Morphine Dream wrote:
I don't have much experience photographing black models, i've heard that to get it right you need to make some changes with regards to lighting.  Is this true and if so what are some things i should know.

For sure, you want to avoid overexposure.  If you're using a reflective meter, carefully select an area of the model's face that you will spot.  Depending on the model's complexion, that spot should be placed anwhere from upper Zone IV through mid to upper Zone V.

If you use an incident meter, you should be pretty much right on, but you may wish to bracket towards a bit of underexposure.

With light skin, you model the face with shadows.  With darker skin, you are most likely going to find yourself modeling with highlights.  Be patient, move your lights around, and bracket your exposures.

Belair wrote:
If you use an incident meter, you should be pretty much right on, but you may wish to bracket towards a bit of underexposure.

I shot my first black model a couple weeks ago and another photographer friend of mine suggested this method of metering and it worked like a charm. To be honest, I was worried about the results. But I'll tell ya, it was much easier than shooting many white chicks.

Belair wrote:

For sure, you want to avoid overexposure.  If you're using a reflective meter, carefully select an area of the model's face that you will spot.  Depending on the model's complexion, that spot should be placed anwhere from upper Zone IV through mid to upper Zone V.

If you use an incident meter, you should be pretty much right on, but you may wish to bracket towards a bit of underexposure.

With light skin, you model the face with shadows.  With darker skin, you are most likely going to find yourself modeling with highlights.  Be patient, move your lights around, and bracket your exposures.

That makes sense.. thanks.

utako omori wrote:
if you are photographing just black models, the few small suggestions presented so far will be ok.. The real problems start if you have mixed ethniticies.. Like lets say a black & white model.
you then need to focus more light on just the black model so that the two models look balanced. (and usually you want to bounce the light in)...

The problem really bit me in the ass two shoots. the first time, it shocked me just how much a difference..You could barely see the black model.  The second time i thought i was prepared but still did not have enough light power to solve the problem for my particular shoot. They say the third time is a charm.. i need to buy a 3K light and some accessories.

do an internet search using words like "lighting mixed ethniticies" or such, you'll find much discussion on the cinematography forums,etc...

--utako

I assume you were using a reflective meter?  With an incident meter it wouldn't matter.  Light's light.  That's why wedding photographers can get both the bride and groom correctly exposed in the same shot.

Paul

utako omori wrote:
if you are photographing just black models, the few small suggestions presented so far will be ok.. The real problems start if you have mixed ethniticies.. Like lets say a black & white model.
you then need to focus more light on just the black model so that the two models look balanced. (and usually you want to bounce the light in)...

The problem really bit me in the ass two shoots. the first time, it shocked me just how much a difference..You could barely see the black model.  The second time i thought i was prepared but still did not have enough light power to solve the problem for my particular shoot. They say the third time is a charm.. i need to buy a 3K light and some accessories.

do an internet search using words like "lighting mixed ethniticies" or such, you'll find much discussion on the cinematography forums,etc...

--utako

Mixed scenarios can cause a problem, especially when using a reflective meter.

Most White people have skin that falls somewhere in Zone VI.  Black people have skin that falls in a range anywhere from Zone IV up into Zone VI.  Careful spotmetering of critical areas of each subject will help you place important details in the proper Zone.  An incident reading will give pretty good results.  However, I think you're better off slightly underexposing the White model than overexposing the Black model.

Paul Ferrara wrote:
I assume you were using a reflective meter?  With an incident meter it wouldn't matter.  Light's light.  That's why wedding photographers can get both the bride and groom correctly exposed in the same shot.

Paul

light is light, but different materials absorb/reflect it differently.

my skill level has not yet graduated to understanding meters... my background is more video, not photography.. A long time ago, i watched a series of video lighting tapes "the power of lighting" where they explicitly discuss the problem since they say how dark skin causes problems..

and shure enough, my first mixed ethnic shoot, it was abysmal.. there's a reason my avatar is heavily processed (and not the actual pic)..The second shoot i got better, but still did not have enough horse power,

i'm trying to dig up the net thread that eloquently sums up what i saw on that instructional tape.

