Mike Cummings wrote:
FEMA Chief Sent Help Only When Storm Ended.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_disa … JCoT6s0NUE

Quick breakdown of the story. The head of FEMA, Michael Brown, waited 5 hours before asking his "boss", the head of Homeland Security to allow him to send 1000 FEMA workers to the disaster area. His memo lacked "urgent wording" and ended with "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities."

WTF! Do you think Michael Brown was tasting breakfast while he was kissing ass? Good God where was that man's balls? Michael Brown is the head of FEMA and should know what resources he will need. Fuck they had enough practice in Florida last year.. ain't like it is new.. just bigger. Those resources should have been on standby. Not like the hurricane just showed up. Katrina called ahead.

I read a story that firefighters are holed up in Atlanta waiting for FEMA to send them in. They had to go through FEMA training first.. you know on the important things like sexual harassment. FEMA says they want to make sure they send them to the most needed locations. Give me a fucking break. You send them in and let them do thier jobs, then just like any other project you move them to where they are most needed when you find the need.

..."The same day Brown wrote Chertoff, Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts."...

Michael Brown needs to be fired. Be glad he does not run the fire or police services in your home town.

Does anyone else see Katrina not only going down in history but also being a major polictical play in the elections not only THIS november but the 2008 elections as well when we go to pick a new presadent? I mean after all Mr. Bush asigned these gum ball machine idiots in to the jobs they have, whats to stop this from happening next year? And the fallowing?

Lexi Lithium wrote:

Does anyone else see Katrina not only going down in history but also being a major polictical play in the elections not only THIS november but the 2008 elections as well when we go to pick a new presadent? I mean after all Mr. Bush asigned these gum ball machine idiots in to the jobs they have, whats to stop this from happening next year? And the fallowing?

I am sure.. sHillary has already started her shit.

Joe K. Perez wrote:
Here's the thing. It's like people in the decision making positions don't wanna take a risk when it's needed. They don't wanna put their necks out on the line. Sometimes, they spend way too much time being sure they are walking a straight line and not stepping on the cracks. Remember that game on the sidewalks?

Well guess what. Terrorists take major risks and stick their necks out to dry big time and they don't care if they step on the cracks. They see a goal, they set their minds to it and they do whatever it takes to reach it.

If you were ever wondering how do we battle on a level field with terrorists and put an end to their parade? We gotta take bigger risks and stick our necks out farther than they do and walk on the lines and cracks like we dancing the fucky chicken! You got to think like a Terrorist in order to position yourself three steps ahead of them.

THAT'S how you battle Terrorists!

Homeland security? I dunno man. What kind of street experience do they have besides walking the street that connects their college dorms to the Library? If none of them have ever stolen a car (with the intent to borrow and not steal), or lifted a bottle of men's cologne at the mall and got away with it, then I doubt any of them got what it takes to out-think Terrorists, or criminals for that matter.


Dengggg. I can't believe I wrote all that just now. Heh.

I have nothing to add to your rant.. You said it well.

Joe K. Perez wrote:
Here's the thing. It's like people in the decision making positions don't wanna take a risk when it's needed. They don't wanna put their necks out on the line. Sometimes, they spend way too much time being sure they are walking a straight line and not stepping on the cracks. Remember that game on the sidewalks?

Well guess what. Terrorists take major risks and stick their necks out to dry big time and they don't care if they step on the cracks. They see a goal, they set their minds to it and they do whatever it takes to reach it.

If you were ever wondering how do we battle on a level field with terrorists and put an end to their parade? We gotta take bigger risks and stick our necks out farther than they do and walk on the lines and cracks like we dancing the fucky chicken! You got to think like a Terrorist in order to position yourself three steps ahead of them.

THAT'S how you battle Terrorists!

Homeland security? I dunno man. What kind of street experience do they have besides walking the street that connects their college dorms to the Library? If none of them have ever stolen a car (with the intent to borrow and not steal), or lifted a bottle of men's cologne at the mall and got away with it, then I doubt any of them got what it takes to out-think Terrorists, or criminals for that matter.


Dengggg. I can't believe I wrote all that just now. Heh.

