_date=&search_end_date=&c_compensation[]=2&c_compensation_amount=&search_mm_name=&search_keyword=&search_sortby=dateadded
https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/181 … earch_type[]=0&cc_country=US&cc_state=4087&cc_city=2738249&search_mile_range=1.00&search_start_date=&search_end_date=&c_compensation_amount=&c_compensation[]=2&c_18[]=&search_mm_id=&search_keyword=&search_details=&show_expired=&search_sortby=dateadded& first one is for a calendar in bodypaint (all 4 pictures he has in his portfolio in similar style are of girls who are nude or at least topless with bodypaint on, you can clearly see nipples). OP doesn't do nude.
second pays 25 bucks (how much will she lose in transportation cost?)
third one requires long blonde hair and says pay is "negotiable"
4th one doesn't actually pay, but gives a lingerieproduct worth 50 bucks as a form of payment (which is nice, okay, but it doesn't pay rent either). part of what he's looking for is "implied nudes", which the OP has stated she's not interested in doing.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Anna Adrielle wrote:
first one is for a calendar in bodypaint (all 4 pictures he has in his portfolio in similar style are of girls who are nude or at least topless with bodypaint on, you can clearly see nipples). OP doesn't do nude.
second pays 25 bucks (how much will she lose in transportation cost?)
third one requires long blonde hair and says pay is "negotiable"
4th one doesn't actually pay, but gives a lingerieproduct worth 50 bucks as a form of payment (which is nice, okay, but it doesn't pay rent either). part of what he's looking for is "implied nudes", which the OP has stated she's not interested in doing. I don't see she wasn't interested in doing implied nudes. Hell who doesn't do implied nudes? Op in fact says she doesn't mind doing nudes but wants to look at other avenues. The first bodypaint says non nude. It may be, maybe not. Plenty on display at comicons and trade fairs etc who aren't nude. If it's for a calendar, nude will extremely limit sales opps in normal retail outlets. So I am taking them at their word.
Yes I applied for a £25 job about a month ago and said not doing it for that but...and ended up with a lot more.. This is MM - where EVERYONE now says hey you don't have to pay models on here! But of course they will for the right model after they get all that flaking nonsense. Same with the lingerie one. This is a market....and people haggle. They will offer low you will say 'if you have trouble casting this I am available at x amount, and often meet in the middle. Most of my best paid gigs have been 'negotiable'. Stuff plus money plus travel expenses is great!
As for long blonde hair - that is up to the op. I choose to keep my hair red but often get asked would I dye it or wear a wig. I even got cast for a job where very short black hair was requested. They looked at a few models but then decided I would be ok with hair up. So there things aren't written in stone - by a long shot. True you get moaning minnies on here saying 'can't models read casting calls' but if you stick to the spec religiously it would extremely limit the jobs one gets. In almost every casting I have got I fall short on height hair colour or something.
Photographer
Glenn Hall - Fine Art
Posts: 452
Townsville, Queensland, Australia
Images by MR wrote:
In the real world of modelling you're considered short & not even close to being petite.
My advice is continue modelling as a hobby & have fun I was going to say something similar, albeit with a spread of smoother butter.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Tony Lawrence wrote:
You know plenty of under 5'7" non nude models who do this as a career? Really? Like who? I don't mean to go at you but I'm curious. Its very hard for freelance non nude models. How do they find reliable work? A model has made I'm guessing a slap at me here. I have no ideal what the OP is capable of. However I do know that in Denver, Colo. people struggle for regular work much less modeling or acting. I have family in Denver and Aurora. That doesn't mean not to try. It does mean being practical and realistic. As an aside and these last few points aren't for you, Good Egg. Just because someone tells you that they were a successful model or dancer or educator , etc. Doesn't make it true and even if so that is their reality and life.
The sad part about this is petite models see threads like these and think all they need to really do is just work harder. Some are conned into spending serious money on a lie. That again isn't to say not try. However promo work as in handing out samples, etc is not modeling. Craiglist, Backpage, OMP and here are for fun but if you are looking to actually pay rent, eat, buy clothes and bills... You better get a REAL JOB. I have answered this for you fifty times at least. It's not hard to find modelling work if one has a brain which makes up for lack of inches. Of course you don't accept that promo fit and so on are real modelling but If MM is going to be exclusively for fashion models then why do they have all those other genres? Of course I get told constantly that you are fed up of hearing about fit but many of the girls who start these threads don't know about it. Also you look at how many photographers tick 'fit' as a genre so obviously many of them don't know what it is either.
I AM GETTING PRETTY SICK AND TIRED FRANKLY OF HEARING YOU PUT DOWN PROMO MODELS CONSTANTLY AS THOUGH THEY ARE LOW LIFES. I know even magazine editorial models who are tall that rely on this for bread and butter and have a great time doing it. For most girls who pay photographers or shoot tf this is EXACTLY why they need pictures to sell themselves for promo modelling. They aren't dreaming of being in Vogue.
Promo modelling IS an option here and most girls use their ports to get such work. There is nothing wrong with it. Stop sneering down your nose at such. You have constantly come in these forums and slagged off short models and model mayhem models in general. You hang around here just to say it saying you'd prefer to get models from the bus stop.
