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The nerve of me asking a model to work for money
I see a model here on MM and she is about an hour from my studio. She has a great look, beautiful face/figure/portfolio...just an excellent overall appearance. So I send her an note...simple, "Hi, I saw your portfolio on MM and we'd like to work with you." That was about it. I get back a note...,"You've already written me 3 times wanting to work with me and I don't need to pay photographers! I have all the photographers I want that will shoot me for TFP." Thats not an exact quote, but close. Models, when a working commercial Photographer writes you and says he wants to WORK with YOU, that means he has a PAYING job for you and he wants to pay YOU! So sad that the internet web modeling thing has so gotten the equation out of balance that models don't realize that there are actually people who want to PAY them for commercial work. I shoot stock images and this young lady was lovely for the type of work I do, and she would have made a nice day rate for commercial lifestyle images. How did the modeling world get so out of kilter that the original intent of modeling, to provide models for paid commercial work, get so lost? May 05 05 01:14 pm Link First and foremost, you are right, and I agree with you. That said, might I suggest presuming that the llama's not going to get it, and send the email to the tune of, "Hey, you have a great look that would be perfect for a client of mine? The project is blah blah blah and they're paying a rate of $xx/hour and I expect the shoot to take N hours." No chance of them misinterpreting that, I should think. May 05 05 01:20 pm Link LMAO.... sooooo not business minded! I often wonder why not just ask simply "What did you have in mind?" The way you posted the response she comes off as rude. And who wants to work with someone like that anyway? But Chris is VERY correct. I think more people need to be specific with what they want. This way there are no misunderstandings. You know what's funny? I hear that from models about photographers also. Soooo much ego flying around and so little business sense. May 05 05 01:28 pm Link Often, a note like that does mean you're trying to get the llama to pay you. Her response may have been unnecessarily rude, but it really helps to be a little more descriptive in your initial contact. I really hate getting one-line notes like that. I have a canned response for them asking for further information, but vague emails almost never result in any work. Posted by glenn usdin: May 05 05 02:01 pm Link Posted by DJ Foothill: Regardless if she did not understand what you said, and regardless if you were saying you wanted to shoot and she'd have to pay. You wrote three times then how hard would it of been to write back the first time and say "sorry I'm not interested". Nevertheless, you never stated one way or the other in what you wrote so you'd think she'd write back to clarify what you were offering. May 05 05 02:06 pm Link Geezus Glenn! How dare you offer a TFP llama paid work!! LMAO!! Nope,...she is just interested in continuously building her portfolio for MORE TFP shoots!! LOL!! I had a llama contact me recently,...asking to book a shoot with her soon,...and she came to me asking what my rates for her ideas were to begin with, so I knew that she valued professional service such as this,....well, upon telling her,...she consulted with her "manager" who called me, asking me to reduce my rates!! Forget it! JP May 05 05 02:15 pm Link Posted by AshleyDanielle: Since when has saying no the first three times dissuaded them from asking again? May 05 05 02:33 pm Link Posted by theda: Perhaps you and others could respond to any offers regardless of how vague they are,. simply by asking for more details...which shows that you are possibly interested.. It's just a matter of business edicate.. since llamaing is a business....right? May 05 05 03:42 pm Link Glen Finally someone came out and said what I have thought for several years. Instead of TFCD I would rather think of it as an exchange of services. The model gets a CD of ALL images at full size to use as self promotion. I get the opportunity to work with a model of my choice....not a client's choice. If imagages are purchased by individuals I give the model 20% of gross or 50% of net. If it is a shoot for a client there is always a set fee up front. If the model the client supplied was easy to work with I generally paid her more than we agreed on initally. Owned a full service advertising agency for almost 30 years. I am semi-retired now and sometines happy to be away from some of the BS that takes place in this business. I love what I get to do now and that's pay enough sometimes. May 05 05 04:12 pm Link I may be wrong, but ussually in the internet world of TFP's when someone mentions that they want to "Work with" to my knowledge is that they want to do some kind of TFP arrangement or do something where both parties benefit, the word "I would like to hire you" sounds more direct, and the words "I will be glad to give you a quote on.." implies that you want to receive payment for your work. Also, the person doing the contacting when it is a "Work with" interest more than likely may as well be interestes on paying the llama if he/she requires to and if the photographer really wants to pay them bc he/she feels the llama will bring value to his craft and the reverse is also correct. Said that, I do not see where she thought that she was supposed to pay you as the Statement could go from TFP to I will pay you...I ussually when I get a llama who says I want to work with you, I ask what exactly does she means by that as the term could very from mind to mind, then I proceed to answer the question. The Problem is when llamas do not read the questions or sentences correctly and that said alot about their professional skills, yes a we all want to use prety llamas, but brains go far away and reputation and referals can win the world... I ussually send out notices to new llamas to certain sites offering my services as a Photographer ad a "reasonable prices", and I often get llamas responding and saying..."I am interested, how much will you Pay ME and do you pay Travel?" or I get the rude ones saying "I WILL NOT EVER PAY A PHOTOGRAPHER" but yet they have crappy portfolios and for that attitude even if I had paid work or know another photographer who needs her