I get the impression we're at some anti-coverment rally.. lmao. Peace signs and screaming about how unfair they are.. Oh I'm getting goofy.

Robb Radford wrote:
Now the big question here is why is the structure setup that the State has to ask for it? FEMA should have just rolled in and done what was needed.

It's set up that way in the Constitution to protect State's Rights. I don't want to scrap the Constitution to give any Federal Agency the power to just come into my state anytime they want to for any reason. That's why the decision rested with the Governor; the Fed needed her permission to enter the state.  Silly as it sounds, I think it's wise.

Second, FEMA is not a "first response" agency, they don't have the logistics nor authority to literally "invade" a State to provide aid. What do they do?  I'm not quite sure, but I'm trying to find out.

Joe K. Perez wrote:
That's just me   ...and that's how it is in the military. We move like we got a purpose in life.

RANGER!!!!!!

I can't agree with you more on this one.  Make it happen and deal with it after the fact.  Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

HALO Out!!

Toya Michele wrote:
*sigh*

I was hoping that by now, over a week later, no matter who was and wasn't to blame, they would have gotten their acts together.

No such thing. It's not left or right. It's WRONG or RIGHT and as a previous poster stated...this is about HUMAN BEINGS. I have been reading blogs from volunteers and such and the stuff going on down there just can not be fathomed. The police shot a 9 and 12 year old for "looting" food in a store; and then just left them there. There are pick-up trucks that are filled with bodies of dead babies; the babies died from dehydration and who knows what else, and the people just started putting all the bodies there.

I am in DC and we just got bus loads of evacuees and from what I hear...the situation is deplorable. They were almost better being left in NO; the only difference is that they have shelter. They are expecting 300 kids that have no family.

Bush, FEMA, Blanco, Nagin...they are ALL responsible in some part and they ALL need to deal with the red tape later and get on the ball NOW before more people die!

Please link to those stories. Somehow I don't think either of those things really happened.

Chris Hansen wrote:

RANGER!!!!!!

I can't agree with you more on this one.  Make it happen and deal with it after the fact.  Easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

HALO Out!!

Yes on a "personal" level it is easier to ask for forgiveness. If the Feds went in with out permission in a cordinated effort, Bush and crew would be accused of usurping states rights. Remember that is what started the civil war, contrary to the revisionist history being taught today.

Melvin Moten Jr wrote:
The part that makes me sad is that we can't stop thinking in terms of Left or Right even in the face of a disaster of this magnatude?  What's it going to take before we realize that Left or Right, we're all Americans and Human Beings first? 

Let's bury the dead, aid the living, start rebuilding and then we can fight about whose fault it all is.

Don't be sad, when you have people willing to bash "the other side" at the drop of the hat, you will always have left and right issues.

On a personal level we know we are all human beings, but when you put power as the ultimate prize you will always have politics. Human nature. Blame it on Eve and the apple.

Mike Cummings wrote:

Yes on a "personal" level it is easier to ask for forgiveness. If the Feds went in with out permission in a cordinated effort, Bush and crew would be accused of usurping states rights. Remember that is what started the civil war, contrary to the revisionist history being taught today.

It seems like it's a matter of perception then. You used the expression, "If the Feds went in...", creating the impression that they were coming in as aggressors and not as humanitarian aid helping their countrymen.

Joe K. Perez wrote:

It seems like it's a matter of perception then. You used the expression, "If the Feds went in...", creating the impression that they were coming in as aggressors and not as humanitarian aid helping their countrymen.

If it is a firehouse sending in help that would be ok, but you can't allow the feds to usurp states authority. That would set a presedense(sp?) that we don't want or need.

Joe K. Perez wrote:
Didn't I write it earlier in another thread that the slow response was probably due to bureaucracy!? I knew it. I just knew it.

I get shit every now and then at work for telling it like it is. Not in a brash way, but in a blunt way and it trips me out how it gets to making peoples' eyeballs do the spins.

