David Moyle wrote:
Oh, I agree, he should have absolutely looked her in the face and said, you are incompetant to make decisions, get out of the way! But, you know as well as I do that you and all the liberals would then be saying "he just took over like a Texas Cowboy wannabe , ignored state's rights, and did what he wanted"

Oh, I would have been all 100% for it, and you know that no one would have been against the federal government stepping in, save for the fringe elements on the left.  Please, David - You know me better than this.  I'll be the first to tell the president he's done a good job, and I don't care who the president is.

David Moyle wrote:
You don't like it either way, so us evil conservatives are just used to all the complaining and just accept that that's the way it's gonna be.

Please, have I ever called you evil?  Have I ever called anyone in here evil?  There are very few people on MM I respect more than you, and you know that.  Few conservatives are evil, and the same can be said of liberals.  This demonization of the other side is absolutely killing the public discourse in this country, and it's got to stop.

David Moyle wrote:
Just someone, please, explain to me why the Governor, when presented with her options in a meeting with the president said she needed 24 hours to think. Or, why, today she announced that the mayor's mandatory evacuation of N.O. was not his decision and not up to him, but up to her.

If she was so interested in Federal help, why is she trying to make it seem like it's her decision and then, she doesn't make any decisions.

It's called Passing The Buck, and I've heard a lot of it lately...

Jeffrey Haas wrote:
Oh, I would have been all 100% for it, and you know that no one would have been against the federal government stepping in, save for the fringe elements on the left.  Please, David - You know me better than this.  I'll be the first to tell the president he's done a good job, and I don't care who the president is.


Please, have I ever called you evil?  Have I ever called anyone in here evil?  There are very few people on MM I respect more than you, and you know that.  Few conservatives are evil, and the same can be said of liberals.  This demonization of the other side is absolutely killing the public discourse in this country, and it's got to stop.

Ok, I have to admit, you and I have been on the same side of an arguement several times. Maybe I used the term "you" incorrectly as I meant it as a generalization. But you have to admit, allot of people wouldn't be happy either way. And no, you specifically haven't called me/us evil, but, as it's been thrown around quite a bit in regards to us being "goosestepping" "racist", etc. I just start to refer to myself that way as a form of sarcastic self deprication.

And, you are actually one of the few people I actually enjoy debating with. But, I do feel you wouldn't be happy if he did just ignore her and did his thing his wa...until the truth came out later, and then you would probably come around.

I didn't mean to come across in an offensive manner with you, I'm just frustrated with all the blaming. I honestly think that this was just going to happen some day. I don't think you can plan for every single natural disaster. There was an article in wired recently about this here:
http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,68756,00.html

I just think that no matter how much money you throw at something, you can't always pervail the way we think we can.

Anyway, no offense meant to you!

Jeffrey Haas wrote:

DigitalCMH wrote:
Stop asking for the federal gov't to control more of our lives and you'll see less and less of the blame game.

Please, tell me how the government going into New Orleans immediately is them taking more control over our lives?  I would have welcomed them from day one in New Orleans and I guarentee every person in the affected areas would have felt the same.

DigitalCMH wrote:
Problem is, people like the blame game.  It's easier to blame someone else than to realize we screwed it up.

Who screwed up in this case? 

DigitalCMH wrote:
You want to change the Blame Game but really all you are doing is playing the same game by blaming conservatives.

I prefer to think of it as the "Holding Responsible The People Who Were In Charge" game, and that's everyone who took little to no action when it was needed, conservative and liberal.  PLEASE understand that my issue is not with the way the president handled this (his cabinet is as much to blame as he is),  but with the way that it was handled in general.  The fact that a Republican was in office when this occured is incidental.


You are 100% absolutely right.  I'm more sensitive to the conservative voice right now because of the part of the country I live in, but it most definitely comes from both sides.

Listen, Hillary Clinton screaming about the lack of response is more than likely politically motivated.  Me screaming about the lack of response is not.  All I'm saying (and ever have been saying) is that I want EVERYONE to acknowledge where the problems were and not to be afraid to admit that your party screwed this up.  Republicans and Democrats are both at fault here.  Let's fix this problem before this happens again...

"Please, tell me how..."  How do you expect to pay for the Government going in?  That is control...that is the most influential control...control of the purse strings.

I asked before...I will ask again...WHAT specificly should he have done different?  Specificly!  Don't say he should have gone in there sooner.  Sooner with what and who?  Don't say he should have had troops ready.  Ready where?  Can you predict the path of a hurricane? 

What I see these days more and more is just a general misunderstanding of what mother nature can do to us.  You can not and will not EVER be able to prepare for what she throws at you.

If you are waiting for the government to provide/take care of you...you will ALWAYS be disapointed.


(this is not directed at anyone in particular)
With all the "difficult" questions...when is someone going to ask...what about GWB's response or lack of, that makes people want to murder and rape?

  There is no amount of desperation that makes it ok to rape and kill a three year old girl.  Or murder a policeman.  Or shoot at rescue workers.  No amount of fatigue or hunger justifies gang violence.

What political party has been promising african-americans for more than 40 years that their way is the way to equality? 

When is someone going to say that the only way you can achieve equality is by demanding to be treated equally?  No entitlements.  No special social programs are going to make you equal.  It is a band-aid. 

When is someone going to have the balls to say..."you should have found a way"?

If you have a child and you did not leave the storm...you failed at your parental duties.  Hurricanes happen every year.  They never SNEAK UP on you.  Where is your pillow case of $.49 can goods from the Dollar General?

You want difficult questions...I got 'em.  Those yellow school buses flooded to the roof that we have seen on TV and in stills, why did the mayor not use those to bus out the poor ahead of the storm? 

Why didn't the state of LA or the city of NO have an indigent registar so they could pick up those not able to move themselves? 

If the levees are soooo important, why did state and local taxes not pay for the levees if the Feds failed to?(repairs or improvements) 

How many people were raped in Miss or Alabama or rural LA? 

