Photographer
Nasilele Photography
Posts: 56
Brooklyn, New York, US
When working with a model TFCD is there a minimum amount of images they should demand?
I am having a bad first TFCD shoot experience... I am used to paying customers who get a minimum 20 images to proof and order prints.
If there are other threads about this please lead me to them... Thanks in advance.
Photographer
Rob Domaschuk
Posts: 5715
Naperville, Illinois, US
It's usually spelled out in the contract/release (yes, I get a release for TFCD, too, since it also includes a statement about what they receive as well as their usage rights).
Photographer
Cynthia T
Posts: 213
Kolia, Alo, Wallis and Futuna
I have reasons for not giving out every image on CD but I hear that's pretty common. Give whatever is reasonable for you to get the model(s) you want.
In the non modeling world, photographic subjects typically get one or two prints. This may be appropriate for very inexperienced models or those who see it as purely as a hobby.
Photographer
Richard Tallent
Posts: 7136
Beaumont, Texas, US
There's no "standard" demand for TFCD.
If you are dealing with a n00b model, they may think that burning a CD immediately after the shoot is reasonable. But if you are dealing with models a little higher up the food chain, chances are they will only use 1-3 shots from the same shoot in their portfolio, and they only want the best ones.
I provide 5 for a half-day TFCD, which gives them plenty of choices but forces both of us to really pick the winners. I used to provide 5 per hour, but now I spend a lot more time working on each photo.
The most important thing is to have it written down and agreed upon before the shoot.
Photographer
Peter Jaena
Posts: 82
Its only fair that they get the whole bunch. It's TFCD, so I dont choose anymore. I just give the model everything. Then I photoshop the best ones, and burn in a separate CD to be given later.
Model
Lory
Posts: 3751
SYLMAR, California, US
as a model on the other side i kinda wonder about this too.... ive been given a cd with all the images, none edited and then edited ones later... ive been given a cd with selected images (mind you that was still about 150) none edited, ive been given a cd with only a handful of edited images.. so it depends on the photographer.
i prefer to receive all images asap, becuase i want to see the good, the good the bad and the ugly... so i can learn from bad posture and poor positions, ugly smiles ect... ( and i wanna see wanna see wanna see!!!!!) and i also prefer the photographer to pick the best ones because i see myself way differnently that the outside world.
i only hope for a handful of edited images at the end... that takes alot of time and i understand that. if i REALLY want a certain one edited i will offer to pay for that one image, or ask if i can have it ps by another person... so far i havent had any problems
remember, its a give and a take
Photographer
JaysonPolansky com
Posts: 816
Sedona, Arizona, US
I give them all the images.
Then I narrow the shots down from: the best shoots (any shot that didn't suck), then to my top ten favorite shots (it could be any number of outstanding images from 2 to 25).
I then do any editing to just these so called top ten images (if needed)
I ad my copyright
I reduce these images to internet size, and
I Email those finished images to the model, MUA and stylist.
I am not at all claiming this to be any standard. It is just what I do.
Photographer
Peter Jaena
Posts: 82
Lory wrote:
as a model on the other side i kinda wonder about this too.... ive been given a cd with all the images, none edited and then edited ones later... ive been given a cd with selected images (mind you that was still about 150) none edited, ive been given a cd with only a handful of edited images.. so it depends on the photographer.
i prefer to receive all images asap, becuase i want to see the good, the good the bad and the ugly... so i can learn from bad posture and poor positions, ugly smiles ect... ( and i wanna see wanna see wanna see!!!!!) and i also prefer the photographer to pick the best ones because i see myself way differnently that the outside world.
i only hope for a handful of edited images at the end... that takes alot of time and i understand that. if i REALLY want a certain one edited i will offer to pay for that one image, or ask if i can have it ps by another person... so far i havent had any problems
remember, its a give and a take Very well said. It's the models body, so he/she deserves every shot good or bad. Every photographer should burn the CD right after the shoot. I use DVD so it's 4.7gb max in 1 disc.
Photographer
BlackWatch
Posts: 3825
Cleveland, Ohio, US
Peter Jaena wrote:
Very well said. It's the models body, so he/she deserves every shot good or bad. Every photographer should burn the CD right after the shoot. I use DVD so it's 4.7gb max in 1 disc. It depends on what the advertised final product is. We do artistic pieces so we don't give out unedited images. We don't want the unedited ones flying around because just the picture that came out of the camera is not our art. We promise one picture per hour of shooting and we make it clear up front.
You can't generalize about what is fair and what is not in that way. What is fair is if two people make a deal ahead of time and both hold up their end of the bargain. That's what's fair.