This isn't a bus stop.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
I have answered this for you fifty times at least. It's not hard to find modelling work if one has a brain which makes up for lack of inches. Of course you don't accept that promo fit and so on are real modelling but If MM is going to be exclusively for fashion models then why do they have all those other genres? Of course I get told constantly that you are fed up of hearing about fit but many of the girls who start these threads don't know about it. Also you look at how many photographers tick 'fit' as a genre so obviously many of them don't know what it is either.
I AM GETTING PRETTY SICK AND TIRED FRANKLY OF HEARING YOU PUT DOWN PROMO MODELS CONSTANTLY AS THOUGH THEY ARE LOW LIFES. I know even magazine editorial models who are tall that rely on this for bread and butter and have a great time doing it. For most girls who pay photographers or shoot tf this is EXACTLY why they need pictures to sell themselves for promo modelling. They aren't dreaming of being in Vogue.
Promo modelling IS an option here and most girls use their ports to get such work. There is nothing wrong with it. Stop sneering down your nose at such. You have constantly come in these forums and slagged off short models and model mayhem models in general. You hang around here just to say it saying you'd prefer to get models from the bus stop.
This isn't a bus stop. Well, I'm sick of you spreading misinformation on this site and your oblique attacks on me. The OP doesn't live in London. She may not be in with in the' in' crowd. I've been too Denver, CO. and any modeling work there beyond nudes for petite or even agency standard models is limited at best. I have friends who do promotions. Handing out liquor samples or key chains at nightclubs isn't modeling. Most of the work advertised on sites like Craigslist is pornography or nude or TF. That said I did say the OP should try. She should contact local agencies. She should look here for work or OMP or Craigslist. However relying on any of that to live on and pay real world bills in freaking DENVER, CO. is idiotic.
Some of our less frequent readers may be curious about your bus stop reference. Several months ago a question was posed by a model. I said that I have found wonderful models while waiting at bus stops. Two are on my profile. The debate was about paid vs. TF models. So its clear. I never said that petite models can't find work. I am saying that its limited unless and sometimes when they don't do nudes. I never said not too try. I did say to be practical and realistic. Frankly, I think its irresponsible to tell aspiring models that there is plenty of paid work when people struggle to find ANY work at all. I think its horrible of you to out right lie to these ladies when actual agencies struggle for work for their models and that includes promotions. Because in general those jobs are booked through agencies. Not agency standard models per se.
Feel free to reply with your usual novel length retort. I won't read it but I think it makes you feel better writing them.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Well, I'm sick of you spreading misinformation on this site and your oblique attacks on me. The OP doesn't live in London. She may not be in with in the' in' crowd. I've been too Denver, CO. and any modeling work there beyond nudes for petite or even agency standard models is limited at best. I have friends who do promotions. Handing out liquor samples or key chains at nightclubs isn't modeling. Most of the work advertised on sites like Craigslist is pornography or nude or TF. That said I did say the OP should try. She should contact local agencies. She should look here for work or OMP or Craigslist. However relying on any of that to live on and pay real world bills in freaking DENVER, CO. is idiotic.
Some of our less frequent readers may be curious about your bus stop reference. Several months ago a question was posed by a model. I said that I have found wonderful models while waiting at bus stops. Two are on my profile. The debate was about paid vs. TF models. So its clear. I never said that petite models can't find work. I am saying that its limited unless and sometimes when they don't do nudes. I never said not too try. I did say to be practical and realistic. Frankly, I think its irresponsible to tell aspiring models that there is plenty of paid work when people struggle to find ANY work at all. I think its horrible of you to out right lie to these ladies when actual agencies struggle for work for their models and that includes promotions. Because in general those jobs are booked through agencies. Not agency standard models per se.
Feel free to reply with your usual novel length retort. I won't read it but I think it makes you feel better writing them. You have found 'subjects' at bus stops not models, unless they are already models.
A good photographer can teach a lay person how to model true but it will take time. We do this stuff for a living because we are already good at it.
Many of us do promotional modelling. For a living, or part of a living. Some jobs are less glamorous than other true but if you are telling me that they don't have trade fairs in Denver where there are well paid promo gigs that is ludicrous. Denver isn't a complete backwater is it? EVERY trade fair have dozens of models working at them. There is nothing worng with this work and it does pay bills. As I stated, many models get the odd paid photography gig but this accounts for the bulk of their work; just like many of you may apsire to shoot fashion but it seldom pays well and is also very competitive so you guys end up doing weddings. Nothing wrong with that either. Would be irrisponsible for me to suggest because you photographers can't get published in fashion mags then it is impossible to make a living as a photographer.
Denver also has Art institutions I imagine, and boutiques and hair salons a plenty. True there may be more work of a fitting nature in cities which have more of a fashion pedigree than Denver. But there will be the odd one. Anybody making fashion of any quality in any city will need fit models. These are needed in all shapes and sizes. A brief google reveals for example that Pearl Izumi in Louisville Colorado were looking for a fit model in both tall land shorter sizes (5ft 5" for the shorter) in January. Yes it's cycle wear. So what if it pays and then you have fit experience and a reference to show to another fashion manufacturer.
Then here is a promo model agency in Denver. Note the heights are wide ranging:
http://pushmodels.com/denver-colorado-promo-models.php
To get that type of gig with an agency one will have to do some good portfolio work tf. While the op may not get fashion work, it wouldn't hurt here to have some nice wardrobe shots in her port to get taken on by such an agency.