How many were murdered? 

There are black people in Miss and AL and LA, they did not murder or rape anyone.  They did not get aid any sooner than NO got aid.  It was slow everywhere.  (some areas did, just as some areas in NO got aid right away)

You want to see who is responsible...try this list!

GOD
     You
          Your Family
               Your Friends
                    Your local government
                         Your state government
                              Your federal government
                                   The President of the United States, Congress, Your Rep/Senator

I have yet to see anyone go through this list...they just jump to the GOVERNMENT!  If you are waiting for the government to take care of you...you will always be disapointed!

Joe K. Perez wrote:
I'm not for more State independence and I'm all for the system of having States beg for the money back. Why? It's to keep the politicians at the State level from abusing Federal funds for personal wealth and gain.

We had a California Governor at one time who used to get $35,000 pay raises every year. Every year! What made it possible? Possibly Federal funding?

Just like Congress votes itself pay raises, and handles the purse strings for the Fed, I think the question of a Governor's wages is totally handled by the State Legislature of each State. The Governor sure can't vote himself a pay raise because he doesn't handle the purse strings. Maybe he can get Jimmy "the fish" or Tony "the neck" to go talk to the holders of the purse strings though LOL

Also, I don't believe the Fed can give money to an individual of a State government; they can give money to "programs" though and often do, thus buying political influence using taxpayer money. (no where did I accuse any party). There are very strict laws for both State and Federal employees and elected officials about what sort of "gifts" they can received and what must be reported (remember the McCain-Fingold debate?

I respectfully disagree with you joe, I'd like to see the Fed have LESS power and control and stay out of State business unless it's really needed (and yes, in Katrina's case, they are needed.)

I do think there is a lot that individuals don't know about how our government is set up, why it's set up this way or what the general chain-of-command is in local, state and federal governments. I mention the chain-of-command because that is also the chain-of-responsibility as well. We have come to just expect the Fed is premier authority in government, but it's not true.  The Constituion severly limits the Fed in what it can do and can NOT do.  Think about this, the seat of government is in the District of Columbia which is NOT a State. As I recall it was created under Maritime Authority, but the point is - it can NOT be a State because one state can not "rule" over another. The Consitution gives each State supreme and equal authority. This may make you laugh; but the Fed is here to DO the bidding of the States, not the other way around.  At least that's the plan.

I admit I don't know enough to discuss this with any authority.  This is just my understanding of how it works for Civics 101.

The State has more power than the Fed - it's just that the Fed takes more of our money.

DreamPretty? wrote:
All of a sudden conservatives have this profound respect for "mother nature" lol

Actually, we have always had it.  You just don't understand true conservatism.  But, that is ok.  Most republicans don't understand what it means to be a conservative either.

Jeffrey Haas wrote:
I'm starting to realize that the term "The Blame Game" is a code phrase within the conservative movement which means "The administration screwed up, but if we can shame the other side enough it might buy us some time to set things straight and earn brownie points to use as ammunition later."  It's used in a sentence like "The liberals need to stop playing the 'Blame Game' until we rescue everyone and get the city back to where it was before the hurricane".  Wrong - Now is exactly the time to figure out what went wrong and correct the situation before the next emergency falls on our country.  We're right in the middle of hurricane season and this has GOT to be fixed before we find ourselves in the same situation.

Using this for political gain on either side is wrong, but changes have got to be made and now.

The bottom line, if this had been a Kerry or Clinton presidency the right wing in this country would have started the impeachment process already.

People, write down these quotes from the right (include the date, the context and the circumstances) and be sure to use it as ammunition to expose their hypocrisy when the next Democrat is elected president.

Wrong...  But don't take my words for it...  Read what FEMA themslelvs had to say...  Then compare it to how FEAM themselves acted...  No blaming here - just their own words....  Hmmm..  Amazing what you can come up with when you go to the source...

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm

bencook2 wrote:
"Please, tell me how..."  How do you expect to pay for the Government going in?  That is control...that is the most influential control...control of the purse strings.

You're not seriously putting a price tag on the heads of the people that could have been saved had we gone in sooner, are you?  An estimated 10,000+ Americans are dead, many of whom could have been saved if the intervention had taken place sooner, and your question is "How do you expect to pay for the Government going in?"  PLEASE tell me you're joking.

bencook2 wrote:
I asked before...I will ask again...WHAT specificly should he have done different?  Specificly!  Don't say he should have gone in there sooner.  Sooner with what and who?  Don't say he should have had troops ready.  Ready where?  Can you predict the path of a hurricane?

It took 5 days before New Orleans got any kind of federal response.  FIVE days.  Are you telling me that if we were invaded by a foreign nation we'd have to wait 5 days for a response?  You assemble the national guard from neighboring states.  You get FEMA down there and get them started managing the situation - procure supplies for the victims, organize the military and get them sent downtown to prevent the looters and maintain the order.  Get food, water and medicine to the people who are starving and dying in the city.  You start air dropping supplies and air lifting people out of there on a mass scale.  This could have start in less than 24 hours, period.

bencook2 wrote:
What I see these days more and more is just a general misunderstanding of what mother nature can do to us.  You can not and will not EVER be able to prepare for what she throws at you.

No, but you can manage the aftermath in a timely manner.  And as for a general misunderstanding of what mother nature can do to us, I'm pretty sure Katrina schooled us all real good.

bencook2 wrote:
If you are waiting for the government to provide/take care of you...you will ALWAYS be disapointed.

That's a pretty pesimistic attitude.  If that's the case, why have a federal government at all?  No, a well run government should be able to handle almost any crisis.  If not then disband FEMA all together.

bencook2 wrote:
(this is not directed at anyone in particular)
With all the "difficult" questions...when is someone going to ask...what about GWB's response or lack of, that makes people want to murder and rape?

There is no amount of desperation that makes it ok to rape and kill a three year old girl.  Or murder a policeman.  Or shoot at rescue workers.  No amount of fatigue or hunger justifies gang violence.