I'm like, Dood! Don't take it personal. When things need to happen yesterday, fuck all the formalities and especially, all the cover-your-ass games. Constituents (disaster victims), need help yesterday. You're going to tell me that we're going to waste precious time just to be sure some higher-up's ego isn't made to feel like the Janitor!? Welcome to the gotdamn club! We're all made to feel like that every now and then and then, we cope! But, afterwards!

Fuck that! If it's the Pope and I need to bark a command for him to move so he doesn't get squashed by some Piano, or get in between a bleeding man and his Doctor, I'm gonna tell him to fucking move!

That's just me   ...and that's how it is in the military. We move like we got a purpose in life.

I think that's going to be the ultimate outcome from this.  That bureaucracy impedes logical order and necessity.  From what I heard, there were a lot of ambulances held up in Tenessee, becuase no one would give the ok for them to roll out.  It's too bad, but we live in a day and age where a lot of the people who have the authority to make decisions DON'T, because they second guess themselves and then worry about the reprocussions.  This forces situations to get out of control at a base level and then escalate to bigger problems.

I think in part, it's because IF something does go wrong, the lawsuits are filed before the dust settles; and the entity they go after is usually the one with the deepest pockets.

Ed Burns Photography wrote:

I think that's going to be the ultimate outcome from this.  That bureaucracy impedes logical order and necessity.  From what I heard, there were a lot of ambulances held up in Tenessee, becuase no one would give the ok for them to roll out.  It's too bad, but we live in a day and age where a lot of the people who have the authority to make decisions DON'T, because they second guess themselves and then worry about the reprocussions.  This forces situations to get out of control at a base level and then escalate to bigger problems.

I think in part, it's because IF something does go wrong, the lawsuits are filed before the dust settles; and the entity they go after is usually the one with the deepest pockets.

That and people are quick to blame without the facts. People look at who ever is in power that is not thier guy and fix the blame there. Repugs did it with Clinton, Demoncats do it with Bush. Kinda takes the "git 'r' done" attitude right outta there, don't it.

Robb Radford wrote:
2. Blame the LA Gov who, when asked by HLS if she needed help she couldn't decide until 24 hours later. While both MI and AL had already stated that Marshall law was being put into place the LA Gov couldn't make up her mind. I have heard several times on TV that why didn't the Gov could have asked for things like for 1 of the 9 semi truck loads of Fire Equipment that has Millions of $$ in equipment to be used was not asked for. Each truck had 200 radios that would have helped. This is among other things that she couldn't decide on doing.

Blanco claims she requested assistance from the pentagon on Friday, August 26.  The "official" paper work did not get to her for serveral days, so neither did the troops.

Once Bush declared the state of emergency in LA, as requested by Blanco (August 27), FEMA had its authority to go in. They didn't go in.

And are you sure the Declared MARSHALL law? I thought it was a state of emergency and mandatory evacuations, not marshall law.

Mike Cummings wrote:
FEMA Chief Sent Help Only When Storm Ended.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/katrina_disa … JCoT6s0NUE

Quick breakdown of the story. The head of FEMA, Michael Brown, waited 5 hours before asking his "boss", the head of Homeland Security to allow him to send 1000 FEMA workers to the disaster area. His memo lacked "urgent wording" and ended with "Thank you for your consideration in helping us to meet our responsibilities."

WTF! Do you think Michael Brown was tasting breakfast while he was kissing ass? Good God where was that man's balls? Michael Brown is the head of FEMA and should know what resources he will need. Fuck they had enough practice in Florida last year.. ain't like it is new.. just bigger. Those resources should have been on standby. Not like the hurricane just showed up. Katrina called ahead.

I read a story that firefighters are holed up in Atlanta waiting for FEMA to send them in. They had to go through FEMA training first.. you know on the important things like sexual harassment. FEMA says they want to make sure they send them to the most needed locations. Give me a fucking break. You send them in and let them do thier jobs, then just like any other project you move them to where they are most needed when you find the need.

..."The same day Brown wrote Chertoff, Brown also urged local fire and rescue departments outside Louisiana, Alabama and Mississippi not to send trucks or emergency workers into disaster areas without an explicit request for help from state or local governments. Brown said it was vital to coordinate fire and rescue efforts."...

