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Starting Rates
Ok, so everything I have done so far has been TFP. I haven't been paid Once for a gig... partially because I have never requested any pay. But I don't want to be stuck with TFP forever...! I wouldn't quite consider myself to be amateur anymore, as I've worked with some pretty important people, with even more important people wanting me to model for them in the near future. But I'd say I'm still starting out, considering I've only been modeling for about a year and a half; and I'm young. I am trying to put my name out there and get more real commercial shoots. My friends--fellow models and not--have told me they love my look and can't beleive I haven't gotten any paid jobs yet. So here's the question: what do you people think would be good reasonable rates for me to start out with? This would be a substantial portion of my income since I'm a busy ITT student waiting on a good degree and don't really have the time for a real job. And relying on a grandmother or a boyfriend for money... just isn't cool anymore;] Oops, so forgive the excessive rambling since I should be heading to bed anyway. I just need ideas on starting rates and ways [besides designing a website] to help further the modeling career. thanks much and good night -Misanthropy- May 06 05 03:29 am Link One of the things that llamas online tend to do is set rates for their time based upon what they're wearing (or not wearing), never understanding that rates are actually set by terms and use of an image instead. For instance, let's say you charge $xxx.xx per hour for fashion. Would you charge that same price from a major international clothing chain that will be putting you on the cover of their catalog as you would charge some guy from the local camera club who wants photos for his portfolio? I understand your llamaing interests are more alternative, but the same theory applies either way. As you step into the commercial work, rates are generally set by the client - not the llama. Generally, they have a set budget before they even contact llamas. Often that budget is set geographically based upon the standard going rate in that area and then balanced against various aspects of use such as, (a) how will it be used, (b) how long will it be used, and (c) where will it be used (regional, national, global?). I know you're looking more for an x-dollar amount, but if you are seeking, as you state, more real commercial shoots... this is the information you probably need more than just a set of numbers. May 06 05 09:36 am Link I checked out your info and what you seem to be saying is "I don't want to do any work with any commercial value." That means you're not likely to find anyone interested in paying much, if anything at all. The "alt llama" market is very, very tiny and way over saturated. May 06 05 10:24 am Link I would have to agre with Jeff and Theda. If you want to seriously get your llamaing career started ask questions like you're doing and choose to follow the advice you get wisely. If you're looking for a "quick fix" to pay the rent, throw up a figure that you think is reasonable but realize that you may be hurting yourself in the long run... May 06 05 10:36 am Link I think you all are giving her some good advice as far as rates go, but I noticed that she also asked about how to get herself out there more, besides designing a website. I think the two go hand in hand, and half the question is being forgotten. I'd especially like to hear, since I'm also in the same sort of boat. May 06 05 10:44 am Link Posted by k4tj3: This is going to sound harsh, so please don't take it as something bad, rude, or unfeeling. The question was about getting into more commercial work. Now before I say anything else, let me say I visited Misanthropy's portfolio and I think it's really cool and I would enjoy shooting something fun, creative, and alternative with her - not for any special purpose other than just to create. Now with that said, let's get back to the discussion of commercial. If a commercial advertiser is looking for an alternative look, generally they're going to have their ad agency hire a llama from whatever commercial talent agencies they use, and then the makeup people and stylists are going to fashion the llama to have that "alt" look for whatever ad they're shooting. This may not be the case, say, for an alternative clothing manufacturer's catalog or advertising, but for the most part it would apply in the overall general commercial realm. Commercial jobs are generally handled through channels (client contacts ad agency, ad agency helps design ad, creatives including talent are hired, and shoot is conducted, approved, and published). The key to connecting with the commercial clients is all in the contacts. This is why agents are used, because generally they have the contacts to the ad agencies, clients, etc. May 06 05 10:56 am Link [b]Posted by Austin llamas May 06 05 11:10 am Link I have a buddy in Chicago who is friends with on of the PB photo