Hence the need for the military in there the second that Katrina passed to restore order.  The general population of New Orleans were raping and murdering.  The thugs that were responsible for this kind of behaviour beforethe hurricane were the same thugs that were doing it after, except this time they could do it with impunity since there was no one there to stop them.

bencook2 wrote:
What political party has been promising african-americans for more than 40 years that their way is the way to equality? 

When is someone going to say that the only way you can achieve equality is by demanding to be treated equally?  No entitlements.  No special social programs are going to make you equal.  It is a band-aid. 

When is someone going to have the balls to say..."you should have found a way"?

If you have a child and you did not leave the storm...you failed at your parental duties.  Hurricanes happen every year.  They never SNEAK UP on you.  Where is your pillow case of $.49 can goods from the Dollar General?

Absolutely - Why didn't the citizens of New Orleans just get in their Range Rovers, grab a couple cases of Evian from the garage and head on to their summer homes to escape the storm?  You don't know much about abject poverty, do you?  Let's do this.  I'll take your car, all of your money, food and water, your telephone and electricity, and then I'll give you two infants and an eighty year old grandmother in a wheelchair to take care of.  Then, I'll add 50,000 more people JUST like you in a community and say go.  Let's see how far you get.  Where are you going to go?  What are you going to do?   

bencook2 wrote:
You want difficult questions...I got 'em.  Those yellow school buses flooded to the roof that we have seen on TV and in stills, why did the mayor not use those to bus out the poor ahead of the storm? 

Why didn't the state of LA or the city of NO have an indigent registar so they could pick up those not able to move themselves?

Good luck on finding any supporters of the actions of the state of Louisiana to answer those questions.

bencook2 wrote:
If the levees are soooo important, why did state and local taxes not pay for the levees if the Feds failed to?(repairs or improvements)

Because the building of the Superdome was much more important.

bencook2 wrote:
They did not get aid any sooner than NO got aid.  It was slow everywhere.  (some areas did, just as some areas in NO got aid right away)

For the same reason it was slow in New Orleans.  The state governments just weren't equipped to handle a disaster of this magnitude, the EXACT reason why intervention by the federal government was SO critical, regardless of whether the states requested it or not.

bencook2 wrote:
You want to see who is responsible...try this list!

GOD
     You
          Your Family
               Your Friends
                    Your local government
                         Your state government
                              Your federal government
                                   The President of the United States, Congress, Your Rep/Senator

I have yet to see anyone go through this list...they just jump to the GOVERNMENT!  If you are waiting for the government to take care of you...you will always be disapointed!

Let's see, I'll run through this list real quick:

God - I'm not even going to comment
You - Sorry, my ass is on the roof
Your Family - They're up there as well
Your Friends - They're on their roofs

Wow, we just jumped straight to the government.

Your local government - Didn't respond fast enough
Your state government - Didn't respond fast enough
Your federal government - Didn't respond fast enough
The President of the United States, Congress, Your Rep/Senator - Didn't respond fast enough

So, I guess what your saying is "Hope you're not in a hurry - we'll try and get to you eventually"  Might want to keep that off the re-election bumper stickers...

The Art of CIP wrote:
Wrong...  But don't take my words for it...  Read what FEMA themslelvs had to say...  Then compare it to how FEAM themselves acted...  No blaming here - just their own words....  Hmmm..  Amazing what you can come up with when you go to the source...

http://www.fema.gov/library/speech_brown04082004.shtm

I'm confused where I'm wrong?  Nothing in that speech resembles any of their actions during this hurricane.  Did I miss something?

David Moyle wrote:
Anyway, no offense meant to you!

No offense is ever taken, my friend...

David Moyle wrote:
But, I do feel you wouldn't be happy if he did just ignore her and did his thing his wa...until the truth came out later, and then you would probably come around.

Are you kidding me?  I would have loved (this is not a Bush bash) after she requested the 24 hours to think about it for him to have said "You know what, you're too incompetant to run your great state.  We'll take it from here."

I've said this before and I'll say it again.  With what I know of the way the President and FEMA handled this, I'm VERY pissed off.  Now, after all is said and done, if it turns out that Bush and FEMA were on the ball and did everything right, I'll sing their praises to anyone who will listen.  Remember, I voted for him the first time so I do see good in him.

David Moyle wrote:
...but, as it's been thrown around quite a bit in regards to us being "goosestepping"...

Oh, now the goosestepping comment I do agree with...

Jeffrey Haas wrote:

bencook2 wrote:
"Please, tell me how..."  How do you expect to pay for the Government going in?  That is control...that is the most influential control...control of the purse strings.

You're not seriously putting a price tag on the heads of the people that could have been saved had we gone in sooner, are you?  An estimated 10,000+ Americans are dead, many of whom could have been saved if the intervention had taken place sooner, and your question is "How do you expect to pay for the Government going in?"  PLEASE tell me you're joking. *****NOPE, that is exactly what I am saying...not jokeing.  You're being a pollyanna.*****

bencook2 wrote:
I asked before...I will ask again...WHAT specificly should he have done different?  Specificly!  Don't say he should have gone in there sooner.  Sooner with what and who?  Don't say he should have had troops ready.  Ready where?  Can you predict the path of a hurricane?

It took 5 days before New Orleans got any kind of federal response.  FIVE days.  Are you telling me that if we were invaded by a foreign nation we'd have to wait 5 days for a response?  You assemble the national guard from neighboring states.  You get FEMA down there and get them started managing the situation - procure supplies for the victims, organize the military and get them sent downtown to prevent the looters and maintain the order.  Get food, water and medicine to the people who are starving and dying in the city.  You start air dropping supplies and air lifting people out of there on a mass scale.  This could have start in less than 24 hours, period. *******ANY federal response?  I have a few friends in the Coast Guard who may take exception to that.  As well, as the soldiers called up on day one out of my classes at USC*******

bencook2 wrote:
What I see these days more and more is just a general misunderstanding of what mother nature can do to us.  You can not and will not EVER be able to prepare for what she throws at you.