It is true that it is competitive I never said it wasn't. But a lot of models with agencies do sit back and wait. When the work comes in it is often well paid but the gigs aren't regular. Some girls get very liitle work so even they end up doing promo or other jobs. In the meantime while wiating for the odd plum agency job those girls too will be looking at castings here and pounding the streets and craigslist etc for gigs. And if a model wants to make a living then the likelihood is that most professional journeyman models do not turn their nose up at promo. So for you to put them down and say it's handing out keyfobs shows a gros underestimation of the sheer amount and range of promo work available. And yes much of that promo work will be handled by agencies but there is often no height restriction. What they want is people who are good at modelling but also good at liasing with the public.
The MM site disgarees with your assesment of promotional modelling anyway. NOWHERE ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY ONLY FASHION AND EDITORIAL MODELLING IS 'REAL' MODELLING AND THERE ARE MANY OPTIONS. Promo is an option here of what we are interested in. Most of us have done it and the experiences will of course wary but it is nice coming home after a few days put up in a decent hotel at a trade fair and having a nice cheque. It is decent honest work, if one is good at it it can become regular, and there can be many spin offs. It is at all levels too. So yes some jobs may be handing out free samples but others may be working at a classic car event or a big jewellery fair or a sporting event actually being photographed, talking with potential clients and hostessing.
Your problem is Tony assuming we all want to be fashion models in magazines. We don't. We just want paid work and find out how to get it. I know for a fact the information I have given in forums has been of help to models; not least to the model who followed in my footsteps at the fashion house where I worked. Yes it's London. Yes if you want full time modeling work like that you have to be in a city assocaited with it. No there is none of that kind of work in hicksville. But Denver is not hicksville.
As for being in with the 'in' crowd.....one doesn't just fall into that one grafts at it and gets in with them precisely because one is good at one's craft.
I wouldn't put any illusions in the op's mind. She won't get much mag work and what she does get will be lifestyle and regional and niche mag work probably - but who does apart from the elite? BUT if she wants to do the less glamorous journeyman type modelling that may of us do and aren't ashamed of it if she is hard working there is no reason she can't get the odd job. That may or may not blossom into full time work. Getting regular repeat modelling jobs - either with a promo agency or art instututions or designers/boutiques - is essential to any freelance model. We simply are not reliant on photographers. Once we have a decent port and work hard at getting those repeat gigs from other clients one can eek out a small living and be respected for it. By all apparently other than some snot nosed photographers who say it isn't real modelling.
Yes it is obvious you don't read my replies. Because otherwise I wouldn't have to repeat myself so much.
People can take your advice of course and hang around the bus stop or get another job. Or they can take mine and maybe, just maybe get basic journeyman modelling work enough to make a living on. Plenty of us here have or do.
Just perhaps that may be of relevance and help to some not looking at getting in fashion magazines but just get paid for doing what they are good at. And if being in an advert for a retro or goth clothing company, a hair salon, or doing regular events for a small boutique or doing a gig for a sci fi merchandise company or promo modelling for a mobile phone company and getting paid for it is what they want to do then height is not necessarily a barrier. Working out how to get those gigs is the only barrier. That and photographers who think fashion is the only modelling that is 'real' [sic].
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8093
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
This forum is full of people who will try to tell you you can't model if you aren't 5ft 10" or something.
This is utter bullshit and geared to putting down models so they think the only work they can get is tf or nude. Before I dive neck-deep into these diatribes of yours, I think it's significant to understand that there are many different types of modeling out there, as you so "gracefully" have pointed out. However, for models wishing to be paid, a significant portion of available, paying jobs go to models who are taller and who meet agency standards. This isn't something to be taken anywhere near as lightly as you are suggesting people should. I book models routinely for different jobs and I can assure you, height is a significant factor in hiring models for jobs on AND off the runway. Because you are on the other side of the door on all of this means you may not see it, but I can assure you, it's there. I'll give you a perfect example. I'm working on a project right now where I'm casting bikini models for a paying client (a motorcycle shop). I put out casting calls in numerous locations and got a variety of responses. My client only needs one model and I narrowed it down to three. One brunette and two blondes. I showed the portfolios to my client and he said he definitely preferred a blonde and asked me to choose which one.
Now, both of these girls looked as though they could be sisters. They both had the same hair color, the same quality portfolios, same basic measurements, etc. The only difference was their heights. One was 5'4", the other 5'7". Looking at the two, I went with the taller one. Why? Because that 3 inches of height makes a difference on camera. Her legs are going to look longer in shots and her body dimensions posing against or on a motorcycle is going to be different. Chances are, even if the taller model didn't have as much experience or as much of a well-rounded portfolio as the shorter model, I still would have gone with the taller one. Now, when I cut the shorter model, I'm not going to hurt her feelings and tell her this, I'm just going to tell her that the client preferred another model and life moves on. So now the shorter model never knew it was because she was shorter. These types of scenarios play out way, WAY more than you realize as a model and it's because you just aren't privy to the decision making process that us casting agents or photographers are. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
So you can stomp your feet all you like, that doesn't change reality. Don't get me wrong, I've worked with some amazing < 5'7" models...many of them are in my portfolio, but for paid, professional work, there are countless reasons why taller models are preferred. Might I suggest you read this website:
www.newmodels.com
Most specifically, this page here:
http://www.newmodels.com/height.html
A good model is a good model whatever her height. LOL...I think your nose just grew some with that statement.