looks, I would not hire her nor refer her, so with that coment she lost more than what she will ever imagine, llamaing is not just looks, it is the professional attitude that makes a professional llama along with her knowledge of the business...the best thing to do is just say I am not interested at the moment, but I will keep you in mind...that will keep the doors open as you never know who actually is looking at that email or who will be that person next year. May 05 05 05:04 pm Link I had a past Playboy llama email me saying she wanted to do TFP to help build her website. I guess I saw her post on a messageboard looking for a photographer and I told her to contact me. When she emailed me, all she said was that she liked my work and was interested in working with me. She didn't say who she was and I took the email and did my usual reply at the time... "These are my prices". Boy was she pissed. Talking about, "Do you know who I am?" I'm like, "No, who the hell are you?" lol oh wells. Life moves on.  May 05 05 05:35 pm Link well the llama contacted me back and said that she mis-understood my note to her and she had been written to many other photogs wanting her to pay her..so I think all is well in llama/photographer heaven. Or is it hell? May 05 05 06:59 pm Link Posted by glenn usdin: Well, did you write her three times before asking to do TFP? If so, I can understand why she might think you still wanted TFP. Like others have said already, I don't see why not state specifically it was a pay offer. May 05 05 07:01 pm Link Posted By glenn usdin: I've said it before and I'll say it again ... life moves pretty fast. You don't stop and look around once in awhile, you could miss it. Posted By glenn usdin: Here, I would agree with Theda. If you were offering this llama a paid shoot, well, you should have SAID it was a paid shoot. I mean, clear and effective communication is important. Your note to her was rather vague. May 05 05 08:26 pm Link My profile states I'll shoot for a fee or TFCD on a sliding scale basis. (It's entirely arbitrary depending on a number of things.) Occasionally I'll get an email asking what I charge. Before mentioning my rates I take the time to explain what we will be doing during the shoot. The amount of time, the number of outfits, looks, poses and pictures taken. I explain how I'll edit the best pictures and the ones they like without setting a limit on those edited. (It has never been taken advantage of.) Then I mention my rates. It doesn't matter if I tell them $10,000 or $10, they NEVER get back with me. If they had asked for a TFP shoot in the first place I probably would have said yes. Why tell me you love my work and really wish to shoot with me and then not bother replying when I tell you it's almost free??? May 05 05 10:50 pm Link I've had some weird rude give me money responces, and your a photographer you must be filthy rich cause your port is "fantastic". Some people aren't able to wrap their mind around the fact that not every photographer is getting paid alot, and not everyone is going to take kindly to hey pay me pay me pay me... I know it might be slightly off topic but reading all the posts made me think about that May 05 05 11:00 pm Link Posted by Michael Rothman: Wouldn't make a difference if it was TFP. I get "I love your work, would love to shoot with you, would you consider TFP with me?" I respond basically with "when and where?" and .... nothing. May 05 05 11:05 pm Link I think the reason why we snap sometimes is because a lot of times I will get an e-mail like you sent. Because of it's vagueness,I assume it's nude. This happens 99.9% of the time when I reply back "what do you have in mind?". Then when I say I have made a personal decision to not do nudes anymore as I am freelancing for a commercial agency, they go insane and make it like they are doing me a favor to pose nude without any artistic content for free. All in all,like Theda said, just be specific in an e-mail. For every normal guy, like you Glenn, there are 50 more that can't take a pic and just want to see T&A. By the way, I need more commercial /stock shots if you are interested:-) May 05 05 11:13 pm Link Posted by Naomi Jay: .... By the way, I need more commercial /stock shots if you are interested:-) I shoot stock. May 06 05 09:38 am Link Maybe it's just me here, but I'm thinking if a photographer contacts a llama, isn't it a little ballsy to be like, "I like your work, why don't you pay me to take pictures of you?" from a llamaing perspective, if a photographer contacts me for a shoot, i'd never think that he was soliciting me to pay him. that's senseless. May 06 05 09:43 am Link I can not begin to tell you the number of times a llama has approached me about doing a shoot only to later tell me they do not do TFP or they do not do nudes (um hello, look at the profile again please!) It got to the point where I had to be specific on my omp profile. So there I am with all this specificness on my profile, and I found a teen in NJ that was perfect for a paying job I had. I wrote her the following mail: "Hi, I like your portfolio. I have a job that pays $150 for a client out of NYC for an international magazine ad. I am interested in using you for that ad. You will be shooting in front of a train station in jeans and a variety of t-shirts with different comments on them. Please let me know if you are interested, and if so, your availability. Also, I need to know your size for jeans and for t-shirts." I got a response back from her. "I am a minor! I do not do Nudes! You are a pervert!" I wrote back, "Huh? Nudes? Where did I mention nude?" her response, "Your profile says NUDE MEANS NUDE. I do not do nudes." At which time I decided the elevator there did not go to the top floor and moved on. :-) May 06 05 10:18 am Link Glenn PLEASE let me know who the llama was.......so I don't waste my time ever contacting them! Israel May 06 05 11:15 am Link Posted by Synthetic Shadows: I think I have to *mostly* agree with this one. I completely understand the photographer's need for promotion, but on the other hand, as a poor llama, I need to either get TFP or paid shoots. I just cant afford to pay a photographer and pay rent at the same time. Now $10 might not be out of the question, but I've had photographers ask me to pay upwards of $500 for a shoot and images. Jebus! Wouldn't life be grand if *I* could get $500 for a shoot? May 06 05 11:25 am Link |