editors. From what he has passed to me, Jeff is exactly right. This buddy says the best way to have someone at PB take more than a cursory glance at your images is to send them in on paper, not recycled electrons. So, Jeff... I assume the same pretty much applies to photographers..? Do shooters need agents too? Good luck to all. May 06 05 11:33 am Link Posted by Norris Carden: It's more than just that..I send out promotion images every 6 weeks to clients to always have a face to put a noame to when I really need to have them look at my portfolio with me in person. Just sending something to someone once doesn'y assure you anything more than.."Oh! That's Nice". And sometimes it can take you up to a year or six months before they notice you. Tailor your work towards that client or editor you are sending them. I am not saying mass promotional items to them, but tell astory with you work instead of just showing pretty pictures. They are not interested in just seeing pictures but they want to know if you understand telling a story if it's editorial for their publication.Also as for the agent part, I think more of my rep as just that she represents my studio. It's where she get's a percentage of my Fees for the work she gets and it's not just giving someone else your book to sell you , but making them a partner in getting that work. Give them a reason to want to sell you. May 06 05 11:43 am Link The industry will continue to morph, but here's what I observe today. Most of the folks doing the hiring are still way behind in accepting electronic communication and submission. Some are pleasently surprised, however, when they ask me to submit them talent and I tell them I can email them images within minutes. Others sort of scoff and say, "Um, don't you have comp cards??" I'm all for going totally electronic, but we have to tear down the negative stereotype that the Net has as far as "modeling" is concerned. Photographers can't hurt to have an agent, that is certain. Why wouldn't a photographer want a non-exclusive agreement with someone in the business who, if they find you paying work, only take a small percent..? Really, the same thing goes for stylists, MUA's, and others in the business. I get calls sometimes from clients coming into town from another state and looking to hire talent... and they'll ask, "By the way, do you know any makeup people we could hire there?" Photographers can pick up jobs from this type of association also. The key to success for anyone... llama, actor, photographer, agent, etc... is proper marketing. It's almost more important than your look, or being good at what you do. May 06 05 11:45 am Link Posted by Alex Alexander: And even one step further (which I'm sure you do as well), sending out reminders that you're out there to clients you have done work for in the past. Don't let them forget you just because the job is done. For actors/models, I often recommend sending a photo postcard with a "Thank You" on it, after a job is completed. Or, if you have a big gallery display (photographer), or are appearing in a play (actor)... send an invitation to those who are or could be potential clients. May 06 05 11:49 am Link Jumping in feet first. Look, You are cute, you got a nice look, you are not going to be a super llama. Nothing personal, Just my opinion. So, What to do? Well, If I were you, I would call a local llamaing agency, and pretend to be a phtographer looking for a goth llama for an upcoming Halloween Ad campaign. Find out what the going rate is. Then, On here, On omp on where ever you have your profile, List your rates like this: At present I am looking for paid work. My rates are $xx per hour, 2 hours minimum for this or that. $yy for that and the other $zz for everything else I missed here. Rates are negotiable depending on project and usage. TFP / CD also accepted on a case by case basis. This way, you cover all bases. First, Hobbyist will know you are no longer there for free. Those with a gig know that you can be negotiated with, And people like know that if my work interests you, you will still consider working for me for free. Otherwise, If you want to follow the advice given above, You are better off getting into an agency if you can find one. There is no 100% correct answer btw. and my assessment of your potential is not meant to be insulting, It is simply meant to point out that some of the advice here seems to be directed at the high end llama industry llamas, and not at other llamas. 