Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him?
Model
MelissaAnn
Posts: 3971
Seattle, Washington, US
L J K wrote:
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him? Depends on what type of not-so-great things the model said. Also depends on what the *other* models you checked references with said. One borderline bad reference is never enough for me to cancel a shoot, and I've actually had great experiences with some photographers that other models hated.
Photographer
Another Italian Guy
Posts: 3281
Bath, England, United Kingdom
L J K wrote:
Should I spring an escort on him? Not a good idea.
As Melissa said, it kind of depends how bad the 'not so good' things were.
Lots of guys will 'try it on' a bit at shoots but will back off and behave perfectly if shut down immediately and in no uncertain terms by the model.
If he was physically inappropriate and she says she felt threatened or violated then it's probably just best to cancel on the grounds that his references didn't check out, but under no circumstances should you divulge who said something negative about him. Models need to feel they can talk to other models candidly and in confidence if asked for a reference.
Just my $0.02 etc. etc.
Photographer
Doug Bolton Photography
Posts: 784
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Four days is LOTS of notice for a cancellation!
Do it! (if you don't feel safe or whatever....)
Photographer
Toto Photo
Posts: 3757
Belmont, California, US
L J K wrote:
...because I knew someone that worked with this guy. Could you call this person and tell them what you've heard and get their overall opinion given your current thinking?
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
It's so hard to say. Photos one model isn't happy with you might be. I remember one thread in which the OP model was going on and on about creepy photographers, and then later said she though anyone over 30 was creepy, no matter how nicely they behaved.
What constitutes a creepy photographer to one model, may not to another.
It depends on what it was the other model said and it also matters whether or not that model will have the same perceptions as you. Sometimes that's obvious, sometimes not.
Personally, this is one of the reasons I don't give references much credence, preferring to judge for myself rather then rely on the opinion of a third party I don't know. Only you can decide if you feel they are representative of what you will experience.
Photographer
Rob Photosby
Posts: 4810
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
If you ask enough people, you will get some bad feedback eventually, but you need to keep an eye on the motive because sometimes the negative view will be a cover for bad behaviour on the respondent's part.
Model
Nat has a username
Posts: 3590
Oakland, California, US
It depends on what the model said, but I'd put more faith in your overall first impression and communication with the photographer so far. Re-read past messages with them and see if there are any red flags that you missed.
References can be useful, but not foolproof. I have a few people I work well with, and know they aren't the most popular or well-liked because they are awkward, and can sometimes say offensive things (that fly right over my head). A lot of it comes down to personalities- sometimes things just don't line up. I try and take into account personality and working habits when recommending a model/photographer; if I know someone has a habit of running late and taking a lot of breaks but otherwise great, I won't recommend them to someone who is a stickler for time.
Another issue with references is that people behave differently with different people. I've had people who were polite and considerate to me that we're assholes to friends of mine. It's a small world, so that eventually catches up to you.
For any job, I make sure to let someone know where I'm going, who I'll be shooting with, and general timeframe. Maybe have someone drop you off and arrange to pick you up after if possible. Again this advice is based off of past experience and not knowing your individual situation. Hope you figure it out!
Photographer
Andrew Thomas Evans
Posts: 24079
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
If you're not comfortable then it will show up in the pics and may not be a good enjoyable shoot. So best to move on and go from there. I mean, if you want to bring a friend, sure, just don't call them an escort and say they are a ride or something. No harm in that really, but honestly if you're not up for it you may as well bow out now. Unless you now all of a sudden don't like them. In which case lead them on that you're on the way for a hour or so and then not show up. If you're really mean do that and say a friend wants to shoot nudes and lingerie with you and that she is thinking of being a model too...  Andrew Thomas Evans www.andrewthomasevans.com
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
cancelling with several days notice is far better than just no-showing. you don't have to tell him about the bad review, just say that something else has come up for that date and you are going to have to cancel.
also, just because one model had a bad experience doesn't necessarily mean you will. sometimes certain pairings just don't work out.
Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Another Italian Guy wrote:
but under no circumstances should you divulge who said something negative about him. Models need to feel they can talk to other models candidly and in confidence if asked for a reference. +1 to that. Would never hand out my reference's name.
Toto Photo wrote:
Could you call this person and tell them what you've heard and get their overall opinion given your current thinking? I ended up talking to this person and they had little to nothing to say that was positive. Just that he had a reputation as a "trouble maker".