No, but you can manage the aftermath in a timely manner.  And as for a general misunderstanding of what mother nature can do to us, I'm pretty sure Katrina schooled us all real good.******Not all of us...some of us already knew.  Including some poor black people that got the hell out of NO like they were asked*****

bencook2 wrote:
If you are waiting for the government to provide/take care of you...you will ALWAYS be disapointed.

That's a pretty pesimistic attitude.  If that's the case, why have a federal government at all?  No, a well run government should be able to handle almost any crisis.  If not then disband FEMA all together. *****pesimistic/realistic*******

bencook2 wrote:
(this is not directed at anyone in particular)
With all the "difficult" questions...when is someone going to ask...what about GWB's response or lack of, that makes people want to murder and rape?

There is no amount of desperation that makes it ok to rape and kill a three year old girl.  Or murder a policeman.  Or shoot at rescue workers.  No amount of fatigue or hunger justifies gang violence.

Hence the need for the military in there the second that Katrina passed to restore order.  The general population of New Orleans were raping and murdering.  The thugs that were responsible for this kind of behaviour beforethe hurricane were the same thugs that were doing it after, except this time they could do it with impunity since there was no one there to stop them.*****when 9/11 happened, when all of the cops were at ground zero, what happened to the crime rate in NYC that week?******(hint: it did not go up)  PS...you missed the point.******

bencook2 wrote:
What political party has been promising african-americans for more than 40 years that their way is the way to equality? 

When is someone going to say that the only way you can achieve equality is by demanding to be treated equally?  No entitlements.  No special social programs are going to make you equal.  It is a band-aid. 

When is someone going to have the balls to say..."you should have found a way"?

If you have a child and you did not leave the storm...you failed at your parental duties.  Hurricanes happen every year.  They never SNEAK UP on you.  Where is your pillow case of $.49 can goods from the Dollar General?

****you just showed you true colors on this answer...  You tipped your hand!  You had to OVER state because you could not deny that $5 worth of dollar store groceries would have kept you during this ordeal.  But, instead you overstate in hopes people will look more at your Range Rover comment than at the content of your argument.  Being poor does not releave you of your responsibility to prepare.******
Absolutely - Why didn't the citizens of New Orleans just get in their Range Rovers, grab a couple cases of Evian from the garage and head on to their summer homes to escape the storm?  You don't know much about abject poverty, do you?  Let's do this.  I'll take your car, all of your money, food and water, your telephone and electricity, and then I'll give you two infants and an eighty year old grandmother in a wheelchair to take care of.*********If I have an 80 year old G'mother that can't take care of herself and I can't take proper care of her either...tell me again why I decided it was a good Idea to have two infant children?*********  Then, I'll add 50,000 more people JUST like you in a community and say go.  Let's see how far you get.  Where are you going to go?  What are you going to do?   

bencook2 wrote:
You want difficult questions...I got 'em.  Those yellow school buses flooded to the roof that we have seen on TV and in stills, why did the mayor not use those to bus out the poor ahead of the storm?  ****hey! we agree!****

Why didn't the state of LA or the city of NO have an indigent registar so they could pick up those not able to move themselves?

Good luck on finding any supporters of the actions of the state of Louisiana to answer those questions. ****that's two in a row*****

bencook2 wrote:
If the levees are soooo important, why did state and local taxes not pay for the levees if the Feds failed to?(repairs or improvements)

Because the building of the Superdome was much more important. ****that makes three!******

bencook2 wrote:
They did not get aid any sooner than NO got aid.  It was slow everywhere.  (some areas did, just as some areas in NO got aid right away)

For the same reason it was slow in New Orleans.  The state governments just weren't equipped to handle a disaster of this magnitude, the EXACT reason why intervention by the federal government was SO critical, regardless of whether the states requested it or not. *****that's four!******


Let's see, I'll run through this list real quick:

God - I'm not even going to comment ****nor would I****
You - Sorry, my ass is on the roof *****not if you left town*****
Your Family - They're up there as well*****not if they left town with you*****
Your Friends - They're on their roofs*****not if they left town*****

Wow, we just jumped straight to the government.

Your local government - Didn't respond fast enough ***no arguement***
Your state government - Didn't respond fast enough***no arguement***
Your federal government - Didn't respond fast enough***be specific, what shoud they have done?  How many should they have called up?  Where can they be close enough to respond but too close to become a casualty?  Be specific.*****
The President of the United States, Congress, Your Rep/Senator - Didn't respond fast enough****the prez responded before the Huricane hit...how much sooner do you think he should have responded?******

So, I guess what your saying is "Hope you're not in a hurry - we'll try and get to you eventually"  Might want to keep that off the re-election bumper stickers... *****I am pretty sure this is GW's last term*****

My answers are above in the *******answer******* astrisks.

bencook2 wrote:
NOPE, that is exactly what I am saying...not jokeing.  You're being a pollyanna.

What happened to you as a child? 

And I don't consider giving a crap about my fellow Americans being a pollyanna.  What happened to "Compasionate Conservative"?  Didn't you get the memo?

bencook2 wrote:
ANY federal response?  I have a few friends in the Coast Guard who may take exception to that.  As well, as the soldiers called up on day one out of my classes at USC

When did your classmates actually arrive in the affect area, and who called them up?  Every report I've heard states that FEMA and the President didn't go into New Orleans until Friday.  Does anyone else have any information on this?

bencook2 wrote:
When 9/11 happened, when all of the cops were at ground zero, what happened to the crime rate in NYC that week? (hint: it did not go up)  PS...you missed the point.

Apples and Oranges.  New York City wasn't evacuated - New Orleans was.  New York City didn't lose power/phone/water - New Orleans did.  New York City still maintained a police presence, even with many of the police concentrated in lower Manhattan - New Orleans didn't.

bencook2 wrote:
You just showed you true colors on this answer...  You tipped your hand!  You had to OVER state because you could not deny that $5 worth of dollar store groceries would have kept you during this ordeal.  But, instead you overstate in hopes people will look more at your Range Rover comment than at the content of your argument.  Being poor does not releave you of your responsibility to prepare.

