Mel Recker wrote:
You can tell pretty quickly by googling or through IMDB what someone's body of work looks like. Maybe 20 years ago it was more difficult, but now...no. If you can't find someone online...don't work with them. Period. Unless they're a student at a major institution, or a friend. Or a friend of a friend. So on and so forth.

Mel

See, that's silly.   Everyone has to start somewhere.   A new actor, new film maker, new singer, etc.   We all have to have  begin somewhere.   Jay-Z started as a drug dealer and so did members of NWA.   If you hadn't heard of Jay-Z when he started should you not work with him?   When your trying to break into acting or modeling or singing you can't afford to NOT to work with someone because you haven't heard of them.   Lets say Jay-Z had met Rihanna before he became famous.   Should she had trusted him?   Oh well...
You're right don't trust anyone who isn't a big name with a big body of work or a friend of a friend.   Can't be too careful.

Mel Recker wrote:
Why not just say nothing, and ignore any inquiries from people who want them?

I'm pretty sure I know the answer.

I don't think you do.

The real problem with saying nothing (and believe me, I would prefer not to have to mention it) is that you can run into so-called "models" who also say nothing about escorts in their profile but who then turn up at your door with a very suspicious, mouth breathing Neanderthal in tow, who expects to be allowed to to hang around, get in the way, put the model off, wander unsupervised around your house etc., because you made the mistake of not saying "no escorts" in your profile text!

I think it was after that happened to me the second time that I reluctantly put the "no escorts" rider in my profile.



Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

DougBPhoto wrote:
.

best post i've seen in awhile

nyk fury wrote:

best post i've seen in awhile

I thought it was to the point

DougBPhoto wrote:
.

Good point

DougBPhoto wrote:
Mel,

You seem like a pretty smart lady.

It is a shame you can't put the same effort into teaching models how to be safe without an escort.

Instead of encouraging people to use a band-aid, probably better to teach them how to do due diligence and avoid a multitude of issues that increase their odds of a positive experience, instead of simply advocating a bodyguard/babysitter/band-aid.

Well thanks! I don't know all the answers, but I do feel for young models. And absolutely, I hope they have someone in their life who can make sure they're not taking undue risk - that they know how to take care of themselves.

But good talk, guys. All very interesting points/questions raised, I think...all from one little (overdiscussed) question.

Mel Recker wrote:
Actors have the added protection of having something called Breakdown Services which attempts to vet the legitimacy of the jobs first. Also, most of the breakdowns can only be seen by agents and managers - they are not available to the general public. Anything outside of that is very clearly buyer-beware.

Mel

All you need to get the Breakdowns is get a Talent Agency license and there are many Talent Agncies that are scamms. Additionally many Talent Agencies do not screen the legitamacy of the casting, more over many people and companies that are not agencies or agents buy the breakdowns indirectly.

Mel Recker wrote:
Same question for you, Italian Guy - isn't the burden of proof also on you? If it's TFP, the model most certainly can't be the only one who has the burden of vetting, right?

I thought both parties have the burden of vetting the person they are going to potentially work with.

Are you seriously suggesting that photographers should have a burden of proving they are not going to rape or attack the women that pose for them?

Do you assume all men are going to rape you until they prove otherwise, or just the ones with cameras?

It sounds like you think photographers are guilty until proven innocent, or at least the male ones.

How many other occupations do you assume that people are guilty of being likely to rape or exploit you until they somehow prove otherwise to you?

I'm certainly not saying that photographers are all 100% trustworthy, but to assume that they are all guilty until they prove they are innocent seems rather off, especially if you don't have the same guilty until proven innocent attitude towards all other men in the world.

People of both genders need to learn how to spot the good from the bad, and take the necessary steps for them to be safe and not expect or rely on someone else to do that for them.

If someone does not feel safe working with someone, don't work with that person.  If you (broad you) feel you'll be in danger, don't bring people you care about into that situation if you feel it is unsafe.

Mel Recker wrote:
But it's not THAT easy to get a talent agency license, and it can be quite pricey. Same with getting a manager's license.

You can indirectly buy Breakdowns for the same day. Getting A Talent Agency is easy, if you do not qualify directly, many put the application in a friends name etc. but the people running the agency is not the applicant or owner.

Mel Recker wrote:
And one thing we're forgetting...if someone is PAYING to shoot with you, do you not acommodate them?

good question...   lets think about it...

so, if someone is paying you to shoot with them, and they want you to shoot nudes, do you not accommodate them?


PS:  Replying to the post immediately above...

how does one vet an escort?

A photographer's credits are typically on their site, models they have worked with, perhaps a web site, etc.

A model's credits are on their site/portfolio, perhaps on a web site.

