roger alan wrote:
Does anybody still shoot or model for fun?

I do...

Leaning a lot. Have always been interested in photography but did not shoot with a model until about a year ago.

Wish I had started sooner though, as it seems that numbers of models available to shoot just for fun is on the decline, at least here on MM.

I have seen local models that I would not bother shooting TF, get an MM account and suddenly think they should be getting paid.

On the flip side, every model I know here that has "Paid Only", will shoot trade, with the right photographer and the right project. Had one who is a full time figure model, pose TF for the camera club. Her way of giving back, and maybe having some fun. Arrived early and left late. My positive tag on her page went on for about a million words (ok, exageration).

Torttu Doris wrote:
If I didn't like what I was doing, I would not still be doing it.

Yes, I've written a fair share of 'Gimme my money!' rants, but in the end I (and don't we all?) work in an industry that thrives on aesthetics, beauty, art; something visual.

Wether it concerns a haute editorial or a toothpaste commercial, passion plays a huge part in what we do. Passion, as in doing something you love, and commit to it wholeheartedly.

To answer the question: yes, yes, a thousand times yes. I model for the fun of it. Should people want to pay me, that'd be nice too

Herman quoted you and I will as well.   You are absolutely correct and are making my point much better then I have.   Commitment isn't about money.   Passion isn't about what a thing can earn you.   Do what you love and many times the money will follow.   Not always sadly but start first with a passion.   There was a 5'10" beauty here when I first joined.   She could have been signed and working.   I suggested she approach FORD or Factor here in Chicago.   She was always too busy she claimed yet found time to work with some of the goofs here for their crappy upskirt and nudes with caution tape.   They paid her.   She said how much she wanted to become a fashion model.   She would ask me advice all the time and each time I suggested going to the real experts.

Years later she's put on weight and has aged.   I know actors who years later still have never had a major role and still do indie films.   They act because they love to do so.   They go to every audition they can.   I know dancers and singers who do the same.   A few I know travel to the south side of Chicago to perform and to try out.   That's a truly brave thing for a White person to do.   (in my view)   Who wouldn't love to make a living doing what they love?   Most people never will but if you won't do a thing unless it pays can you truly say you are dedicated  to it.   I'm speaking of the arts.

Eliza C  new portfolio wrote:
I've worked with strippers in effect. Two of them are among the best models here.
I dont think they'd work with the majority of photographers here though. For love or money. They are on MM but they are only after jobs that provide the opportunity to work with great creatives and reasonable pay.

So if a not so great creative photographer in your eyes paid one of these models $ 170 per hr and a great creative photographer was to pay these models $70 per hour the models would turn the not so great creative photographer down for the great creative photographer paying $70 per hr.

$ 70 could be seen as reasonable pay.
Also taking into account these being professional models who work for $.
In addition there's no commercial use for those pictures.

The Grand Artist wrote:
Going to strip clubs is cheaper than dating and getting married, yet plenty of men are still dating and still get married (many while still going to strip clubs.)

Guys have been blowing lots of money on stuff to get women since money was invented even though they could have just offered some random woman a fraction of what they spent on stuff and got the same results.

Ah, but the better strip clubs have a 'no touch' rule. Dating and marriage, not as much.

The Grand Artist wrote:
Guys have been blowing lots of money on stuff to get women since money was invented even though they could have just offered some random woman a fraction of what they spent on stuff and got the same results.

I offer my photographic services.

Herman Surkis wrote:
Interesting that a search on this only turned up 4 vague references.
I must have screwed up my search.

And yes, I know it happens, but just wondering how much.

More likely it is on the photographers side. And since I am a hobbyist I try to do it for fun, but it does not always work out that way.

Hi,
I feel like I may have replied to this but, since I'm travelling I'm not sure.

Yes, I shoot for trade only at this time, (sometimes I pay photographers though but very rarely.)

I've enjoyed shooting with photographers who shoot trade with me the best though and when I do begin charging a fee, will likely try to keep shooting trade as often as I can.
Jen

MB Jen B wrote:

Hi,
I feel like I may have replied to this but, since I'm travelling I'm not sure.

Yes, I shoot for trade only at this time, (sometimes I pay photographers though but very rarely.)

I've enjoyed shooting with photographers who shoot trade with me the best though and when I do begin charging a fee, will likely try to keep shooting trade as often as I can.
Jen

We know you do, you answered the OP, but how about why?
That extra might be interesting.
PS. I know you have already said why on other threads, so copy/paste or a link is legit.

WIP wrote:
So if a not so great creative photographer in your eyes paid one of these models $ 170 per hr and a great creative photographer was to pay these models $70 per hour the models would turn the not so great creative photographer down for the great creative photographer paying $70 per hr.

$ 70 could be seen as reasonable pay.
Also taking into account these being professional models who work for $.
In addition there's no commercial use for those pictures.

You're a British so can we talk in quid please?

No I can see no mention of what you are on about in my post you quoted.

In fact, let me shock you.