Photographer
Peter Jaena
Posts: 82
BlackWatch wrote:
It depends on what the advertised final product is. We do artistic pieces so we don't give out unedited images. We don't want the unedited ones flying around because just the picture that came out of the camera is not our art. We promise one picture per hour of shooting and we make it clear up front.
You can't generalize about what is fair and what is not in that way. What is fair is if two people make a deal ahead of time and both hold up their end of the bargain. That's what's fair. This is TFCD we are talking about here. Meaning the model agreed to trade for CD. If you were to pick based on "artistic pieces", go pay the model what he/she deserves, and you dont need to give any image you dont want to give out. Again TFCD dude.
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
Peter Jaena wrote:
This is TFCD we are talking about here. Meaning the model agreed to trade for CD. If you were to pick based on "artistic pieces", go pay the model what he/she deserves, and you dont need to give any image you dont want to give out. Again TFCD dude. I have to disagree. When I enter in a TFCD with a model is an exchange for our talents. She gives me her time and modeling talent and I give her the best images that I am able to produce. For me that means going thru the images and selecting the winners. I let her select a few from the digital proofs and I select the rest. For me TFCD doesn't mean a 'fake shoot' where quality doesn't matter.
As someone said before if you are serious about modeling you wouldn't use more than 2-3 max from the same shoot in your portfolio anyway - the same goes for the photographer. A CD full of unedited images isn't a real benefit to anyone -- unless your objective is to just accumulate images and not really work towards building a quality body of work.
My TFCD terms are made clear to all models before the shoot and are spelled out on my release form that all models get to examine way before the shoot.
Photographer
Analog Nomad
Posts: 4097
Pattaya, Central, Thailand
There are photographers who give out just a few images -- there are photographers who give out all of them. There are models who will be satisfied with just a few, and there are models who will demand to see everything. Given this, it is important to discuss YOUR practice with the model before you shoot, so there is no misunderstanding and unnecessary conflict later. Regards, Paul Nasilele Photography wrote:
When working with a model TFCD is there a minimum amount of images they should demand?
I am having a bad first TFCD shoot experience... I am used to paying customers who get a minimum 20 images to proof and order prints.
If there are other threads about this please lead me to them... Thanks in advance.
Photographer
Papa Vic Photography
Posts: 8211
Glendale, Arizona, US
Lory wrote:
as a model on the other side i kinda wonder about this too.... ive been given a cd with all the images, none edited and then edited ones later... ive been given a cd with selected images (mind you that was still about 150) none edited, ive been given a cd with only a handful of edited images.. so it depends on the photographer.
i prefer to receive all images asap, becuase i want to see the good, the good the bad and the ugly... so i can learn from bad posture and poor positions, ugly smiles ect... ( and i wanna see wanna see wanna see!!!!!) and i also prefer the photographer to pick the best ones because i see myself way differnently that the outside world.
i only hope for a handful of edited images at the end... that takes alot of time and i understand that. if i REALLY want a certain one edited i will offer to pay for that one image, or ask if i can have it ps by another person... so far i havent had any problems
remember, its a give and a take entirely sensible, especially the last sentence
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
The only hard and fast rule of TFCD is that there are no hard and fast rules.
That being said, it's good to define a policy that's spelled out in the release such as typical number of images, image size and resolution, model participation in image selection, etc.
Photographer
M Pandolfo Photography
Posts: 12117
Tampa, Florida, US
Nasilele Photography wrote:
When working with a model TFCD is there a minimum amount of images they should demand? Umm...demand? I don't think any model (or photographer for that matter) should ever demand anything. It should be an agreement reached prior to the first click of the shutter.
Photographer
landart
Posts: 742
Blacksburg, Virginia, US
I give 10-30 edited images. NEVER the whole shoot, especially right after. If they have a problem with that, they can find someone else to shoot with.
Photographer
Thorn Hill Studios
Posts: 379
Springfield, Massachusetts, US
This has been an interesting and valuable discussion. As others have mentioned, it's about communicating expectations and preferences; it's a collaboration, yes?
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
Peter Jaena wrote:
This is TFCD we are talking about here. Meaning the model agreed to trade for CD. If you were to pick based on "artistic pieces", go pay the model what he/she deserves, and you dont need to give any image you dont want to give out. Again TFCD dude. No, you are wrong. This is TFCD - they get a CD of images. But it isn't TFCDWAI - Time For CD With All Images. Do you really want your worst work circulating out there? All photographers make "wasted frames" - it's just that the successful one's don't publicize theirs.
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER
Photographer
Meehan
Posts: 2463
Merrimack, New Hampshire, US
Only selected and edited images leave my desktop, for models and commercial clients alike! That's my workflow... people see what I want them to see!