Where/how are these escorts vetted?

If you have a right to say you don't want to shoot nudes, don't we have a right to say we don't want the distraction/disruption (or worse) of escorts?

Mel Recker wrote:
a Human, I know people do it, but I just don't know how effective it is in the long run, ya know? And the same day breakdowns are even bit dodgy. lol. Sometimes it's better to just check out showfax and try to decipher things from there!

Mel

Point being "is it is done daily and frequently", bad agencies, managers, wannabees, get them - BS agencies and Managers, etc. get them for perception, to make them look more legitimate, it is up to the Casting Agents to not see anyone unless they have an appointment, but many castings agents dont do that.

Mel Recker wrote:
Yes, it's up to the cd's NOT to see the crashers. And they don't. Have you ever tried to walk onto a studio lot to get to a CD's office? Good luck with that. Even the smaller offices have people at the front desk who will rip you to shreds if you try to audition crash.

It's done all the time, in the big lots, cubby holes and everywhere in between (specifically been talking about Hollywood CA). This hole thread has been off topic, I jumped in regarding this one.

a HUMAN ad wrote:

It's done all the time, in the big lots, cubby holes and everywhere in between (specifically been talking about Hollywood CA). This hole thread has been off topic, I jumped in regarding this one.

Says who?!!! All the time?!!

DougBPhoto wrote:

I thought both parties have the burden of vetting the person they are going to potentially work with.

Are you seriously suggesting that photographers should have a burden of proving they are not going to rape or attack the women that pose for them?

Do you assume all men are going to rape you until they prove otherwise, or just the ones with cameras?

It sounds like you think photographers are guilty until proven innocent, or at least the male ones.

How many other occupations do you assume that people are guilty of being likely to rape or exploit you until they somehow prove otherwise to you?

I'm certainly not saying that photographers are all 100% trustworthy, but to assume that they are all guilty until they prove they are innocent seems rather off, especially if you don't have the same guilty until proven innocent attitude towards all other men in the world.

People of both genders need to learn how to spot the good from the bad, and take the necessary steps for them to be safe and not expect or rely on someone else to do that for them.

If someone does not feel safe working with someone, don't work with that person.  If you (broad you) feel you'll be in danger, don't bring people you care about into that situation if you feel it is unsafe.

I'm not certain what your preoccupation with rape is, but I have some thoughts on escorts and on line photographers, be they rapists or not.

I don't know what the percentages are in terms of amateur photographers on this site that don't use their real name anywhere on their profile. Nor do I know what percentage of those anonymous photographers shoot spread shots. I can tell you that between this site and the others like it that I frequent, there are more questionable photographers than there are not. In my opinion, based on what my eyes tell me, the majority of photographers on these sites are simply interested in crotch.

Being interested in crotch doesn't necessarily mean you're prone to rape, but there are other considerations beyond rape. Having your picture in the portfolio of someone that shoots what appalls you can’t be fun. Being manipulated all day long to take your clothes off for art has got to be a bummer.  Worrying over your career because you shot something stupid for someone questionable has got to cause sleeplessness.

I don’t understand why the question of escorts even comes up, because the answer is very simple. Use common sense and do what makes you happy. Never let your self be compromised, and never compromise your value system. If that means always having an escort, post it up and let it be known. If that means never allowing an escort, do the same.

BT Imagery wrote:

As long as you are alright with me bringing an escort as well! (Whether that escort has two legs or one trigger shouldn't make a difference, right?)

I fully agree with this, 99 percent if your asking for an escort i will have one also. I actually found mine because he offered to be a photographer escort after he escorted his girlfriend

Kristopher St Pierre wrote:

I fully agree with this, 99 percent if your asking for an escort i will have one also. I actually found mine because he offered to be a photographer escort after he escorted his girlfriend

The more, the merrier. lol.

Bob, wise words.

Robert Randall wrote:
I'm not certain what your preoccupation with rape is, but I have some thoughts on escorts and on line photographers, be they rapists or not.

I don't know what the percentages are in terms of amateur photographers on this site that don't use their real name anywhere on their profile. Nor do I know what percentage of those anonymous photographers shoot spread shots. I can tell you that between this site and the others like it that I frequent, there are more questionable photographers than there are not. In my opinion, based on what my eyes tell me, the majority of photographers on these sites are simply interested in crotch.

Being interested in crotch doesn't necessarily mean you're prone to rape, but there are other considerations beyond rape. Having your picture in the portfolio of someone that shoots what appalls you can’t be fun. Being manipulated all day long to take your clothes off for art has got to be a bummer.  Worrying over your career because you shot something stupid for someone questionable has got to cause sleeplessness.