I guess it all comes down to people saying negative things about negative experiences. Wish I would have dug harder before I confirmed.
I ended up canceling on the grounds of his references not checking out.
Thanks for all of the input!
Model
Evie Wolfe
Posts: 1201
Nottingham, England, United Kingdom
EDIT - I see you have already resolved the issue, sorry, I posted before I checked 
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
L J K wrote:
I ended up talking to this person and they had little to nothing to say that was positive. Just that he had a reputation as a "trouble maker". HEY, not all troublemakers are all bad!!!
Photographer
Eye of the World
Posts: 1396
Corvallis, Oregon, US
L J K wrote:
+1 to that. Would never hand out my reference's name.
I ended up talking to this person and they had little to nothing to say that was positive. Just that he had a reputation as a "trouble maker".
I guess it all comes down to people saying negative things about negative experiences. Wish I would have dug harder before I confirmed.
I ended up canceling on the grounds of his references not checking out.
Thanks for all of the input! If you only got those negatives relayed from that single person then it sounds like what was shared was hearsay evidence ("reputation as a trouble maker") and not actual first hand negatives from anyone. As others have said, never base a decision on one piece of data (unless an actual police report, etc). I know of one well respected photographer who started getting bad mouthed by a particular model. His side of the story was that she kept a dress used in the shoot and when he asked for it back she started posting things about him. It is pretty easy for one vindictive person to sow seeds without actually giving out verifiable information.
Just curious why you gave more credence to that reference than the original one that caused you to book in the first place?
Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4834
Houston, Texas, US
People are always saying on here to do your due diligence.
Then they say, "Well, ya just don't know from one bad comment."
Which is true.
Trust your gut on this one..
If you feel the comments were valid and your discomfort will affect your work.. then it's best to cancel...
Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Eye of the World wrote:
Just curious why you gave more credence to that reference than the original one that caused you to book in the first place? This is very valid. I booked on the knowledge that someone I knew once worked with him (a photographer). At the same time I contacted a model and three weeks later got a reply, which was a bad reference. I then contacted the photographer and got a second bad reference.
Yeah, I'm not into listening to anyone looking to bad mouth but two bad refs makes me wary.
Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
DougBPhoto wrote:
HEY, not all troublemakers are all bad!!! only a little trouble making is fun hehehe
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Escorts are never your answer. If the person really is trouble, then you just put yourself AND your friend at risk. Shitty thing to do. And you should absolutely never spring one on someone. If you must have one, you need to make that clear prior to booking, and prepare to be rejected.
In the future contact more references so the ones that take their time getting back to you don't delay you, and don't book until you've heard something back, if you're going to go with reference checks prior to shoots.
As others have said, it really depends on what the references say. "We didn't click" is a LOT different than "I was assaulted". One should be taken with a few more grains of salt than the other.
I've worked with a handful of people that all my friends seem over the moon for but I just really didn't like them for one reason or another. All I can tell someone is that we didn't have a great shoot, and they should weigh my opinion against someone else's. Everyone's personalities and styles and comfort levels and tolerances for certain behaviors are different, so you're not going to mesh with everyone you meet even if they had glowing reviews, unfortunate as that may be.
Model
JoJo
Posts: 26560
Clearwater, Florida, US
L J K wrote:
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him? If, after receiving this 'bad' information, you feel uncomfortable going through with the shoot then you should probably cancel.
Your mention of "Should I spring an escort on him?" leads me to believe the 'bad' information probably concerns the impropriety of the photographer.
If you (your heart and mind) are not completely into the shoot then you will not be at your best - cancel.
Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Laura UnBound wrote:
Escorts are never your answer. If the person really is trouble, then you just put yourself AND your friend at risk. Shitty thing to do. And you should absolutely never spring one on someone. If you must have one, you need to make that clear prior to booking, and prepare to be rejected. Clarification: spring an escort as in tell him 4 days before the shoot that I'll be bringing an escort now due to references not checking out.
Laura UnBound wrote:
In the future contact more references so the ones that take their time getting back to you don't delay you, and don't book until you've heard something back, if you're going to go with reference checks prior to shoots. Said photographer had three total references. Like I said, I should have waited to book it.
Laura UnBound wrote:
As others have said, it really depends on what the references say. "We didn't click" is a LOT different than "I was assaulted". One should be taken with a few more grains of salt than the other. There were two separate bad references. I've already discussed whether or not this was hearsay.