IF a burlesque star was asked for an interview with a mag and asked for photos to support it, then it may be she has a new clothing sponsor and wants new pics. With permissions. She may even pay You. Yes. Really.



If a brilliant photographer wanted her to look like a prisoner for an Amnesty International type image for an exhibition, and,selects her for how,well she emotes, it depends whether that is of interest creatively. It may be she'd do that free.

If a moderate photographer approached her and offered £40 an hour just one hour, or a slightly less able photographer offered £100 for an hour, it depends entirely on the project. The first one could say is just a test, and the second could say well I've got a designer who wants me to shoot some stuff.

So it's like weighing scales. And generally when in negotiations with both often someone else comes in and says." hey we've a bridal show at the NEC and we'd like you to model catwalk and for press, and it's £450 for two days plus hotels and travel. Sorry that's all our budget allows but we'd love to have you. Do you get why we may say err sorry but no thanks to the £40 and the £100?


Or if it's a top burlesque girl it could be five nights in Berlin or Dubai all expenses paid £600 a night. Or if it's a pole dancer and promo girl she could be offered the IPL gigs two weeks in India where she could make £3-4k and treated like a goddess, do commercials movies,get tears front a perfume campaign, and dance at the IPL.

I know you guys don't believe this but it's real for a lot of girls here.


So it's what I'm saying up the ante. If you can't offer much money, themn have a really altruistic motive which may appeal to us, or some prospect of editorial or great clothes and creative team, or something that inspires.

But don't talk about art and love and then offer caution tape and forty quid. Because that's crap and even if the money was fourfold it wouldnt exactly be tempting.


Actually, for myself right now I'm turning down modelling jobs for £100. And not because of anything exciting. I'm temping. For far less,than forty quid an hour. But here's the thing: it's as many hours as I want so it pays the rent. So for me to lose a weeks temping (and if I'm not available for two days (it takes a minimum of a day and a couple of nights to preen, and get toned etc) it will cost me a week's wages. I can't afford to do that. The photographers, I regularly work with understand that, especially when all my then spare time I'm writing up my thesis. It's photographers, often offering pretty mundane shoot ideas and low,wages (even if comparatively high in their minds) that get the hump.

WIP wrote:
' I've worked with strippers in effect. Two of them are among the best models here.
I dont think they'd work with the majority of photographers here though. For love or money. They are on MM but they are only after jobs that provide the opportunity to work with great creatives and reasonable pay '. What you stated.

I must have not read your post and it's meaning I took it as word for word meaning.

No I'm saying that many models,,especially girls like them, are going to be selective. And,take quality photographers, interesting jobs, plus money.  Your weigh up didn't figure. As it's not JUST the photography to be considered. I'm taking temping over photographers at the moment regardless of quality! And it's boring! But it pays the rent. What littlemodelling I now have time for has to be gigs like Cheltenham and the NEC etc. Which are fun and pay well.

WIP wrote:
So would they take on ; not so quality photographers, not so interesting jobs, plus LOTS of money.

Most commercial work can be very very dull but very well paid infact far better paid than editorial.

Yes I know. I've already stated that. Travel posters,bank ads and t shirt print companies paid me very well but boring. But you have to do them to get the jewellery job which was cool from the same ad agency. But well paid jobs with caution tape is not interesting at all.

Editorial is generally cool. Low pay yes.
I am not going to do either atm it has to be both lucrative and exciting.


And the burlesque girls I was talking about are always going to do that. They aren't going to work with gwcs just for money. Well they may do editorial...but we all do that for lower rates or even free. Or as I said they may work with the more altruistic art photographer free ....if they are free. And thats a big if.

The Grand Artist wrote:
Going to strip clubs is cheaper than dating and getting married, yet plenty of men are still dating and still get married (many while still going to strip clubs.)

Guys have been blowing lots of money on stuff to get women since money was invented even though they could have just offered some random woman a fraction of what they spent on stuff and got the same results.

WIP wrote:
So would they take on ; not so quality photographers, not so interesting jobs, plus LOTS of money.

Most commercial work can be very very dull but very well paid infact far better paid than editorial.

Good catch.   Photographers looking to become professional fashion, beauty and commercial shooters need to focus on working with agency models or models trying to be signed.   Paying models just doesn't work very well unless their is someone paying them and you.   Most commercial work is dull but pays well.   The ideal is to seek out models who love to be shot.   I worked with two recently.   As for interesting jobs, etc.   Many of the jobs that are interesting or cool and provide great tears don't pay well.   In fact catalog and commercial work both pay well but are usually boring and not always done by 'quality' photographers.   

Look, folks.   Get a basic book together and focus on trying to get local agencies to let you test their models.   You want people who really want to be shot rather then people looking for extra cash paid by you.   That is if you want to become a pro.   If you are a hobbyist and have no plans to go further it doesn't matter.   Personally I want to work with models who enjoy being photographed over those who see it as a job or income where their money is paid not by clients but by photographers.