I don’t understand why the question of escorts even comes up, because the answer is very simple. Use common sense and do what makes you happy. Never let your self be compromised, and never compromise your value system. If that means always having an escort, post it up and let it be known. If that means never allowing an escort, do the same.

This makes really good sense to me.

DougBPhoto wrote:
I thought both parties have the burden of vetting the person they are going to potentially work with.

I don’t understand why the question of escorts even comes up, because the answer is very simple. Use common sense and do what makes you happy. Never let your self be compromised, and never compromise your value system. If that means always having an escort, post it up and let it be known. If that means never allowing an escort, do the same.

Agree, however is MM known for having people whose sole purpose is to inflict harm to someone they contacted through mm. You will more then likely be harmed by someone you intimately know.

Mel Recker wrote:
Doug, I meant that you would have to vet the model in order to vet the escort. Does that make any sense? The line of logic is that if the model is uber-professional, then if they DID for some reason request and escort, you would trust them. And I genuinely get the impression that if photogs vibe with someone, their rules become more lenient.

Mel

If a model is uber-professional, I would be very, very surprised if they did request an escort.

Therefore, having an uber-professional model request an escort would actually cause me to be EXTRA concerned with checking that model's references.

Obviously, if someone has physical issues and requires an attendant for health concerns, or needs a driver, that is a separate issue and isn't an escort.

When someone who is over 18 asks for an escort, I don't care how professional her portfolio looks, that is going to make me question their experience and professionalism.

I'm not saying I will never make an exception, but ultimately I only want people present who genuinely NEED to be there, and have a specific roll in making the shoot successful.

a HUMAN ad wrote:
Agree, however is MM known for having people whose sole purpose is to inflict harm to someone they contacted through mm.

The identical arguments can be made for:

Schools
Grocery Stores
Malls
Dentist offices
Parking lots
Bars
Churches
Nightclubs
Working in any job, anywhere, any time.
The list goes on and on and on.

Considering the exceptionally low number of models who have been raped or murdered by professional photographers and considering how many times women have been raped by, say, a Dentist, wouldn't you then suggest that all women should bring a friend or family member in to the room when a dentist is filling a cavity?

Mel Recker wrote:
And Doug, what I meant is that if you're worried about thieving escorts/models ,etc. then the burden of vetting is also on YOU. I imagine that some of the people who bring meddlesome escorts could be weeded out just by looking at their level of professionalism.
Mel

The problem with your theory is in almost every case the escort is a 100% unknown, often the model will bring a stand in at the last minute because the planned escort can't make it. While we can check models references we can't do the same with their escorts.

DougBPhoto wrote:
If a model is uber-professional, I would be very, very surprised if they did request an escort.

I'm not certain who in your mind is uber-profesional, but for the sake of argument, lets consider Cindy Crawford to be uber-professional. Lets also suspend reality for a moment and agree that you have the funds it would take to get her in front of your camera. Do you really suppose for one second that she would show up at your house without an escort in tow?

Capitol City Boudoir wrote:
I can't imaging running a business and asking a client not to bring a friend along.  Isn't their "escort" a potential client as well? Most of our client are referred to us by other satisfied clients.

If a model is paying me, she can bring the entire Alabama State University marching band with her. I couldn't give a shit. If she does though, I make it very clear to her that any interruptions or disruptions in the shoot because of her "escort" means that she is responsible. I even put this in writing in all my contracts and point it out to the model and her "escort".

However, if I am writing the check for a model and she brings an "escort", especially after I told her that they are not welcome, then one of two things can happen. He can come back at a designated time when we are done or they can both leave and my backup model will step-in and get paid instead. There is no Plan C contingent.

Robert Randall wrote:
I'm not certain who in your mind is uber-profesional, but for the sake of argument, lets consider Cindy Crawford to be uber-professional. Lets also suspend reality for a moment and agree that you have the funds it would take to get her in front of your camera. Do you really suppose for one second that she would show up at your house without an escort in tow?

LOL - I dont think he was suggesting Celebrities, if I were shooting Cindy Crawford, she can bring who she wants and can even tell me how to shoot her.

Robert Randall wrote:

I'm not certain who in your mind is uber-profesional, but for the sake of argument, lets consider Cindy Crawford to be uber-professional. Lets also suspend reality for a moment and agree that you have the funds it would take to get her in front of your camera. Do you really suppose for one second that she would show up at your house without an escort in tow?

I think you are taking this to a very rare extreme. Let's take your average, every day working model. Someone who works a trade show one day and does a shoot for local business the next. 99.99% of them are smart enough to leave the escort at home.

Shot By Adam wrote:
The identical arguments can be made for:

Schools
Grocery Stores
Malls
Dentist offices
Parking lots
Bars
Churches
Nightclubs
Working in any job, anywhere, any time.
The list goes on and on and on.