Michael Brown needs to be fired. Be glad he does not run the fire or police services in your home town.

Send them where?  New Orleans?  Rural LA?  To do what?  New Orleans was spared the wrath of the Hurricane.  It was the levees that did NO in.  Five hours after the Hurricane the last levee that broke was probably still in tact!

bencook2 wrote:

Send them where?  New Orleans?  Rural LA?  To do what?  New Orleans was spared the wrath of the Hurricane.  It was the levees that did NO in.  Five hours after the Hurricane the last levee that broke was probably still in tact!

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm
Mr. Brown actually responded to this disaster awhiles ago...  Check his own words...

theda wrote:
Once Bush declared the state of emergency in LA, as requested by Blanco (August 27), FEMA had its authority to go in. They didn't go in.

And are you sure the Declared MARSHALL law? I thought it was a state of emergency and mandatory evacuations, not marshall law.

Again...go in where?  Be specific.  Into the Hurricane? 

FEMA does not "go in" it directs resources "in".  Having lived through a few of these (one cat 5, Hugo) you can go "in" ahead of time.  Only after.  Only after you know where your resources are most needed.  AND.  Getting "in" after a Hurricane is not as easy as hopping on the interstate.

bencook2 wrote:
Again...go in where?  Be specific.  Into the Hurricane? 

FEMA does not "go in" it directs resources "in".  Having lived through a few of these (one cat 5, Hugo) you can go "in" ahead of time.  Only after.  Only after you know where your resources are most needed.  AND.  Getting "in" after a Hurricane is not as easy as hopping on the interstate.

Fine. I'll rephrase it. FEMA had the authority to send relief into NOAL and the surrounding areas since before the hurricaine hit. Obviously, relief couldn't enter the affected areas until Monday, but they waited until Wednesday or Thursday.

I've also lived through a few hurricaines, though no category 5s. Getting it can be difficult, but some how a bunch of reporters managed to do what those rescue teams couldn't. They just hopped in the interstate.

theda wrote:

Fine. I'll rephrase it. FEMA had the authority to send relief into NOAL and the surrounding areas since before the hurricaine hit. Obviously, relief couldn't enter the affected areas until Monday, but they waited until Wednesday or Thursday.

I've also lived through a few hurricaines, though no category 5s. Getting it can be difficult, but some how a bunch of reporters managed to do what those rescue teams couldn't. They just hopped in the interstate.

Some reporters were already there.  I think we are having a problem realizing the scope of the relief needed.  Wave your magic wand and turn those 20 or so SUV's full of reporters into Aid workers...that is a drop in the bucket.  Wave it again and turn those 20 into 200 and it is STILL a drop in the bucket.  The scope of relief needed is measured in tons...1000's of tons.  Ten's of thousand's of tons.  That kind of relief is not and can not be acurately or SAFELY "pre" positioned.  Having been through a hurricane yourself you know that you can not predict its direction accurately...especially before it hits land.  It is dangerous hundreds of miles inland.  So again, where do you station that relief?  The answer: you station the aid where the aid already is...  You station the administrators of that aid as close as you can safely get them.

PS...FEMA had rescuers in immediatly after the Huricane. (Coast Guard, Boat Crews, etc.)
PSS...I am not saying it went well.

bencook2 wrote:

Send them where?  New Orleans?  Rural LA?  To do what?  New Orleans was spared the wrath of the Hurricane.  It was the levees that did NO in.  Five hours after the Hurricane the last levee that broke was probably still in tact!

Rural La., Gulf coast Miss. There were other places to send the "troops". But let's pretend that NO was the only place to get hit. When did the levee break? Why was the story about the firefighter I read posted this past Tuesday? Your excuse buys them ONE day, no more.

Josie Nutter wrote:
FEMA is _still_ dicking around.

http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

You are just trying to keep me pissed off aren't you.

My dad was a firefighter, they understand the danger, it is their job. Having them hand out phone numbers or standing next to Bush in a photo op is a slap in the face to what these people do.

The Art of CIP wrote:

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm
Mr. Brown actually responded to this disaster awhiles ago...  Check his own words...