Actually, my comment was directed at your premise that everyone in New Orleans should have evacuated, not to the looting situation.  Nice try though. 

Your premise is, if you didn't evacuate you deserved what you got.  My response is that many couldn't.  I guess too bad for them, right?

But since we're on it, exactly how far do you think $5 goes?  They've been without food and water for over a week now.

bencook2 wrote:
If I have an 80 year old G'mother that can't take care of herself and I can't take proper care of her either...tell me again why I decided it was a good Idea to have two infant children?

Seriously, what happened to you as a child?

bencook2 wrote:
You want difficult questions...I got 'em.  Those yellow school buses flooded to the roof that we have seen on TV and in stills, why did the mayor not use those to bus out the poor ahead of the storm?  ****hey! we agree!****

Absolutely...

bencook2 wrote:
That's two in a row / That makes three! / That's four!

You seem so surprised!

bencook2 wrote:
...not if you left town...

So you're telling me that you honestly don't see any kind of situation in which it just wasn't possible to leave New Orleans?  Seriously?  (I still think you're putting me on)

bencook2 wrote:
...be specific, what shoud they have done?  How many should they have called up?  Where can they be close enough to respond but too close to become a casualty?  Be specific.

Talk about tipping your hand - You contend that everyone should have evacuated New Orleans, right?  So, they should have left, but the military needed to stay clear because they didn't know which way the storm was going and they might incure casualties.  Interesting.

The storm had cleared New Orleans by Tuesday.  Why weren't they in the city that day?  Call up all the National Guard and FEMA, and set up base in east Texas/west Louisiana.  When the storm cleared, they'd be in the city the same day.  What would they have done?  Patrolled the city, kept order in the Superdome, passed out food and water as it arrived, etc, etc, etc.  Basically the same exact thing that they're doing now.   

bencook2 wrote:
The prez responded before the Huricane hit...how much sooner do you think he should have responded?

The president declared a state of emergency before the storm hit.  It was not until later in the week that the bulk of the support arrived.

bencook2 wrote:
I am pretty sure this is GW's last term

I wasn't talking about Bush.  I'm eager to see the results from the state and local elections in New Orleans.

Jeffrey Haas wrote:
Are you kidding me?  I would have loved (this is not a Bush bash) after she requested the 24 hours to think about it for him to have said "You know what, you're too incompetant to run your great state.  We'll take it from here."

Ok, and this is why I think there was a reason why he didn't. I mean, anyone who doesn't like him will say he has a "cowboy" attitude of doing what he determines needs to be done, no matter who disapproves. He has a "reputation" with "Bush Haters" of "not caring what the rest of the world thinks", going against the UN if he thinks it's best for the country, so if he didn't do it here, I would think there must be a reason. And, I'll bet it will come out.

David Moyle wrote:
Ok, and this is why I think there was a reason why he didn't. I mean, anyone who doesn't like him will say he has a "cowboy" attitude of doing what he determines needs to be done, no matter who disapproves. He has a "reputation" with "Bush Haters" of "not caring what the rest of the world thinks", going against the UN if he thinks it's best for the country, so if he didn't do it here, I would think there must be a reason. And, I'll bet it will come out.

President Bush doesn't strike me as a man who particularly cares what his detractors think.  He does what he thinks should be done, politics and polls be damned, and I've always thought this was his greatest strength and his biggest weakness.

Love him or hate him, you've got to admit the man has balls.  I remember when I first heard that Halliburtan (the company that the vice president once headed) was getting the no-bid contract for Iraq.  I was FLOORED by this, not because I necessarily found anything wrong with it (I assumed it was given to them for the right reasons) but because it was politically a horrible move.  My first thought was "Man, this guy has balls."

Bottom line - Bush haters are going to hate him no matter what he does.  He doesn't go in soon enough, they hate him.  He goes in too quickly, they hate him.  It actually gives him a lot of freedom.

See?  I can be nice...

bencook2 wrote:
NOPE, that is exactly what I am saying...not jokeing.  You're being a pollyanna.

What happened to you as a child?  ****I learned personal responsibility, many of us did not.  Some of us learned to rely on the Government*******

And I don't consider giving a crap about my fellow Americans being a pollyanna.  What happened to "Compasionate Conservative"?  Didn't you get the memo?****giving a crap makes you a good person, assuming all 50,000 people that did not evacuate were unable to....makes you a pollyanna!*****

bencook2 wrote:
ANY federal response?  I have a few friends in the Coast Guard who may take exception to that.  As well, as the soldiers called up on day one out of my classes at USC

When did your classmates actually arrive in the affect area, and who called them up?  Every report I've heard states that FEMA and the President didn't go into New Orleans until Friday.  Does anyone else have any information on this?****I got some info for you...FEMA went in on day one (coast guard).*****

bencook2 wrote:
When 9/11 happened, when all of the cops were at ground zero, what happened to the crime rate in NYC that week? (hint: it did not go up)  PS...you missed the point.

Apples and Oranges.  New York City wasn't evacuated - New Orleans was.  New York City didn't lose power/phone/water - New Orleans did.  New York City still maintained a police presence, even with many of the police concentrated in lower Manhattan - New Orleans didn't.*****Here try this on!  SOOO many people on this board need to learn what I am about to do!!!!!!!!  You are RIGHT!  You got me.  That was a very weak arguement on my part.  It is apples and oranges.  Good call on your part.********

bencook2 wrote:
You just showed you true colors on this answer...  You tipped your hand!  You had to OVER state because you could not deny that $5 worth of dollar store groceries would have kept you during this ordeal.  But, instead you overstate in hopes people will look more at your Range Rover comment than at the content of your argument.  Being poor does not releave you of your responsibility to prepare.