This was resolved. Thanks.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
L J K wrote:
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him? It entirely depends on what exactly the bad rec is about & also how plentiful they are.
Like "he lacks social graces" is very different than "he repeated inapproriately touched me after I asked him to stop".
Same goes for the number of people. If one or two people says it, its may or may not be an issue...like it could've been a 1 off thing. But if multiple people are saying basically the same thing, it may be a wise idea to take what's said into consideration.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
L J K wrote:
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him? Whats wrong with telling the photographer that you have heard some questionable things about him , and because of that you would like to bring someone with you ?
Photographer
LA StarShooter
Posts: 2731
Los Angeles, California, US
Garry k wrote:
Whats wrong with telling the photographer that you have heard some questionable things about him , and because of that you would like to bring someone with you ? That is awful thing to say to anyone and puts a cloud over the potential for the shoot. She decided already not to go. As Laura wrote, if risky, bringing an escort puts two people at risk. But your suggested approach Garry would probably make the photographer furious. If someone said that to me, I would just say "I'm never going to work with you. Next."
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
Garry k wrote:
Whats wrong with telling the photographer that you have heard some questionable things about him , and because of that you would like to bring someone with you ? 
I don't know, what is wrong with insulting your waiter (or the chef) before they bring your food.
Great way to create a huge disaster.
Unless there is a desire to produce material for a massive trainwreck, NOT a good idea.
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
LA StarShooter wrote:
That is awful thing to say to anyone and puts a cloud over the potential for the shoot. She decided already not to go. As Laura wrote, if risky, bringing an escort puts two people at risk. But your suggested approach Garry would probably make the photographer furious. If someone said that to me, I would just say "I'm never going to work with you. Next." I don't know
It happened to me once . A local photographer had been talking some shit about me and a model I had shot with ( in studio with a team ) expressed reluctance to work with me 1-1 outdoors ( early morning nude shoot at the beach ) She wanted to bring her boyfriend to the shoot and I refused that but told her I was fine with her bringing a friend . She couldnt find a friend but reluctantly agreed to do the shoot
So we went ahead and met at the beach at 7 am to do the shoot . The Beach was nearly deserted but a few minutes later guess who strolls by - the photographer who had shit talked about me to her prior to the shoot
I laughed to myself and proceeded to carry out the shoot which went fine for both of us
But afterwards I ignored all of the models subsequent requests to work with me again
Photographer
Garry k
Posts: 30129
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
DougBPhoto wrote:
I don't know, what is wrong with insulting your waiter (or the chef) before they bring your food.
Great way to create a huge disaster.
Unless there is a desire to produce material for a massive trainwreck, NOT a good idea. Its really not the same thing at all Doug
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
If you are going to rely on references, I think one needs a variety of representative references. It's basic statistics that a possibly biased sampling of one doesn't mean much.
If you are going to rely on third party opinions, get some more opinions so you can see if there is a trend or not.
Model
L J K
Posts: 267
Dunedin, Otago, New Zealand
Abbitt Photography wrote:
If you are going to rely on references, I think one needs a variety of representative references. It's basic statistics that a possibly biased sampling of one doesn't mean much.
If you are going to rely on third party opinions, get some more opinions so you can see if there is a trend or not. If not relying on references, how else would someone be safe about planning a shoot with someone you know nothing about?
Personally, I don't have the amount of free time it requires to do a public meet up with each photographer before a shoot.
Model
Alabaster Crowley
Posts: 8283
Tucson, Arizona, US
One bad enough review is enough for me to say no thanks, even if I also get a few good ones. This is something I do for fun, and if some model tells me the photographer was inappropriate enough for her to actually say something, that's going to ruin it.
Photographer
GER Photography
Posts: 8463
Imperial, California, US
When in doubt, err on the side of safety/comfort.
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6680
Dallas, Texas, US
Laura UnBound wrote:
Escorts are never your answer. If the person really is trouble, then you just put yourself AND your friend at risk. Shitty thing to do... You know Laura, in all the escort threads on here, I don't believe I have ever heard a model or a photographer make that particular, specific statement before. It's a very good and valid point!