Sounds pretty don't it.

Mike Cummings wrote:

You are just trying to keep me pissed off aren't you.

My dad was a firefighter, they understand the danger, it is their job. Having them hand out phone numbers or standing next to Bush in a photo op is a slap in the face to what these people do.

two of my very best friends are firefighters and you speaking for all of them is a slap in the face!  Get over yourself.

Mike Cummings wrote:

Rural La., Gulf coast Miss. There were other places to send the "troops". But let's pretend that NO was the only place to get hit. When did the levee break? Why was the story about the firefighter I read posted this past Tuesday? Your excuse buys them ONE day, no more.

It is not an excuse...it is a fact.  Just like it is a fact that you still don't understand the difference between the storm they prepared for and the one they got!  If you want to blame them for underpreparing...I can't argue that.  If you want to bitch about the timeliness of the response...you can make a good arguement.  But, if you want to blow it out of perportion, concentrate on the mistakes, ignore the thousands of things they did right (people saved early)...go right ahead.  Again, you will never be able to "out guess" mother nature.  I have gone through evacuation myself.  Inland...does not matter to a cat 4-5 hurricane.  Charlotte NC was completely devistated by Hugo that went ashore some 200 miles away in SC.  People keep posting this link to Brown talking about the success they had with Isabelle.  That is the worst analogy yet!  The two had nothing in common.  Fema is reacting to an area twice the size of Isabelle.(if not three times)  There are way more people DIRECTLY effected in this storm.  There is no comparison.  There is no comparison to HUGO or ANDREW...the two most costly storms on record..till now.  You are missing the point and you are not even close.  But don't worry you have lots of company.

bencook2 wrote:
two of my very best friends are firefighters and you speaking for all of them is a slap in the face!  Get over yourself.

The consider it a slap in the face.

Are you saying your friends don't understand the dangers they face? Ask your friends if they think handing out phone numbers or being a photo op background is the best use of their training and skills. Report your findings here. If they don't understand the dangers or duty, they need to get out now. They are a danger to their fellow firemen.

bencook2 wrote:

It is not an excuse...it is a fact.  Just like it is a fact that you still don't understand the difference between the storm they prepared for and the one they got!  If you want to blame them for underpreparing...I can't argue that.  If you want to bitch about the timeliness of the response...you can make a good arguement.  But, if you want to blow it out of perportion, concentrate on the mistakes, ignore the thousands of things they did right (people saved early)...go right ahead.  Again, you will never be able to "out guess" mother nature.  I have gone through evacuation myself.  Inland...does not matter to a cat 4-5 hurricane.  Charlotte NC was completely devistated by Hugo that went ashore some 200 miles away in SC.  People keep posting this link to Brown talking about the success they had with Isabelle.  That is the worst analogy yet!  The two had nothing in common.  Fema is reacting to an area twice the size of Isabelle.(if not three times)  There are way more people DIRECTLY effected in this storm.  There is no comparison.  There is no comparison to HUGO or ANDREW...the two most costly storms on record..till now.  You are missing the point and you are not even close.  But don't worry you have lots of company.

I am not even close? You said "Send them where?  New Orleans?  Rural LA?  To do what?  New Orleans was spared the wrath of the Hurricane.  It was the levees that did NO in.  Five hours after the Hurricane the last levee that broke was probably still in tact!" My reply was "Rural La., Gulf coast Miss. There were other places to send the "troops". But let's pretend that NO was the only place to get hit. "

Why were they not sent to Rural La or Gulf Coast Miss.? Why was FEMA not prepared? Why are trained firefighters giving out phone numbers? If the firefighters HAD been sent to rural La. or Mississippi and the NO levee broke, they could have been redirected to NO. You are on both sides of the fence. You are saying FEMA did not send "troops" because NO was OK until the levee broke, and yet you say the storm effected a bunch of people not in NO. Where are the FEMA "troops" for the people not in NO? If FEMA had sent the firefighters that are handing out phone numbers or cooling their heels in Atlanta to the other areas, they would have been close by when they were needed in NO.