I am only 5ft 6" but have modelled runway alongside Premier agency models for a major fashion house. Good for you. Out of curiosity, how many times? A dozen? Two dozen? My bet is, the amount of times you've been paid to do runway work at 5'6" is about as many as I can count on one hand and that' s a pretty impossible way to make a living from modeling.
This is Isaiah Thomas...
![https://www.nba.com/media/act_isaiah_thomas.jpg]()
He currently plays for the Sacramento Kings NBA team. He is 5'9" tall in a sport where the average height is about 6'8". He is the exception to the rule just like Devon Aoki and Dean Johnson. Two EXTREMELY rare exceptions to the height rule for agency models. We can all go out and dig up exceptions to the rule but that doesn't make the rule a myth, a fraud, or any way not the standard. People are always trying to chisel away at the norm in agencies to make themselves feel better but the reality is, the norm isn't changing any time soon and if it did, it doesn't necessarily make it for the better.
Years ago I was in a live-in relationship with a showgirl here in Vegas. You live here too so maybe this will resonate a bit. The show she was in was Jubilee at Bally's, the last of the big old Vegas shows. The cast has over 100 dancers in it (about 80 of which are women) and it's a topless show. Some of the costumes the dancers have to wear weigh in at over 75 pounds with the headdress, backpack, waist pack, and shoes. I remember when she came home one night in tears because she got a notice for being overweight...she was 5'9" and weighed in one night at 129 pounds and was told she had 30 days to drop 4 pounds. This isn't an easy gig, and if you say you were a showgirl in Jubilee, you pretty much can get a gig dancing anywhere for any show here in Vegas. Now, there are a LOT of shows in Vegas, and most of the dancers in most of those shows are way shorter than 5'8" (the minimum height requirement to be a showgirl in Jubilee). Your average dancer in Vegas is between 5'2 and 5'6".
Part of my girlfriend's frustration with being the show for almost 10 years was she was seeing a transition of talent occur. The show manager was seen that a lot of the girls auditioning for the show either were too short or met the height requirements but couldn't dance for shit. They refused to sway from the height requirement so the show suffered for a while as they were bringing in new dancers who looked the part but had two left feet. In time, they started recruiting more dancers from outside the area but to this day, if you aren't 5'8 or taller, you aren't even considered past the first round of auditions. They post this everywhere too...in the casting calls, on signs outside the audition registration tables, everywhere. "YOU MUST BE A MINIMUM HEIGHT OF 5 FOOT 8 INCHES TALL TO AUDITION FOR THIS SHOW" and yet still there would be some short girls who would try thinking they "would be that one exception that would turn the show upside down!" and it would never happen.
The rules and standards are there for a reason. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but for 99.999% of the other occasions, the rule stands. Documenting a few, very rare examples of an exception does not reinforce the reality that the rules aren't changing based on that one exception. Now, you can respect that and deal with that reality or you can stomp your feet and throw a tantrum. Either way, the rules aren't changing, certainly no time soon.
I am not agency represented. I have NEVER had difficulty finding paid modelling work. But there are many pretentious photographers who have aspirations to being fashion photographers who will tell you you can't do it. Make no bones about it, I have zero desire to become a fashion photographer so please stop painting with your broad brush. I've been shooting professionally since you were still in high school. The first time I had a photo published, you were just coming out of diapers, so I'm no spring chicken to this industry. It's not a matter that the OP is unable to be successful, but we also need to be realistic about her expectations as well. She lives in Denver, Colorado. A beautiful city, but hardly the mecca of the modeling world where job opportunities for models are a common thing. And even if she were to move to Vegas or New York or Los Angeles, she's now in an environment where agency models virtually grow on trees. While there is more competition in the major modeling cities, opportunities are better too, so she might be able to carve out a part of a niche somewhere, but in Denver, it's going to be a major challenge.
Then still more others saying the only way you will get paid is to model nude. OK, time for an Economics 101 lesson for you.
![https://stephansmithfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Supply-and-Demand-Graph.png]()
The demand for 5'6" models is already extremely small. For 5'6" nude models, the demand is much greater. So, by limiting your ability to increase in the supply side, you are inhibiting your ability to meet the demand. It's as simple as that.
It is true that to get with a fashion modelling agency you generally have to be taller. Usually a minimum of 5ft 7" 5ft 8" actually.
You already state you have done some promo modelling. If you are good at that and interacting with people it can lead to regular paid work. Again people here look down their nose at it because it is outside their realm of experience so they think it is handing out leaflets at bars. Sometimes it may be that but more likely it will be doing trade fairs and expos; and one gets to meet an exciting range of people. Promo Modeling is not modeling. It's a term manufactured by the Interwebz. "Promo Modeling" is basically handing out fliers for barely above minimum wage. I know several professional trade-show models who tell me they hate the term "promo modeling" much the same way professionally trained dancers hate it when strippers call themselves "dancers". The two terms are not interchangeable.
Then as someone has already mentioned there is cosplay. Again this is something some here sneer at but it's great fun and you can end up being paid for it. No, not really. Many of my cosplay photos have been published around the world and I can speak from a great deal of experience on this topic. Cosplay shoots don't pay. They just don't. Magazines have little desire to pay for photos and when they do, it's not huge money. One of the models in my portfolio does about 4-6 cosplay shoots a month. She's been published in about every cosplay magazine there is out there and even she'll tell you there is zero money in modeling for cosplay. So please, before you go painting these grandiose pictures of all this available work out there, let's be clear that just because someone, somewhere got paid to model for a cosplay client, doesn't mean that the opportunities for cosplay shoots with paying clients are flying off the shelves in Denver.