Edit:  Paying models is fair and smart when and if you have a way to recoup your
        money but its not wise in my view for portfolio building and not when its the
        average MM model.   I am not saying what people should do.   Spend your
       money as you choose of course.

Christie Gabriel wrote:
I have fun on every shoot, but also have four mouths to feed and a mortgage. It is what it is.

+1

Tony Lawrence wrote:
Most commercial work is dull but pays well.   The ideal is to seek out models who love to be shot.   I worked with two recently.   As for interesting jobs, etc.   Many of the jobs that are interesting or cool and provide great tears don't pay well.   In fact catalog and commercial work both pay well but are usually boring and not always done by 'quality' photographers.

After two weeks of catalog snapping the fun goes out of the door. Next... next... next.
Photographers and models catalog work is good bread and butter do a few of these a year and you'll not have to worry about buying that new car or holiday.
Sometimes a interesting job may pop up.

And when you have some down time do the arty stuff and test shots.

WIP wrote:
After two weeks of catalog snapping the fun goes out of the door. Next... next... next.
Photographers and models catalog work is good bread and butter do a few of these a year and you'll not have to worry about buying that new car or holiday.
Sometimes a interesting job may pop up.

And when you have some down time do the arty stuff and test shots.

I do agree with Toby and Chris here Herman to an extent.

The problem is that models who are shooting a lot don't need to test with photographers unless they themselves are agency approved photographers. Freelancers doing journeyman stuff and normal commercial agency models won't need to (unless as I said it's the agency telling them to test). And if they feel they need to they will do so with someone that has paid them before in all likelihood.

So it's true that a lot of well paid modelling is boring commercial stuff but you do it for the money and the fact you don't have to worry about shenanigans when it's through an advertising company, and the fact you'd get the odd interesting job. I did a jewellery one, a high st clothing company, racecourses, a miliner, and a couple of others as well as the mundane ones.

It's also true that the more interesting creative jobs are less well paid. Having said that it's normally £100 or expenses or some wardrobe or hair done regularly in exchange or something.
But those jobs, with big creative trams, everyone is committed to getting a tear. If you do a fair bit of such stuff, there is no need to work with photographers playing dress up for their own ports. It's not going to happen. You may have a cool idea, and then you may persuade the model IF you also pay them. But expectaction of them doing it because they NEED to, or should enjoy it for the sake if it, are unreasonable unrealistic and ultimately those expecting it become sour and disillusioned.

The data speaks for itself. Models look in large numbers at paying gigs. Even larger numbers at interesting jobs that pay such as editorial submissions and shoots for lookbook for designers etc. that also pay.

Models don't look so much at tf castings. It's usually around less than 10%.

So if you want to attract models - including the many agency standard models here - then expect to pay or carry on under the delusion that we are all not real models, mercenary, etc.


No skin off our nose as we have plenty of offers for interesting paid work from fashion houses designers boutiques artists education institutions promo modelling companies grid companies plus related work on theatre tv dance etc etc .  If we didn't, and were sat watching tv 24/7 maybe we'd have time to look at tf castings. But even if we don't do that much modelling, that means we are out having to earn a living so still arent going to be wasting our time playing dress up for the benefit of your ports when ours are fine thanks. The same would be true of course of models approaching busy photographers with dress up ideas of their own. One in fifty it may be of mutual interest, but it appears to me photographers bombarding models with requests to shoot tf not vice versa. And understandably: it's the photographer who is generally the architect of vision, the artist, not the model. We interpret and facilitate. If it was our idea then it would be different. I gave earlier the example of a model who has to provide brand new pics for a magazine interview. She may even pay the photographer for this to do it as she wants. Especially if she then has permission to use. But models don't own copyright, it isn't their vision, and much of the time it isn't that interesting or artistic. So ultimately that's why models get paid.

You can pretend all you like your portfolio is good enough to get models doing it tf but if it's not happening, then either there is something wrong with the expectation, or there's something wrong with your work, or something wrong with all the models here. The latter two are not constructive and are responsible for the conflict here and depression among photographers. The truth is there's something very wrong with the expectation that skilled people should work for you to create your visionary project for nothing, or for photos they don't need.

We should do it for enjoyment? We do. We get paid for it too. I am constantly befuddled by photographers who imagine working at a trade fair with a bunch of great girls, or with a top designer doing fit and showroom, or a bridal fair or hair show, or for a boutique at a local fashion show,  isn't enjoyable. Not to mention good photographers who do pay us for interesting and ambitious projects. Because the truth is they do when it's that important and a location has been authorized for that day, a full team of creatives in place, that they don't risk a flake. Which means spending a relatively small amount on a dedicated professional model who will throw herself totally into it and have brought plenty to the table, without question or diva behaviour. And what they do is get references to ensure it if in doubt.



Oh and for Art sake? Artists never moan about paying us.

Christie Gabriel wrote:
I have fun on every shoot, but also have four mouths to feed and a mortgage. It is what it is.

+1000