--utako

utako omori wrote:

light is light, but different materials absorb/reflect it differently.

my skill level has not yet graduated to understanding meters... my background is more video, not photography.. A long time ago, i watched a series of video lighting tapes "the power of lighting" where they explicitly discuss the problem since they say how dark skin causes problems..

and shure enough, my first mixed ethnic shoot, it was abysmal.. there's a reason my avatar is heavily processed (and not the actual pic)..The second shoot i got better, but still did not have enough horse power,

i'm trying to dig up the net thread that eloquently sums up what i saw on that instructional tape.

--utako

Reflection and absorbtion are immaterial when taking incident readings.

Paul Ferrara wrote:
I assume you were using a reflective meter?  With an incident meter it wouldn't matter.  Light's light.  That's why wedding photographers can get both the bride and groom correctly exposed in the same shot.

Paul

It's not the light, but the tonal range of the film or sensor.  If you expose correctly for dark skin, you run the risk of overexposing light skin.  Expose for light skin and underexpose dark skin.  The effect is most pronounced in transparency film and digital sensors, since they both have a short tonal range.  Color negative film would probably handle the situation the best.

steve_bevacqua wrote:

It's not the light, but the tonal range of the film or sensor.  If you expose correctly for dark skin, you run the risk of overexposing light skin.  Expose for light skin and underexpose dark skin.  The effect is most pronounced in transparency film and digital sensors, since they both have a short tonal range.  Color negative film would probably handle the situation the best.

Actually, you have it backwards.  A reflective reading from Black skin will cause it to be somewhat overexposed.  A reflective reading from White skin will cause it to be underexposed.

Belair wrote:
Actually, you have it backwards.  A reflective reading from Black skin will cause it to be somewhat overexposed.  A reflective reading from White skin will cause it to be underexposed.

While I agree completely with what you just said.......

I was talking about the side-by-side problem (exposing each properly while they're in the same shot), not each individually.  That's the only reason I brought tonal range into it - because film and digital sensors are limited in their ability to reproduce what the eye sees.

happy shooting 

steve_bevacqua wrote:

Belair wrote:
Actually, you have it backwards.  A reflective reading from Black skin will cause it to be somewhat overexposed.  A reflective reading from White skin will cause it to be underexposed.

While I agree completely with what you just said.......

I was talking about the side-by-side problem (exposing each properly while they're in the same shot), not each individually.  That's the only reason I brought tonal range into it - because film and digital sensors are limited in their ability to reproduce what the eye sees.

happy shooting 

steve_bevacqua wrote:

While I agree completely with what you just said.......

I was talking about the side-by-side problem (exposing each properly while they're in the same shot), not each individually.  That's the only reason I brought tonal range into it - because film and digital sensors are limited in their ability to reproduce what the eye sees.

happy shooting 

I was talking about them both being in the same shot.  If you expose both of them properly, they will both come out exposed properly.  There are 3 ways to ensure that they are exposed properly...

1)  Take individual meter readings and place each subject in the proper Zone.  For example, if you spot the White model and she throws an f/8, you know that you'll have to open up one stop to place her in Zone VI.  At the same time, if you spot the Black model, she'll probably throw someplace between f/4 and f/5.6 - so, the f/5.6 you corrected the White model to will result in the proper exposure of the Black model as well.

2)  Take a reflective meter reading off of a Gray Card properly placed in the scene.  In this scenario, the reading would be about an f/5.6.

3)  Take an incident reading of the scene.  Again, it would read an f/5.6 in this scenario.

As far as tonal range goes, there is certainly no more than 2 stops difference between the blackest Black person and the whitest White person.  Negative film, transparency film, and digi-sensors are quite capable of handling a 2-stop range.

steve_bevacqua wrote:
It's not the light, but the tonal range of the film or sensor.  If you expose correctly for dark skin, you run the risk of overexposing light skin.  Expose for light skin and underexpose dark skin.  The effect is most pronounced in transparency film and digital sensors, since they both have a short tonal range.  Color negative film would probably handle the situation the best.

It's the light.  Use an incident meter and meter the light.  Every shot on my port was metered so the light was at f8.  There are blacks, whites, indians, and I'm not sure what else.

Paul

Morphine Dream wrote:
I don't have much experience photographing black models, i've heard that to get it right you need to make some changes with regards to lighting.  Is this true and if so what are some things i should know.