Photographer
Liquid Lace Studios
Posts: 198
Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia
Here's a few names of people that are under the ritualistic 5'7" mark that seem to be able to model for magazines and clothing companies including Walmart
Miley Cyrus 5'4"
Natalie Portman 5'3"
Jodie Foster 5'3"
Christina Applegate 5'5"
Regardless that they are big name stars, they've also done plenty of photo shoots without taking everything off !
or should I drive a red car because Ford told me to ?
Photographer
Good Egg Productions
Posts: 16713
Orlando, Florida, US
Liquid Lace Studios wrote:
Here's a few names of people that are under the ritualistic 5'7" mark that seem to be able to model for magazines and clothing companies including Walmart
Miley Cyrus 5'4"
Natalie Portman 5'3"
Jodie Foster 5'3"
Christina Applegate 5'5"
Regardless that they are big name stars, they've also done plenty of photo shoots without taking everything off !
or should I drive a red car because Ford told me to ? Are you kidding??? That is the ONLY reason they're modeling for clothing companies and magazines.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Shot By Adam wrote:
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
This forum is full of people who will try to tell you you can't model if you aren't 5ft 10" or something.
This is utter bullshit and geared to putting down models so they think the only work they can get is tf or nude. Before I dive neck-deep into these diatribes of yours, I think it's significant to understand that there are many different types of modeling out there, as you so "gracefully" have pointed out. However, for models wishing to be paid, a significant portion of available, paying jobs go to models who are taller and who meet agency standards. This isn't something to be taken anywhere near as lightly as you are suggesting people should. I book models routinely for different jobs and I can assure you, height is a significant factor in hiring models for jobs on AND off the runway. Because you are on the other side of the door on all of this means you may not see it, but I can assure you, it's there. I'll give you a perfect example. I'm working on a project right now where I'm casting bikini models for a paying client (a motorcycle shop). I put out casting calls in numerous locations and got a variety of responses. My client only needs one model and I narrowed it down to three. One brunette and two blondes. I showed the portfolios to my client and he said he definitely preferred a blonde and asked me to choose which one.
Now, both of these girls looked as though they could be sisters. They both had the same hair color, the same quality portfolios, same basic measurements, etc. The only difference was their heights. One was 5'4", the other 5'7". Looking at the two, I went with the taller one. Why? Because that 3 inches of height makes a difference on camera. Her legs are going to look longer in shots and her body dimensions posing against or on a motorcycle is going to be different. Chances are, even if the taller model didn't have as much experience or as much of a well-rounded portfolio as the shorter model, I still would have gone with the taller one. Now, when I cut the shorter model, I'm not going to hurt her feelings and tell her this, I'm just going to tell her that the client preferred another model and life moves on. So now the shorter model never knew it was because she was shorter. These types of scenarios play out way, WAY more than you realize as a model and it's because you just aren't privy to the decision making process that us casting agents or photographers are. Sorry, but that's just a fact.
So you can stomp your feet all you like, that doesn't change reality. Don't get me wrong, I've worked with some amazing < 5'7" models...many of them are in my portfolio, but for paid, professional work, there are countless reasons why taller models are preferred. Might I suggest you read this website:
www.newmodels.com
Most specifically, this page here:
http://www.newmodels.com/height.html
A good model is a good model whatever her height. LOL...I think your nose just grew some with that statement.
Good for you. Out of curiosity, how many times? A dozen? Two dozen? My bet is, the amount of times you've been paid to do runway work at 5'6" is about as many as I can count on one hand and that' s a pretty impossible way to make a living from modeling.
This is Isaiah Thomas...
![https://www.nba.com/media/act_isaiah_thomas.jpg]()
He currently plays for the Sacramento Kings NBA team. He is 5'9" tall in a sport where the average height is about 6'8". He is the exception to the rule just like Devon Aoki and Dean Johnson. Two EXTREMELY rare exceptions to the height rule for agency models. We can all go out and dig up exceptions to the rule but that doesn't make the rule a myth, a fraud, or any way not the standard. People are always trying to chisel away at the norm in agencies to make themselves feel better but the reality is, the norm isn't changing any time soon and if it did, it doesn't necessarily make it for the better.
Years ago I was in a live-in relationship with a showgirl here in Vegas. You live here too so maybe this will resonate a bit. The show she was in was Jubilee at Bally's, the last of the big old Vegas shows. The cast has over 100 dancers in it (about 80 of which are women) and it's a topless show. Some of the costumes the dancers have to wear weigh in at over 75 pounds with the headdress, backpack, waist pack, and shoes. I remember when she came home one night in tears because she got a notice for being overweight...she was 5'9" and weighed in one night at 129 pounds and was told she had 30 days to drop 4 pounds. This isn't an easy gig, and if you say you were a showgirl in Jubilee, you pretty much can get a gig dancing anywhere for any show here in Vegas. Now, there are a LOT of shows in Vegas, and most of the dancers in most of those shows are way shorter than 5'8" (the minimum height requirement to be a showgirl in Jubilee). Your average dancer in Vegas is between 5'2 and 5'6".