Photographer
pwhitaker
Posts: 3
Newcastle, Washington, US
As a male photographer I would care less if a female model brought an escort with her to a shoot. Actually, I would probably bring a friend to the shoot if I had never worked with the model before as protection for myself. The last thing I want is someone to accuse me of something that could land me in jail. Regardless, I think it is a red flag if a photographer or any other professional refuses your service on the base of personal safety. It isn't a bad thing to cancel a shoot with 24 hour notice let alone four days notice.
Photographer
Renato Alberto
Posts: 1052
San Francisco, California, US
L J K wrote:
I booked a shoot with a photographer about a month ago. I set a date before I heard back from models that had worked with said photographer because I knew someone that worked with this guy. I figured that was enough.
Four days before the shoot, I hear back from a model (finally) and she says not so great things about him. I'm now uncomfortable going through with this shoot after this new info came to light.
Is is unprofessional to cancel? Should I spring an escort on him? If the reference you got has to do with your safety, then by all means I would encourage you to cancel, you should never take chances with your safety.
Model
Goodbye4
Posts: 2532
Los Angeles, California, US
Photographer
Mark Reeder
Posts: 627
Huntsville, Ontario, Canada
Kelleth wrote:
One bad reference over something serious should be all it takes. Who cares, just cancel. Why put yourself in a risky situation? +1000
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
Garry k wrote:
Its really not the same thing at all Doug I'm not really surprised you don't get it, but at least you're consistent.
As said above, I think most people would understand and agree that it probably is not wise to disclose that they were concerned because they received a negative reference, but it takes different strokes to move the world, and we live in a world where people can't even agree on the most simple or most basic of things.
I suspect most people grasp why it may not be wise to say negative things to someone and understand doing so could potentially increase the odds of an unwanted outcome, and that is what really matters.
However, your point above is well taken, that even negative references/stories could be full of shit, so there may be times where common sense is needed also.
Photographer
Nico Simon Princely
Posts: 1972
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
The problem with references is that you can think a shoot went great and the model might think otherwise. Or a model might have a isolated negative experience or may be one of those people that blows everything out of proportion. And women like that in this industry are not that uncommon.
I had two issues with models that would not give me a good reference I'm sure. One I said a certain pose made her look fat. I said it only so she would know to avoid it. I also complimented her as well. She later started contacting another model via FB I was doing several shoots with and started bad mouthing me. The other models told me who it was. Because she had only a positive experience with me.
The girl had exaggerated everything and said I called her fat all the way though the shoot. Her GF that she brought with her got along with me great and was a great assistant. And later told me (after they broke up) the other girl was a real pain in the ass and needed to be fawned over 24/7. To make it worse this model showed up with no makeup and none to put on. When I told her exactly what to do and bring. I went ahead with he shoot (A mistake) and did the Makeup in post. And for all of that that work I got bad mouthed!
Another we had an awesome shoot and got some great images, but I was going through a difficult time in my life and got very sick and it took a while to get the images to her as I did extensive retouching was not as fast then as I am now. Then she wanted to submit one of my images to a magazine and when I asked the details she started screaming at me not to screw this up for her!
So these two references could stop some models from working with me when the majority have had good experiences. But is that really fair to me? Or to the Model who would miss out on working with me over a bad reference?
No one is perfect. Trust your gut feeling it's usually right.
For the record I would want to know if someone was bad mouthing me and why a model canceled. I would not at all be upset at a model for telling me those things. It would give me a chance to tell my side of the story. Fortunately most of the models I have worked with like me and refer people to me.
Photographer
DougBPhoto
Posts: 39248
Portland, Oregon, US
Nico Simon Princely wrote:
The problem with references is that you can think a shoot went great and the model might think otherwise. Or a model might have a isolated negative experience or may be one of those people that blows everything out of proportion. And women like that in this industry are not that uncommon.
I had two issues with models that would not give me a good reference I'm sure. One I said a certain pose made her look fat. I said it only so she would know to avoid it. I also complimented her as well. She later started contacting another model via FB I was doing several shoots with and started bad mouthing me. The other models told me who it was. Because she had only a positive experience with me.
The girl had exaggerated everything and said I called her fat all the way though the shoot. Her GF that she brought with her got along with me great and was a great assistant. And later told me (after they broke up) the other girl was a real pain in the ass and needed to be fawned over 24/7. To make it worse this model showed up with no makeup and none to put on. When I told her exactly what to do and bring. I went ahead with he shoot (A mistake) and did the Makeup in post. And for all of that that work I got bad mouthed!