Photographer
i c e c o l d
Posts: 8610
Fort Myers, Florida, US
Bryan Benoit wrote:
I have to disagree. When I enter in a TFCD with a model is an exchange for our talents. She gives me her time and modeling talent and I give her the best images that I am able to produce. For me that means going thru the images and selecting the winners. I let her select a few from the digital proofs and I select the rest. For me TFCD doesn't mean a 'fake shoot' where quality doesn't matter.
As someone said before if you are serious about modeling you wouldn't use more than 2-3 max from the same shoot in your portfolio anyway - the same goes for the photographer. A CD full of unedited images isn't a real benefit to anyone -- unless your objective is to just accumulate images and not really work towards building a quality body of work.
My TFCD terms are made clear to all models before the shoot and are spelled out on my release form that all models get to examine way before the shoot. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Photographer
Carpe Imago Photography
Posts: 1757
Dousman, Wisconsin, US
JAY carreon wrote:
No, you are wrong. This is TFCD - they get a CD of images. But it isn't TFCDWAI - Time For CD With All Images. Do you really want your worst work circulating out there? All photographers make "wasted frames" - it's just that the successful one's don't publicize theirs.
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER Ring-a-ding-ding, we have a winner and his name is Jay Carreon!
I am a reformed "all images" guy, and I would never do it again for exactly the reason that Jay points out. It's about brand management and control. The model blinks, or your light bleeds, or you find that a tree is growing out of the back of her head. All bad shots that can and will harm your reputation if the wrong people see them. If you don't think so, ask an advertising agency how many time they are willing to let you make a first impression.
If you don't care that those images are out there, then AT LEAST do the talent a favor and let them know that you are a serious amateur photographer and don't pretend to treat your photography like a business. After all, he or she is investing his/her time to and they are entitled to knowing the full story. Then put it in your release with the terms spelled out explicitly, and everyone walks away happy.
Model
Jessalyn
Posts: 21433
Denver, Colorado, US
Bryan Benoit wrote:
I have to disagree. When I enter in a TFCD with a model is an exchange for our talents. She gives me her time and modeling talent and I give her the best images that I am able to produce. For me that means going thru the images and selecting the winners. I let her select a few from the digital proofs and I select the rest. For me TFCD doesn't mean a 'fake shoot' where quality doesn't matter.
As someone said before if you are serious about modeling you wouldn't use more than 2-3 max from the same shoot in your portfolio anyway - the same goes for the photographer. A CD full of unedited images isn't a real benefit to anyone -- unless your objective is to just accumulate images and not really work towards building a quality body of work.
My TFCD terms are made clear to all models before the shoot and are spelled out on my release form that all models get to examine way before the shoot. I agree with everything you said above but I wanted to mention the benefit of providing all of the images to the model.
I do not use any more than 3 pictures from a shoot in my portfolio. But I like to receive all the images (if the photographer is ok with it, if not I would never demand it) because I study my poses. What works, what doesn't, what blemishes show up on pictures, what blemishes don't, what my strong points are, what my weak points are, and so on. I don't use the pictures, I study them. TFCD is supposed to benefit both parties, and that is one way it benefits a model. Otherwise she wont learn.
That being said, many models do NOT need to be provided with all the images because they will do stupid things with them like edit them really shitty or choose the badly composed ones.
I just wanted to provide a reason why many models DO want all the pictures and what the benefit is to them.
Photographer
Carpe Imago Photography
Posts: 1757
Dousman, Wisconsin, US
Bryan Benoit wrote:
When I enter in a TFCD with a model is an exchange for our talents. She gives me her time and modeling talent and I give her the best images that I am able to produce. For me that means going thru the images and selecting the winners. I let her select a few from the digital proofs and I select the rest. For me TFCD doesn't mean a 'fake shoot' where quality doesn't matter.
A CD full of unedited images isn't a real benefit to anyone -- unless your objective is to just accumulate images and not really work towards building a quality body of work. Listen to this guy...he is dead on the money!
Photographer
Carpe Imago Photography
Posts: 1757
Dousman, Wisconsin, US
Jessalyn wrote:
I agree with everything you said above but I wanted to mention the benefit of providing all of the images to the model.
I do not use any more than 3 pictures from a shoot in my portfolio. But I like to receive all the images (if the photographer is ok with it, if not I would never demand it) because I study my poses. What works, what doesn't, what blemishes show up on pictures, what blemishes don't, what my strong points are, what my weak points are, and so on. I don't use the pictures, I study them. TFCD is supposed to benefit both parties, and that is one way it benefits a model. Otherwise she wont learn.
That being said, many models do NOT need to be provided with all the images because they will do stupid things with them like edit them really shitty or choose the badly composed ones.