Part of my girlfriend's frustration with being the show for almost 10 years was she was seeing a transition of talent occur. The show manager was seen that a lot of the girls auditioning for the show either were too short or met the height requirements but couldn't dance for shit. They refused to sway from the height requirement so the show suffered for a while as they were bringing in new dancers who looked the part but had two left feet. In time, they started recruiting more dancers from outside the area but to this day, if you aren't 5'8 or taller, you aren't even considered past the first round of auditions. They post this everywhere too...in the casting calls, on signs outside the audition registration tables, everywhere. "YOU MUST BE A MINIMUM HEIGHT OF 5 FOOT 8 INCHES TALL TO AUDITION FOR THIS SHOW" and yet still there would be some short girls who would try thinking they "would be that one exception that would turn the show upside down!" and it would never happen.
The rules and standards are there for a reason. There will always be exceptions to the rule, but for 99.999% of the other occasions, the rule stands. Documenting a few, very rare examples of an exception does not reinforce the reality that the rules aren't changing based on that one exception. Now, you can respect that and deal with that reality or you can stomp your feet and throw a tantrum. Either way, the rules aren't changing, certainly no time soon.
Make no bones about it, I have zero desire to become a fashion photographer so please stop painting with your broad brush. I've been shooting professionally since you were still in high school. The first time I had a photo published, you were just coming out of diapers, so I'm no spring chicken to this industry. It's not a matter that the OP is unable to be successful, but we also need to be realistic about her expectations as well. She lives in Denver, Colorado. A beautiful city, but hardly the mecca of the modeling world where job opportunities for models are a common thing. And even if she were to move to Vegas or New York or Los Angeles, she's now in an environment where agency models virtually grow on trees. While there is more competition in the major modeling cities, opportunities are better too, so she might be able to carve out a part of a niche somewhere, but in Denver, it's going to be a major challenge.
OK, time for an Economics 101 lesson for you.
![https://stephansmithfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Supply-and-Demand-Graph.png]()
The demand for 5'6" models is already extremely small. For 5'6" nude models, the demand is much greater. So, by limiting your ability to increase in the supply side, you are inhibiting your ability to meet the demand. It's as simple as that.
5ft 8" actually.
Promo Modeling is not modeling. It's a term manufactured by the Interwebz. "Promo Modeling" is basically handing out fliers for barely above minimum wage. I know several professional trade-show models who tell me they hate the term "promo modeling" much the same way professionally trained dancers hate it when strippers call themselves "dancers". The two terms are not interchangeable.
No, not really. Many of my cosplay photos have been published around the world and I can speak from a great deal of experience on this topic. Cosplay shoots don't pay. They just don't. Magazines have little desire to pay for photos and when they do, it's not huge money. One of the models in my portfolio does about 4-6 cosplay shoots a month. She's been published in about every cosplay magazine there is out there and even she'll tell you there is zero money in modeling for cosplay. So please, before you go painting these grandiose pictures of all this available work out there, let's be clear that just because someone, somewhere got paid to model for a cosplay client, doesn't mean that the opportunities for cosplay shoots with paying clients are flying off the shelves in Denver. Cosplay shoots most certainly do pay I get offered stupid money to do them and I turn them down. I am selective. I do the ones that interest me. And they pay. The genre didn't exist a few years ago and now it is growing and growing. Check the castings before you say they don't. Because many of them are 'naff' they can pay well to attract models. I may model original sci fi costumes for pay but I am not modelling fancy dress hop supergirl costumes in a blonde wig but plenty of photographers seem to want to shoot that  But watch this space you shall see. Maybe you are just marketing your work wrong if you aren't getting paid for them or maybe you aren't paying the models and they just are happy to do it for you I don't know. But all I can say is the few I have done I have got paid for, and got photographers falling over me to shoot Sally Jupiter atm. Just have to sort out the wheat from the chaff.
Yiour experience of modelling appears to have been gleaned from heresay and a few naff internet articles.
Mine comes from experience. I have experience in London and I have experience in a backwater. I don't rely on modelling pay now so can be selective but I know many of the models here and how they make their living and they aren't all tall. As I said at many of the fashion events around here I am sometimes the tallest. Of course many will say being a model for a boutique fashion show 'isn't real modelling' too but it suits me thanks and it pays. So I don't have to read internet articles saying I can't do it when I have and do and that is the same for many of the shorter models here. We aren't an 'exception' at journeyman level.
Your assesment of promo modelling in particular is extremely limited. I know lots of girls who do this work and belive me some are very glamorous jobs at big sporting and music events and high profile trade fairs. If you are good at it it pays well and is regular. Again I know a great many promo models and some people who hire. My sister in law used to do it for a mobile phone company at big events - great pay.
I have pointed out many times in these threads just looking at MM castings the paid jobs for modelling gigs that are not nude always outnumber those that are nude. I am not doing it again. Few paid castings here actually specify height or require nudity.
The rules don't need to change on height. You can choose tall models other photographers and clients can choose who they want. I haven't found my height a problem getting paid work and I haven't even done promo modelling or nude photography to any great extent. The latter has been a barrier to getting paid work far more than my height though I will still do it for select photographers.
So...you carry on thinking what you want and us short models will carry on working for pay and you can imagine we are making it up then wonder why so many models on MM dont answer tf requests....