Another we had an awesome shoot and got some great images, but I was going through a difficult time in my life and got very sick and it took a while to get the images to her as I did extensive retouching was not as fast then as I am now. Then she wanted to submit one of my images to a magazine and when I asked the details she started screaming at me not to screw this up for her!
So these two references could stop some models from working with me when the majority have had good experiences. But is that really fair to me? Or to the Model who would miss out on working with me over a bad reference?
No one is perfect. Trust your gut feeling it's usually right.
For the record I would want to know if someone was bad mouthing me and why a model canceled. I would not at all be upset at a model for telling me those things. It would give me a chance to tell my side of the story. Fortunately most of the models I have worked with like me and refer people to me. It is true, sometimes you almost need to check references on the people who providing the reference information/feedback.
I can see where situations like you described could be QUITE common, and is likely why my understanding is that many models greatly prefer reference info coming from other models that they know well versus ones they don't.
Model
Laura UnBound
Posts: 28745
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Nico Simon Princely wrote:
The problem with references is that you can think a shoot went great and the model might think otherwise. Or a model might have a isolated negative experience or may be one of those people that blows everything out of proportion. And women like that in this industry are not that uncommon.
I had two issues with models that would not give me a good reference I'm sure. One I said a certain pose made her look fat. I said it only so she would know to avoid it. I also complimented her as well. She later started contacting another model via FB I was doing several shoots with and started bad mouthing me. The other models told me who it was. Because she had only a positive experience with me.
The girl had exaggerated everything and said I called her fat all the way though the shoot. Her GF that she brought with her got along with me great and was a great assistant. And later told me (after they broke up) the other girl was a real pain in the ass and needed to be fawned over 24/7. To make it worse this model showed up with no makeup and none to put on. When I told her exactly what to do and bring. I went ahead with he shoot (A mistake) and did the Makeup in post. And for all of that that work I got bad mouthed!
Another we had an awesome shoot and got some great images, but I was going through a difficult time in my life and got very sick and it took a while to get the images to her as I did extensive retouching was not as fast then as I am now. Then she wanted to submit one of my images to a magazine and when I asked the details she started screaming at me not to screw this up for her!
So these two references could stop some models from working with me when the majority have had good experiences. But is that really fair to me? Or to the Model who would miss out on working with me over a bad reference?
No one is perfect. Trust your gut feeling it's usually right.
For the record I would want to know if someone was bad mouthing me and why a model canceled. I would not at all be upset at a model for telling me those things. It would give me a chance to tell my side of the story. Fortunately most of the models I have worked with like me and refer people to me. ^^ this is why some of us have said that it's important to know (at least in vague terms, the nitty gritty usually isn't needed) what the bad reference is. Someone telling me "we didn't click" or "our personalities are not a good match" or "I didn't enjoy my shoot, I didn't have a good time, I didn't like them" is a lot different than "I felt unsafe" or "they were incredibly inappropriate towards me"
The former, I can take with a grain of salt, especially if I only hear one of those against several good ones. I can consider how much alike I am with the model who had the bad experience (if I know her, and at my point in my career, I tend to wind up working with the same people many of my friends do so this is a big possibility for me) and if I think I'd feel the same way about things as she did. I don't need a play by play of who said what, just a simple "they made me feel ____, so I wouldn't recommend them" is fine.
Navigating references doesn't have to be giving and getting a life's story, but it can be more than "yes" and "no" also.
Regardless, nobody forces a model to listen to the references she gets. I've gotten crappy references, decided not to listen to them, had great shoots. Just because someone said something shitty about a person doesn't MAKE me stay away from them, I'm a big girl and I make my own decisions about what and who I want to listen to for advice. Just because there's a potential for me to not heed that advice doesn't mean I'm going to skip out on getting it though.
Photographer
Model Mentor Studio
Posts: 1359
Saint Catharines-Niagara, Ontario, Canada
Alabaster Crowley wrote:
One bad enough review is enough for me to say no thanks, even if I also get a few good ones. This is something I do for fun, and if some model tells me the photographer was inappropriate enough for her to actually say something, that's going to ruin it. There are models who do good work that I'll never have in front of my camera again. They were just horrible for me. Rude, disgusting..
But that's only my experience. If asked (and I have been) I give it. But maybe she had a shitty day...I don't know. I know the pics were good. My point is I'd never make a decision on one reference. Could have been a bad day or someone with an axe to grind.
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