Considering the exceptionally low number of models who have been raped or murdered by professional photographers and considering how many times women have been raped by, say, a Dentist, wouldn't you then suggest that all women should bring a friend or family member in to the room when a dentist is filling a cavity?

Perhpas you are mis-interpreting my statement; I am saying that models that want to bring an escort for their safety, are being overly concerned, since it is more likelly they will be harmed by someone they know intimatelly.

Mel Recker wrote:
The issue goes beyond physical harm though. There is a culture of photogs who parade around as being professional through having condescending profiles. "Look at all of my rules and shake in your boots!!!" Now, of course, not al photographers with profiles like this do what I'm about to describe, but I do think it's a serious problem around these parts, and I wonder if it ever really gets addressed head-on:

Let's say there's a girl whose name is Sally who lives in smallishtown, USA. Sally has just turned 18 that week. Maybe she's tall and skinny, let's say 5'9" and a beanpole. She's never been the pretty one. Boys teased her. Girls teased her. And then one day, a friend tells her about Model Mayhem. Listen, you can get MODELING jobs," her friend says. So she joins, and immediately she gets a message from a photographer. He's cunning. He's older. He tells her he's a photographer in her area that scouts models. Promises her the world. She's young and naive, and for the first time, she feels wanted. Pretty. He says, listen, come by my apartment so we can shoot some test pics. She asks if she can bring her friend because her natural instinct is to be cautious. "Listen, I a professional," he barks back, "I only do SO many TFP shoots a month. You should feel flattered and pay attention." She looks at his profile. Dang, he does look pretty professional. I mean, look at his list of rules and regulations about how he works. All stuff in bold about this and that.

So she goes. And 15 minutes into the meeting he says, I need to take your measurements because the agencies in the big cities are gonna want to know your EXACT sizes. OK, she thinks. No biggie. But then he tells her needs her to strip down because they need to be EXACT. She doesn't know what to do. She wants to ask her friend, to get reassurance, to get guidance, but her friend isn't there. He sees her hesitation, and he snaps that if she wants to be a pro, this is how it's done. So she goes along.

The months go by, and she continues to shoot with him. He calls himself her mentor. Except he's never left the state. Never worked for or shot for a major agency. His pictures suck. But she's under his spell.

Sally could have been a runway model. She could have gone to NY, Paris, wherever. All she had to do was snap a shot of herself and submit it online to one of the big agencies. But she didn't do that. Instead, she spent the next 5 years shooting with this guy. Now she's too old. And she kind of dislikes herself. And to show for it, she has pages and pages of nude pictures with bad lighting and tacky outfits.

____

This is a true story. It's happened multiple times to girls I know. "But she was an adult, you'll say." She had to learn in her own way. And to that, I say, what if it was your daughter? Sister? Friend? Girlfriend? She was a week past 17, so much more mature than when her mother was still required to be there, right? Of course, there are many stories in reverse. Women who are totally down with whatever, and get great joy out of just being in front of the camera. They are emotionally mature and can make their own decisions, and they like being naked or whatever. That's awesome. But that's not Sally's story.

Listen, I'm not saying that this is ANY of the people on this thread. But I think we can all admit that, regardless of the escort conversation, the above problem is a serious thing. So far my short experience here has been pretty darn good, but I think of this story a lot when I see what's on MM. A lot. And it makes me so sad. I honestly can't help it.

This will more then likelly happen to her is she were signed with a major agency, and said agency sent her to the big clients and photographers. Theres a book about that "Shut Up and Smile: Supermodels, the Dark Side" by Award-Winning Investigative Author. http://www.abebooks.com/Shut-Smile-Supe … 8083060/bd

Synopsis: Shut Up and Smile is a riveting tale of slavery, a torrent of drugs and alcohol, racism, and a history of an intense, apocalyptic and ultimately fascinating and tragic world. Award winning investigative author Ian Halperin went undercover as a model himself in New York and South Beach and has found the never told story behind-the-story about the outwardly glamorous supermodel industry. He traces the rise of many well-known supermodels including Cheryl Tiegs, Claudia Schiller, Naomi Campbell, Christy Turlington, and Kirsty Hume, and the controversial obstacles that they have faced along the way. Halperin interviewed over 200 models, their close business and personal associates, and people in the fashion industry to get the inside story. He reveals how they are often misled by their handlers into a world of drugs, prostitution, violence, murder, and never-ending, messy affairs. Halperin's probe exposes a disturbing pattern in which young women and men prove ill-equipped to handle their dizzying ascension to stardom at such a young age and eventually wind up broke and outcast.