Actually, my comment was directed at your premise that everyone in New Orleans should have evacuated, not to the looting situation.  Nice try though.  ****I was not talking about looting and I NEVER said EVERYONE.  I am talking about basic preparedness and personal responsibility!******

Your premise is, if you didn't evacuate you deserved what you got.  My response is that many couldn't.  I guess too bad for them, right? ***my premise, which you still don't get...is that many more could have evacuated.  Many, many more!  This reliance on the Federal Gov. is epidemic.  You know what else would have got those poor people out quicker?  If there was less of them!  If 10,000 who could have left early did so, that is 10,000 we could have got to quicker that really did need our aid!***

But since we're on it, exactly how far do you think $5 goes?  They've been without food and water for over a week now.*****  I lived in las vegas on $10 a week for two weeks when I first moved there until I found a job.  I eat good.  It is personal responsibility!  I am not saying that $5 is going to make you comfortable.  I am saying generic spagetti-O's taste better than NOTHING.  If you decided to stick around for the storm...you need to have a huricane kit.  SURELY you are not suggesting other wise?  NO one is so poor that it releaves them of their personal responsibility.  The federal government should not be an insurance policy against stupidity!*****

bencook2 wrote:
If I have an 80 year old G'mother that can't take care of herself and I can't take proper care of her either...tell me again why I decided it was a good Idea to have two infant children?

Seriously, what happened to you as a child?  ****I learned that if I can't feed and care for two mouths...don't add two more!!!!!!***** 

bencook2 wrote:
You want difficult questions...I got 'em.  Those yellow school buses flooded to the roof that we have seen on TV and in stills, why did the mayor not use those to bus out the poor ahead of the storm?  ****hey! we agree!****

Absolutely...

bencook2 wrote:
That's two in a row / That makes three! / That's four!

You seem so surprised!

bencook2 wrote:
...not if you left town...

So you're telling me that you honestly don't see any kind of situation in which it just wasn't possible to leave New Orleans?  Seriously?  (I still think you're putting me on)****NO I absolutely see many situations where leaving town was imposible or difficult!  What I do NOT see is 50,000 situations where leaving town was imposible or dificult.  I saw a lot of able bodied people who are capable of having a huricane plan that includes food for 48 hours (standard).  Instead of starving for four or five days you are hungry for two or three.  These people disrespected mother nature and she kicked their ass.  Just like she does everytime we start to forget how powerful she is.*******  ****PS it is ridiculas that those people where still in NO after 5 days.  Even I think that the response should have, could have come sooner!  Inspite of being shot at.*****

bencook2 wrote:
...be specific, what shoud they have done?  How many should they have called up?  Where can they be close enough to respond but too close to become a casualty?  Be specific.

Talk about tipping your hand - You contend that everyone should have evacuated New Orleans, right? ***when did I say everyone*** So, they should have left, but the military needed to stay clear because they didn't know which way the storm was going and they might incure casualties.  Interesting.  ****exactly, what good does it do for the relief supplys to be distroyed by the hurricane?*****

The storm had cleared New Orleans by Tuesday.  Why weren't they in the city that day?  Call up all the National Guard and FEMA, and set up base in east Texas/west Louisiana.  When the storm cleared, they'd be in the city the same day.  What would they have done?  Patrolled the city, kept order in the Superdome, passed out food and water as it arrived, etc, etc, etc.  Basically the same exact thing that they're doing now.   *****again, that is just a basic misunderstanding of hurricanes on your part.  Pass out food and water as it came huh... Pass out food and water to 35,000 of the 40,000 people at the superdome and see what happens!  You feed all or none.  They were raping and murdering at the superdome, now you want food riots.*****

bencook2 wrote:
The prez responded before the Huricane hit...how much sooner do you think he should have responded?

The president declared a state of emergency before the storm hit.  It was not until later in the week that the bulk of the support arrived.****???? did airforce 1 fly it in?????  I am missing the conection*****

bencook2 wrote:
I am pretty sure this is GW's last term

I wasn't talking about Bush.  I'm eager to see the results from the state and local elections in New Orleans. ***** I don't think they have elected a republican in New Orleans in a while.  That may be part of the problem.*****

I don't know how to parse out the quotes!!!!

bencook2 wrote:
I learned personal responsibility, many of us did not.  Some of us learned to rely on the Government...giving a crap makes you a good person, assuming all 50,000 people that did not evacuate were unable to....makes you a pollyanna!

I think we've BOTH misunderstood each other.  You are 100% correct - Many (I'm going to even go as far as saying most) of the people who did NOT evacuate could have.  I think where you and I differ is that I don't think that the reason for not evacuating was a reliance on the federal government.  Year after year after year, New Orleans gets hurricane warnings, and they've never had anything like this.  I think the people who didn't evacuate can be broken down into 3 categories: 1) Those who were financially or physically unable to evacuate, 2) those who disregarded the evacuation because it of complacency, and 3) those who saw an evacuated New Orleans as a mayhem paradise.

bencook2 wrote:
I got some info for you...FEMA went in on day one (coast guard).

Not in force they didn't.  They weren't allowed to, and this falls on the shoulders of the local and state government of Louisiana.  In hindsight, President Bush should have gone in from day one and taken over the situation, but hindsight is 20/20.

bencook2 wrote:
Here try this on!  SOOO many people on this board need to learn what I am about to do!!!!!!!!  You are RIGHT!  You got me.  That was a very weak arguement on my part.  It is apples and oranges.  Good call on your part.

WOOHOO!  I win one!

bencook2 wrote:
I was not talking about looting and I NEVER said EVERYONE.  I am talking about basic preparedness and personal responsibility...my premise, which you still don't get...is that many more could have evacuated.  Many, many more!  This reliance on the Federal Gov. is epidemic.  You know what else would have got those poor people out quicker?  If there was less of them!  If 10,000 who could have left early did so, that is 10,000 we could have got to quicker that really did need our aid!