Strange how the demand for 5ft 6" models is so small yet I get no problem getting work....and it's not generally nude. There are plenty of other shorter models who will tell you the same here. But hey you guys know all there is to know about modelling don't you and we professional models need to consult internet articles. Right yeah.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8093
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Liquid Lace Studios wrote:
Here's a few names of people that are under the ritualistic 5'7" mark that seem to be able to model for magazines and clothing companies including Walmart
Miley Cyrus 5'4"
Natalie Portman 5'3"
Jodie Foster 5'3"
Christina Applegate 5'5"
Regardless that they are big name stars, they've also done plenty of photo shoots without taking everything off !
or should I drive a red car because Ford told me to ? And some people hit MegaBucks here in Vegas from time to time but those 5 billion dollar resorts don't build themselves, do they? Your example isn't analogous to the conversation though in any way as all of the people you listed were WORLD FAMOUS ACTRESSES before they started modeling. The last time I looked, the OP didn't have:
A platinum-selling recording artist for a father nor is the OP backed by Disney.
Nor did she have opportunities like:
A child actress who was discovered by world famous director and screen writer Luc Besson.
A child actress who started with Coppertone ads at the age of 3 years old and before she was out of grade-school was performing on the Doris Day Show, Bonanza, and Adam-12 later to be featured in major films before she was even in her teens.
The daughter of a record producer who started doing commercials when she was still in diapers. She later went on to do television roles before she was a teenager and later landing a role in a major television show when she was 15.
What do all of these people have in common? They were all famous long before they started modeling.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Shot By Adam wrote:
And some people hit MegaBucks here in Vegas from time to time but those 5 billion dollar resorts don't build themselves, do they? Your example isn't analogous to the conversation though in any way as all of the people you listed were WORLD FAMOUS ACTRESSES before they started modeling. The last time I looked, the OP didn't have:
A platinum-selling recording artist for a father nor is the OP backed by Disney.
Nor did she have opportunities like:
A child actress who was discovered by world famous director and screen writer Luc Besson
A child actress who started with Coppertone ads at the age of 3 years old and before she was out of grade-school was performing on the Doris Day Show, Bonanza, and Adam-12 later to be featured in major films before she was even in her teens.
The daughter of a record producer who started doing commercials when she was still in diapers. She later went on to do television roles before she was a teenager and later landing a role in a major television show when she was 15.
What do all of these people have in common? They were all famous long before they started modeling. Because of course there are no taller actresses that could have been chosen instead Fact is 'rules' go out of the window if someone has the right look. Nobody would ever say Kylie Minogue looks stupid as a model because she's too short. 'Cause of course there aren't any 5ft 11" world famous actresses.
Talking of Kylie Mynogue, I also talked about lookalike models. So if a shoter model happens to look like someone else they can also nuture that look. I got asked by an agency to do Florence welch but it doesn't interest me. However, one of my friends is a lookalike model. Now as it happens she is tall. But obviously not all lookalike models are tall.
http://www.fakefaces.co.uk/lookalikes.h … ike_id=251
Now I know this lady because she also like myself gets paid to be an ambassador for milliners at the races. Every racecourse in the UK has best dressed ladies comptetitions and these are often won by models such as us. This particular lady won £5k and a trip to st lucia and a year modelling contact for just one of these wins. I have won a number too and get paid to be there. Now she also does a lot of promo modelling. Ask here if she'd be interested in handig out leaflets. That would be the same for the Kylie lookalikes so height is nothing to do with it. Although yes, if you were a photographer shooting fashion then perhaps you'd want her rather than the Kylie one.
I am explaining all this because this is our world. A real one not an internet one. One in which models get paid for a variety of genres and activities that photographers often know squat about.
Yesterday I got a paid job for a gothic clothing company. They don't necessarily use tall models in any of their promotional material. They or photographers cast the models for their look or ability. They could go to an agency and book a stylist but they don't. Firstly because cost is prohibitive, but also they like to use models who have that style for authenticity. This is the same with rtro clothing companies and many other genres. Just the smae as milliners like to women who are interested in racing so they know how everything works and it is convinicing to their clientelle.
As for cosplay I will also add that I am currently working with licensing companies. There is a lot at stake with their investment. At events they want a model not an amateur cosplayer. BUT they also want one that is au fait with the product. So it is something an amateur cosplayer can break into with commitment. Espcially as a lot of ageny models etc won't do it. Think about it. It may actually help you market what you are doing so it becomes wider than just cosplay and there's money in it for you and the models.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
That Italian Guy wrote:
Eliza, could you please fix the ridiculous links in this post which are breaking the formatting of this page!!!!???
https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thre … st18469735
It's hard enough to read some of this stuff without having to scroll left and right on every bloody line!
Thanks!
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com Get a new computer. Looks fine on my phone and my laptop. I just lifted the links. Ask MM to sort that out in the site forum.
Photographer
Shot By Adam
Posts: 8093
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
Get a new computer. Looks fine on my phone and my laptop. I just lifted the links. Ask MM to sort that out in the site forum. What's with you and the attitude? JEEZ!!! It's not just him. This thread is a giant scrolling mess on my screen too and I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that my monitors and everything inside my computer is way more state-of-the-art than your laptop. I'd bet my D800 on it.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Shot By Adam wrote:
What's with you and the attitude? JEEZ!!! It's not just him. This thread is a giant scrolling mess on my screen too and I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that my monitors and everything inside my computer is way more state-of-the-art than your laptop. I'd bet my D800 on it. You'd lose. Not on this one (which also looks ok) but my uni one you'd lose. State of the badass art! Which also looks ok. Also looks ok on my phone. I think it may be a browser issue.