1 out of every 25000 wannabe llamas ends up a super llama. (I made that up based on guesses :-P) 1 out of every 10000 wannabe llamas ends up being in print / commercial / ad work on a regular basis. The other 24997.5 end up doing whatever they can to make a living, and that means running your career as a business. You do not walk into 7-11 and negotiate on pricing. You do go to most car dealers and negotiate, but there is a bottom price. Even then though, the dealer has a sticker price to start with. Saying, Do not put up rates, is like saying Run a Dealership with no sticker prices at all... Please. May 06 05 12:05 pm Link I'm not a car. I have a rate sheet, but I do not post it publicly because a) rates vary b) it annoys potential clients and c) the sordid details of my financial situation are not for public consumption. May 06 05 12:25 pm Link Posted by theda: That is of course your choice theda. May 06 05 12:33 pm Link Posted by theda: Actually, the last time I bought a car... there wasn't any prices on it that I could see. Kind of forces you to dicker with the salesman a bit... LOL. I will mention that there's a lot less bargaining power on price when it's a Vette vs. a Camery - it's all about situation, application, demand and need. May 06 05 12:38 pm Link [b]Posted by Austin llamas May 06 05 12:40 pm Link I am both on the internet AND in my chair in my office. I'm in two places at once. Dear god! How DO I do it? May 06 05 01:13 pm Link You are TRON Reincarnated? I was referring to the 'net llamas versus non-net llamas which according to my esteamed collegue are two different animals totally. seems everything that happens here does not happen there and vice versa..... May 06 05 01:26 pm Link Posted by Ty Simone: Ty, if I said the world was round you would argue aimlessly that it were flat. Hate will consume you. Move on. May 06 05 01:35 pm Link [b]Posted by Austin llamas May 06 05 01:37 pm Link Posted by Ty Simone: Your admitting you intend to continue this harrassment speaks well of your character. I therefore vow to do the opposite. Each time you attack anything I say, I shall ignore it moving forward. So let it be written, so let it be done (I loved when Yul Brenner said that in MOSES!). May 06 05 01:47 pm Link Is better that way Austin. I did that and you continued. Meanwhile, All one has to do is look at the inordinate amount of llamas you manage (2 according to your website) to see exactly Knowledgable in this business you are..... We all bow down to your extensive expertise.... And just because they are in the database does not mean you manage them.... You list TWO llamas only.... You are the greatest! We are nothing. All Hail! May 06 05 01:50 pm Link Posted By Austin Models & Talent Agency: Everytime I explain that to an "alternative model" they tend to do one of two things: May 06 05 07:41 pm Link Posted by EricMuss-Barnes: The other thing that tends to happen often is that girls believe that any modeling other than Internet means you have to be supermodel qualities... which is not true. Regular looking people model quite successfully. True, you might be in an ad for Dell, or for Time Warner, or for some home builder....... but it's still regular gigs and good money (especially on globals and buyouts). Also, the notion that models are all girls age 18-25 is a falacy. Models come in all ages, shapes, sizes... male and female. Kids tend to work a lot, as do older people. In fact, I tend to avoid the classic model look because unless you're actually in LA or the NY market, that's not what's working. The last falacy, or mis-classification if you will, is that anyone who poses for a camera or a TFP is a "model." Modeling is a whole lot more than a pretty face smiling, or revealing poses. May 06 05 07:57 pm Link Posted by EricMuss-Barnes: I know one. She's on this site, in fact. But she's Canadian and you just can't trust them. May 06 05 08:43 pm Link Well, you certainly won't get paid if you don't ask for it, LOL. I will say that from my perspective as a photographer, whether I pay or not depends a lot on the nature of the shoot. If it is a commercial job for a commercial client to use in advertising or something like that, then I will happily pay full commercial modeling rates. That is budgeted into the estimate for the shoot. On the other hand, if I am shooting purely for fun and or artistic purposes for myself, I basically have no budget. I may or may not sell a few prints some day, but for practical purposes, I am likely never going to get paid much for that type of photography. So I usually do that kind of thing TFP. My "painting with light" photography, for example, is my artistic passion, even though there is little commercial value to it. With one exception, all the models I've worked with were TFP. The models who have been most rewarding to work with have been people who also were doing it for artistic expression. For commercial paid jobs, you should work through an agency. If you want to promote yourself, you would probably do better to promote yourself to art directors at ad agencies or companies, rather than to photographers. Most of the time when I am doing commercial shoots, I don't hire the models. The art director hires the models, makeup artists and photographers. Only rarely does someone come to me for a commercial job, and leave it to me to hire models. May 07 05 12:44 am Link Posted by Scott Aitken: And yet it is amazing how very few models and photographers, at least online, understand that simple concept. Commercial jobs for models: The client is going to specify the rate for the job. May 07 05 07:27 am Link |