I do understand that many stayed of their own free will.  I don't think, however, that they stayed because they were just waiting for the government to fix their problem.  In fact, I'd say that very few of them felt that. 

"Hurricanes come through here every year and nothing ever happens"
"I'm not leaving my property for people to loot"
"I can't leave my pets"

I think these are more the types of arguments that were made for not leaving.  Reliance on the government probably didn't go through most of their minds.

bencook2 wrote:
when did I say everyone...exactly, what good does it do for the relief supplys to be distroyed by the hurricane?

I never said that the relief should come during the hurricane.  What I did say is that the relief shouldn't have taken 5 days.  Believe it or not, this is not a Bush bash.  This is actually a position I've lightened up on in the last several days. 

I was originally pissed off at Bush - Why wait 5 days before you do anything?!?  Now, after reading a lot of posts and news articles, I'm more sad than anything.  I'm now of the opinion that Bush should have figured out how incompetent the Louisiana goverment was and taken over the situation from the start.  This is, of course, completely hindsight.

bencook2 wrote:
again, that is just a basic misunderstanding of hurricanes on your part.  Pass out food and water as it came huh... Pass out food and water to 35,000 of the 40,000 people at the superdome and see what happens!  You feed all or none.  They were raping and murdering at the superdome, now you want food riots.

Believe it or not, I'm not 5 years old.  I understand what desperation does to people, and I understand the devistation of hurricanes, both physically and psychologically.  I was in Hong Kong when a T-10 typhoon (a category 5 hurricane equivelant) hit the island dead on.  I know what it does and I know the aftermath.

Of course, what you refuse to acknowledge is that if the National Guard and the other branches of the military had been in New Orleans in force from the day the storm passed through, there would have been order at the Superdome.  There wouldn't have been looting in the streets.  There wouldn't have been the rapes, stabbings and murders that occured.  Lawlessness on this scale comes from a complete lack of officers and military to keep the peace.  True or false?  You keep running back to the rapes and murders and looting, only to prove my point that the military should have been in there earlier.  Thanks for the help...

bencook2 wrote:
I don't think they have elected a republican in New Orleans in a while.  That may be part of the problem.

The mayor was actually a Republican, and then days before filing for the New Orleans mayoral race his switched to Democrat. 

The governor is indeed Democrat.

This isn't a political issue, though.  This is one of incompetance, and both the Mayor and the Governor need to be gone.

Graeme Rand wrote:
I read with avid interest the opinions so profoundly expressed regarding who is responsible and who should have done what and when? Some general understanding of the region is required to understand the evacuation plans, it is not just Orleans Parish it is all of the parishes and the lower parishes must evacuate first. If the mayor jumps the gun ahead of a parish President then the evacuation of the low lying areas is hampered. They have a joint agreed evacuation plan to which they try to adhere. I also note the desire to point fingers and assign blame , did officials blunder yes but do remember they blundered in the dark with no communications. It is to me blatantly obvious that to stand on protocol when faced with impending doom is beaurocracy gone wild , quite simply when the magnitude of the event became apparent our federal government should have stepped in immediately. Anything less is ludicrous.

Ya, but just so you know, based on my close-proximity to many officials in my city, I know for a fact that "responding immediately" still meand the individual should be prepaired to go it alone for 72 hours minimum...too many people...too few resources that can't be kept on hand "just in case" Just pure logistics of a big country with allot of people.

Jeffrey Haas wrote:

bencook2 wrote:
I learned personal responsibility, many of us did not.  Some of us learned to rely on the Government...giving a crap makes you a good person, assuming all 50,000 people that did not evacuate were unable to....makes you a pollyanna!

I think we've BOTH misunderstood each other.  You are 100% correct - Many (I'm going to even go as far as saying most) of the people who did NOT evacuate could have.  I think where you and I differ is that I don't think that the reason for not evacuating was a reliance on the federal government.  Year after year after year, New Orleans gets hurricane warnings, and they've never had anything like this.  I think the people who didn't evacuate can be broken down into 3 categories: 1) Those who were financially or physically unable to evacuate, 2) those who disregarded the evacuation because it of complacency, and 3) those who saw an evacuated New Orleans as a mayhem paradise.

bencook2 wrote:
I got some info for you...FEMA went in on day one (coast guard).

Not in force they didn't.  They weren't allowed to, and this falls on the shoulders of the local and state government of Louisiana.  In hindsight, President Bush should have gone in from day one and taken over the situation, but hindsight is 20/20.

bencook2 wrote:
Here try this on!  SOOO many people on this board need to learn what I am about to do!!!!!!!!  You are RIGHT!  You got me.  That was a very weak arguement on my part.  It is apples and oranges.  Good call on your part.

WOOHOO!  I win one!

bencook2 wrote:
I was not talking about looting and I NEVER said EVERYONE.  I am talking about basic preparedness and personal responsibility...my premise, which you still don't get...is that many more could have evacuated.  Many, many more!  This reliance on the Federal Gov. is epidemic.  You know what else would have got those poor people out quicker?  If there was less of them!  If 10,000 who could have left early did so, that is 10,000 we could have got to quicker that really did need our aid!

I do understand that many stayed of their own free will.  I don't think, however, that they stayed because they were just waiting for the government to fix their problem.  In fact, I'd say that very few of them felt that. 

"Hurricanes come through here every year and nothing ever happens"
"I'm not leaving my property for people to loot"
"I can't leave my pets"

I think these are more the types of arguments that were made for not leaving.  Reliance on the government probably didn't go through most of their minds.

bencook2 wrote:
when did I say everyone...exactly, what good does it do for the relief supplys to be distroyed by the hurricane?

I never said that the relief should come during the hurricane.  What I did say is that the relief shouldn't have taken 5 days.  Believe it or not, this is not a Bush bash.  This is actually a position I've lightened up on in the last several days. 