Anyway the op is in denver and she may want to look at them. We will be on page 2 shortly in any case. I don't want to mess up the links and haven't got time to bother to be frank. As I said ask a mod if they can fix it so they still work if you are that bothered. I am not going to fix it for you two when the links are not for you anyway.
Model
JessieLeigh
Posts: 2109
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Fucked up on my work computer as well.
Which is brand new.
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Shot By Adam wrote:
What's with you and the attitude? JEEZ!!! It's not just him. This thread is a giant scrolling mess on my screen too and I can assure you, with 100% certainty, that my monitors and everything inside my computer is way more state-of-the-art than your laptop. I'd bet my D800 on it. It might be your browser. I have no problem.
Model
Elisa 1
Posts: 3344
Monmouth, Wales, United Kingdom
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
It might be your browser. I have no problem. Nor mine - any one of the three inc my phone. I know what they mean because I had a different laptop before and sometimes long links or big pics meant I had to adjust my zoom. Takes a second. A lot quicker than threadjacking to whine.
EDIT: Ok I altered them and the links still hopefully work. May need Anna to alter her quote. Or it may be your economics lesson image
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
Nor mine - any one of the three inc my phone. I know what they mean because I had a different laptop before and sometimes long links or big pics meant I had to adjust my zoom. Takes a second. A lot quicker than threadjacking to whine. I just went on Internet Explorer and the forum page was not formatted as nicely as Firefox. It was all across the page.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Eliza C new portfolio wrote:
Because of course there are no taller actresses that could have been chosen instead Fact is 'rules' go out of the window if someone has the right look. Nobody would ever say Kylie Minogue looks stupid as a model because she's too short. 'Cause of course there aren't any 5ft 11" world famous actresses.
Talking of Kylie Mynogue, I also talked about lookalike models. So if a shoter model happens to look like someone else they can also nuture that look. I got asked by an agency to do Florence welch but it doesn't interest me. However, one of my friends is a lookalike model. Now as it happens she is tall. But obviously not all lookalike models are tall.
http://www.fakefaces.co.uk/lookalikes.h … ike_id=251
Now I know this lady because she also like myself gets paid to be an ambassador for milliners at the races. Every racecourse in the UK has best dressed ladies comptetitions and these are often won by models such as us. This particular lady won £5k and a trip to st lucia and a year modelling contact for just one of these wins. I have won a number too and get paid to be there. Now she also does a lot of promo modelling. Ask here if she'd be interested in handig out leaflets. That would be the same for the Kylie lookalikes so height is nothing to do with it. Although yes, if you were a photographer shooting fashion then perhaps you'd want her rather than the Kylie one.
I am explaining all this because this is our world. A real one not an internet one. One in which models get paid for a variety of genres and activities that photographers often know squat about.
Yesterday I got a paid job for a gothic clothing company. They don't necessarily use tall models in any of their promotional material. They or photographers cast the models for their look or ability. They could go to an agency and book a stylist but they don't. Firstly because cost is prohibitive, but also they like to use models who have that style for authenticity. This is the same with rtro clothing companies and many other genres. Just the smae as milliners like to women who are interested in racing so they know how everything works and it is convinicing to their clientelle.
As for cosplay I will also add that I am currently working with licensing companies. There is a lot at stake with their investment. At events they want a model not an amateur cosplayer. BUT they also want one that is au fait with the product. So it is something an amateur cosplayer can break into with commitment. Espcially as a lot of ageny models etc won't do it. Think about it. It may actually help you market what you are doing so it becomes wider than just cosplay and there's money in it for you and the models. Eliza, this isn't about you. Your experiences in the UK are unique to you. I assure you Denver, CO is very different. Models in Europe can travel country to country by train or air, cheap. There are magazines, boutiques and stores that might hire you. It is NOT the same here. Especially in somewhat conservative cities and states. As for promos. I know women that do the local festivals, hair and car shows. It tends to be seasonal and other then the hair shows most are not models. Handing out samples or brochures isn't modeling. You mention cosplay. The OP has some of that and that tends to be TF. However you continue to talk about what YOU are doing. This isn't about YOU. It is about a petite model in Denver, CO.
I don't know what she's capable of. I continue to say she should make every effort to see what local agencies think and to look around the web. Sadly there aren't a lot of films and commercials made in Denver. This where height won't be as big a issue. Again, modeling and life in London which is a major market is different then most cities in the US. There is limited money for alternative models. There isn't a lot of money in cosplay. Nobody is paying much for Goth or much beyond middle America commercial work. In fact it isn't high fashion that pays most models. Its catalog.
If you want to discuss modeling in the UK. Then maybe that's fine for another thread. In this one lets focus on opportunities for a petite model in Denver, CO. USA.
Photographer
B R U N E S C I
Posts: 25319
Bath, England, United Kingdom
Jerry Nemeth wrote:
I just went on Internet Explorer and the forum page was not formatted as nicely as Firefox. It was all across the page. For me it's broken in Chrome and IE. Will post in SR.
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com
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But watch this space you shall see. Maybe you are just marketing your work wrong if you aren't getting paid for them or maybe you aren't paying the models and they just are happy to do it for you I don't know. But all I can say is the few I have done I have got paid for, and got photographers falling over me to shoot Sally Jupiter atm. Just have to sort out the wheat from the chaff.