I shoot a lot of black people, since I am doing a lot of work in the urban market, including apparel companies and some recording artists... yeah... and shooting portfolios for black models as well.

I pretty much don't do anything else... I just make sure... as with everyperson that the subject is well lit... shadows giving depth to that field.

Oh... here is a shot I did of a fellow photographer at the Annual NAACP Legal Defense Fund Dinner, really bad lighting, on-camera flash (press setup), I may have taken the flash off, I don't remember. One shot, film and not digital.

I have many many more of course... but if you shoot digital, you always can look at your display and check how the exposure is.

I have others... many shot with off camera or one umbrella to support available lights.

The image was up long enough. Deleted it.

Duarte Photo wrote:
What?  Is this the zone system back in college?  You guys need to chill out. In a real world situation this what you do.  If your shooting daylight or strobe and the model has very dark skin. I recommend using spot grids especially if she is wearing something white or light in tone. 5 to 10 degree about 1/3 to 1/2 stop over your overall exposure and place it directly on her face to "open" it up a bit.  I have a friend who shoots for hip hop clothing line and one time she didn't use the grids and her assistant was griping how much of an idiot she was.  When  I was assisting we had to shoot Tony Gwynn (baseball player) and he's very dark and he was wearing a white uniform.  I think we were about 1/2 over on the grid.  Keep someone on the head in case the subject moves.

No offense Mr Duarte, bring me Lou Armstrong dressed with a white wedding dress and a Yankees baseball cap and I'll give you a first class image with one light, and maybe a couple of white cardborads. In the meantime I'll send all my assistants for beer.Regards. Tito Trelles

Belair wrote:
The Zone System works just fine for digital.

Hello, while I agree in part with you, I disagree in the sense that Adams create that system based in a relationship between many factors, the two most importants were light and developing time, developing time was dictated for the film, the amount of light the subject was receiving, and the characteristics of the scene. You can use the ZS with digital to setup your lights and to have an idea of how much contrast the scene has. With film you oveexpose at the time of the shooting and you can do two things...underdevelop and use a higher contrast paper
or give more time on the enlarger, the print will come grainier, but most of the time usable. You overexpose with digital and you will loose the highlights, the colors are twisted and unless the person is a real Photoshop artist, the results will be okay, just okay. And now I am through, I hope this helps. Take care you all. Tito Trelles

Belair wrote:
Film processing/development manipulation used in the back end of the Zone System can be, to a considerable degree, replicated through manipulation of the L curve in LAB mode.  Of course, because digital cameras still have a problem holding detail in highlights, metering for the highlights has to be a thoughtful undertaking.

Certainly I am not suggesting that the tonal range of digital images can be stretched to the degree that film images may be using Adams' methodology.  What I am saying is that the Zone System is a perfectly good basis for ensuring proper exposure.

I agree with you 100%. T

Tito Trelles wrote:

I agree with you 100%. T

That makes two of us!  A good start I guess...

Tito Trelles wrote:
No offense Mr Duarte, bring me Lou Armstrong dressed with a white wedding dress and a Yankees baseball cap and I'll give you a first class image with one light, and maybe a couple of white cardborads. In the meantime I'll send all my assistants for beer.Regards. Tito Trelles

On chrome? No post.  No black and white.  In a fifteen minute window?

I'll be sitting here with my beer.

BTW I really love your street work.  It's great...

Belair wrote:
The Zone System works just fine for digital.

Ok you've got me, what is the zone system.  I have no formal education in photography and learning by assisting and books.

Morphine Dream wrote:

Ok you've got me, what is the zone system.  I have no formal education in photography and learning by assisting and books.

I suggest strongly that you pick up Ansel Adams' 3-book set: "The Camera", "The Negative", "The Print."  Read them carefully.

Belair wrote:

I suggest strongly that you pick up Ansel Adams' 3-book set: "The Camera", "The Negative", "The Print."  Read them carefully.

Here's an online resource i found to get you started. I can't vouch for it's quality, as i'm just learning myself, but it references Ansel Adams's The Negative as the source of much of its information.

[link]http://www.cicada.com/pub/photo/zs/[/link]