I was originally pissed off at Bush - Why wait 5 days before you do anything?!?  Now, after reading a lot of posts and news articles, I'm more sad than anything.  I'm now of the opinion that Bush should have figured out how incompetent the Louisiana goverment was and taken over the situation from the start.  This is, of course, completely hindsight.

bencook2 wrote:
again, that is just a basic misunderstanding of hurricanes on your part.  Pass out food and water as it came huh... Pass out food and water to 35,000 of the 40,000 people at the superdome and see what happens!  You feed all or none.  They were raping and murdering at the superdome, now you want food riots.

Believe it or not, I'm not 5 years old.  I understand what desperation does to people, and I understand the devistation of hurricanes, both physically and psychologically.  I was in Hong Kong when a T-10 typhoon (a category 5 hurricane equivelant) hit the island dead on.  I know what it does and I know the aftermath.

Of course, what you refuse to acknowledge is that if the National Guard and the other branches of the military had been in New Orleans in force from the day the storm passed through, there would have been order at the Superdome.  There wouldn't have been looting in the streets.  There wouldn't have been the rapes, stabbings and murders that occured.  Lawlessness on this scale comes from a complete lack of officers and military to keep the peace.  True or false?  You keep running back to the rapes and murders and looting, only to prove my point that the military should have been in there earlier.  Thanks for the help...


The mayor was actually a Republican, and then days before filing for the New Orleans mayoral race his switched to Democrat. 

The governor is indeed Democrat.

This isn't a political issue, though.  This is one of incompetance, and both the Mayor and the Governor need to be gone.

Sounds like me and you are not as far apart as first we thought!  AND, I know you are not five years old...not a day over 10 though! jk.

Any who, I am just thrilled to death that the media is finally saddeling some of the responsibility on the Mayor and the GOV.  Looks like the Gov. of LA may be job hunting soon.  As far as my and your discussion...Personal responsibility to evacuate when asked OR a 48-72 hour hurricane kit and me and you are talking college football instead of who did what to whom.

KM von Seidl wrote:
Barbara Bush weighs in on the relief effort at the Houston Astrodome:


http://movies.crooksandliars.com/bb.mp3

sound bites are often used by those who can muster a sound arguement...

PS...I don't think that is her anyway.

bencook2 wrote:

sound bites are often used by those who can muster a sound arguement...

PS...I don't think that is her anyway.

http://www.boston.com/news/weather/arti … servation/

Mrs. Bush remarks were 'observation'

September 8, 2005

WASHINGTON

Barbara Bush was making ''a personal observation" when she said poor people at a relocation center in Houston were faring better than before Hurricane Katrina struck, President Bush's spokesman said yesterday. White House press secretary Scott McClellan did not answer directly when asked whether the president agreed with his mother's remarks. Mrs. Bush, after touring the Astrodome complex in Houston on Monday, said: ''What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them." She commented during a radio interview with the American Public Media program ''Marketplace."

Jeffrey Haas wrote:
Of course, what you refuse to acknowledge is that if the National Guard and the other branches of the military had been in New Orleans in force from the day the storm passed through, there would have been order at the Superdome.  There wouldn't have been looting in the streets.  There wouldn't have been the rapes, stabbings and murders that occured.  Lawlessness on this scale comes from a complete lack of officers and military to keep the peace.  True or false?  You keep running back to the rapes and murders and looting, only to prove my point that the military should have been in there earlier.  Thanks for the help...

No kidding!

Another weird paradox is how come the officials couldn't have known that a category 5 hurricane would hit and the levees would be breached, but the poor people down there who are trying to decide to go to work or leave town, how come they were supposed to know? I hear people saying that a lot, that somehow individuals are to blame, when we all know it's the system that failed (again). Anyone ever waited in line at the DMV?

DreamPretty? wrote:

No kidding!

Another weird paradox is how come the officials couldn't have known that a category 5 hurricane would hit and the levees would be breached, but the poor people down there who are trying to decide to go to work or leave town, how come they were supposed to know? I hear people saying that a lot, that somehow individuals are to blame, when we all know it's the system that failed (again). Anyone ever waited in line at the DMV?

The system failed horribly. And as more facts come out, it will become apparent to people where it failed, what needs to be fixed, who to blame and in my opinion, who should be charged with criminal neglect in their failure to discharge the duties of their elected office.  And let the chips fall where they may, from the President on down.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007219

KM von Seidl wrote:
http://www.boston.com/news/weather/articles/2005/09/08/mrs_bush_remarks_were_observation/

Mrs. Bush remarks were 'observation'

September 8, 2005

WASHINGTON

Barbara Bush was making ''a personal observation" when she said poor people at a relocation center in Houston were faring better than before Hurricane Katrina struck, President Bush's spokesman said yesterday. White House press secretary Scott McClellan did not answer directly when asked whether the president agreed with his mother's remarks. Mrs. Bush, after touring the Astrodome complex in Houston on Monday, said: ''What I'm hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas. Everyone is so overwhelmed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this is working very well for them." She commented during a radio interview with the American Public Media program ''Marketplace."

Sorry!  I was thinking about the First lady.  I did not read your post carefully enough!  I was wrong!  wrong!  wrong!  wrong! wrong!

BUT...you proved my point with the sound bite though...It completely changes the meaning of the sound bite when you add the context from the Boston link....

bencook2 wrote:
Sounds like me and you are not as far apart as first we thought!

No!  That's not true!  Debating with you is just too much fun!  We're light years apart!  Yeah!  It's all Bush's fault!  PLEASE don't take this away from me!

bencook2 wrote:
As far as my and your discussion...Personal responsibility to evacuate when asked OR a 48-72 hour hurricane kit and me and you are talking college football instead of who did what to whom.

Go Vols! (Oh, now THAT'S gonna start a fight...)

Jeffrey Haas wrote:

Go Vols! (Oh, now THAT'S gonna start a fight...)

Just to be on topic...BUSH IS A DOODIE HEAD

Now, to college football!  You better look out for ole Spurrier her in SC.  IF (and it's a big if) we get our sh!t together we may have a slim to none chance this year of not losing by more than a touch down....or two.