In that speech that was linked to, FEMA bragged how they had "kits" prepacked and ready to go. Please explain why people were allowed to go hungry while they waited at the convention center like they were told to do?

At this point it seems FEMA is dragging their feet, maybe because dead men don't bitch.

theda wrote:

Blanco claims she requested assistance from the pentagon on Friday, August 26.  The "official" paper work did not get to her for serveral days, so neither did the troops.

Once Bush declared the state of emergency in LA, as requested by Blanco (August 27), FEMA had its authority to go in. They didn't go in.

And are you sure the Declared MARSHALL law? I thought it was a state of emergency and mandatory evacuations, not marshall law.

Did FedEx stop running? Why did it take several days foi the paperework?

Lexi Lithium wrote:
Does anyone else see Katrina not only going down in history but also being a major polictical play in the elections not only THIS november but the 2008 elections as well when we go to pick a new presadent? I mean after all Mr. Bush asigned these gum ball machine idiots in to the jobs they have, whats to stop this from happening next year? And the fallowing?

I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The American electorate is fickle & easily distracted. Just take a look at how fast we quickly bought the Administration's reasoning for going into Iraq.

Mike Cummings wrote:

The consider it a slap in the face.

Are you saying your friends don't understand the dangers they face? Ask your friends if they think handing out phone numbers or being a photo op background is the best use of their training and skills. Report your findings here. If they don't understand the dangers or duty, they need to get out now. They are a danger to their fellow firemen.

whewww, that's some pretty deep arrogance your stepping in there buddy!
I don't think you are qualified to decide what is important to professional Fireman  or the best use of their skills and training.  If so, I appoligize.  But, please post your creditials.

Mike Cummings wrote:

I am not even close? You said "Send them where?  New Orleans?  Rural LA?  To do what?  New Orleans was spared the wrath of the Hurricane.  It was the levees that did NO in.  Five hours after the Hurricane the last levee that broke was probably still in tact!" My reply was "Rural La., Gulf coast Miss. There were other places to send the "troops". But let's pretend that NO was the only place to get hit. "

Why were they not sent to Rural La or Gulf Coast Miss.? Why was FEMA not prepared? Why are trained firefighters giving out phone numbers? If the firefighters HAD been sent to rural La. or Mississippi and the NO levee broke, they could have been redirected to NO. You are on both sides of the fence. You are saying FEMA did not send "troops" because NO was OK until the levee broke, and yet you say the storm effected a bunch of people not in NO. Where are the FEMA "troops" for the people not in NO? If FEMA had sent the firefighters that are handing out phone numbers or cooling their heels in Atlanta to the other areas, they would have been close by when they were needed in NO.

In that speech that was linked to, FEMA bragged how they had "kits" prepacked and ready to go. Please explain why people were allowed to go hungry while they waited at the convention center like they were told to do?

At this point it seems FEMA is dragging their feet, maybe because dead men don't bitch.

It useless you are rehashing arguements already proven to be incorrect.  Your premise is all wrong and you would rather "be right" than learn something.  I am done with you.  Enjoy the wonderfulness that is you.

bencook2 wrote:

whewww, that's some pretty deep arrogance your stepping in there buddy!
I don't think you are qualified to decide what is important to professional Fireman  or the best use of their skills and training.  If so, I appoligize.  But, please post your creditials.

Let's see Dad was a firefighter, both Air Force and civillian, brother is a cop, step mom was a prison guard until she blew out a knee, then a dispatcher, step mom's new husband is a cop. (my dad passed) My cousin was a dispatcher, my other cousin's husband was an MP, Grand father on one side was a Marine, on the other side was Army Air Corp. Grand mother was a matron at a reform school. I was taught at a very young age about duty and the dangers a firefighter, cop, soldier, guard or anyone in the "help" fields faces. When I was young I was the "go-fer" for my dad while he recovered from a block wall that caved on him. I have heard countless stories about what happened on the job. The feel good stories and the "gotta puke now, thanks dad" stories. The firefighters I know would not want to hand out phone numbers when there are people in danger. When people need the skills, heart and courage the firefighters and police possess.
Couple that with the words of the firefighters that are cooling thier heels. See what they say about it.