I just wanted to provide a reason why many models DO want all the pictures and what the benefit is to them. Jessalyn, if every model was as professional and committed to improving her craft as you are, I would give them every image from every shoot...even those snapshots of my kids. The problem that I've had is watching some "internet models" take images marked "PROOF ONLY", scan them into a .jpg, and then post them as portfolio shots. Granted, they are light years from you in terms of professionalism, but unfortunately I can't know that until we've worked together a few times. I have to assume the worst to protect the brand image.
But I will say this, when a model, stylist, or photographer earns my trust, I'll do anything that I can to help them. So you might become an exception to the rule.
Photographer
Rp-photo
Posts: 42711
Houston, Texas, US
Jessalyn wrote:
I agree with everything you said above but I wanted to mention the benefit of providing all of the images to the model.
I do not use any more than 3 pictures from a shoot in my portfolio. But I like to receive all the images (if the photographer is ok with it, if not I would never demand it) because I study my poses. What works, what doesn't, what blemishes show up on pictures, what blemishes don't, what my strong points are, what my weak points are, and so on. I don't use the pictures, I study them. TFCD is supposed to benefit both parties, and that is one way it benefits a model. Otherwise she wont learn.
That being said, many models do NOT need to be provided with all the images because they will do stupid things with them like edit them really shitty or choose the badly composed ones.
I just wanted to provide a reason why many models DO want all the pictures and what the benefit is to them. I agree completely and always provide my models with all unedited images from the shoot, except perhaps those with gross errors like bad focus or severe over-exposure.
I believe this is a privledge extened to the model, and as we all know, with privledge comes responsibility.
The model's responsibilities include:
1. Do not use proof images or thumbnails (yes, it happens) in your portfolio! If you just have to have one up ASAP, see if the photographer can "express process" it quickly. I always offer this option to models.
2. Don't edit proof images as it's a waste of time with a low-res image and goes against the normal model-photographer relationship.
3. Participate in the image selection process to the degree that it was agreed to.
Photographer
Mark Anderson
Posts: 2472
Atlanta, Georgia, US
I don't allow unedited images out of the studio - it reflects on all those involved in the shoot. The model can select up to 2 images per look from a web based flash gallery that I create after the shoot. I fully edit them and provide the model with a CD containing both printable and web sized versions of the edited images. If a model requires all of the unedited images on a CD then we probably won't shoot. Why 2 images per look? Because most professional models don't une many images from any single shoot. Two images per look gives some flexibility to the selection process and also pushes the selector to pick the very best of the look.
Photographer
Ralph Logan Photography
Posts: 383
Santa Ana, California, US
I give the Model for TFCD about 80% of the images of the shoot...
Photographer
Cynthia T
Posts: 213
Kolia, Alo, Wallis and Futuna
Peter Jaena wrote:
Its only fair that they get the whole bunch. It's TFCD, so I dont choose anymore. I just give the model everything. Then I photoshop the best ones, and burn in a separate CD to be given later. The reason I don't give every image is that every image doesn't represent my finished work and this acts as a quality control.
I do allow models to see every shot taken via online proofing but I have it clearly stated that this is for selection purposes only and they aren't to use them professionally or display them publicly (including on Myspace accounts).
Photographer
Nasilele Photography
Posts: 56
Brooklyn, New York, US
Thanks so much for all the replies... you have given me a better underastanding
Another question
Does TFCD ever stand for Time for credit? If yes, what exactly does this include?
Photographer
Bryan Benoit
Posts: 2106
Miami, Florida, US
Nasilele Photography wrote:
Thanks so much for all the replies... you have given me a better underastanding
Another question
Does TFCD ever stand for Time for credit? If yes, what exactly does this include? Haven't heard that term before. Can you please explain?
Time for a 'credit card' I know.. it is a paid shoot..;o)
Photographer
Daniel
Posts: 5169
Brooklyn, New York, US
JAY carreon wrote:
Do you really want your worst work circulating out there? If there's a release covering the terms of use then that needn't be a concern. Personally, having all of the images just as a matter of personal record is preferred, then choosing from the agreed upon images (edited or not, by the photographer) for my port.
Photographer
Nasilele Photography
Posts: 56
Brooklyn, New York, US
Bryan Benoit wrote:
Haven't heard that term before. Can you please explain?
Time for a 'credit card' I know.. it is a paid shoot..;o) LOL I haven't heard it before either but I like your definition of it much more.
Photographer
215 Studios
Posts: 3453
Center Point, Texas, US
I don't give models who shoot TFCD with me any images! I just bring them into the studio, get them nekkid, shoot all sorts of inappropriate images and send them on the way with a promise to get them everythign as soon as I can.
Actually, I allow for proofing immediately after the shoot (yes, I even did this when I was shooting film full time. They just had to wait for me to process it.) The model can pick a few out that they like and I'll pick several out, myself. I dont' have a "set number" that I allow. If we click, there might be 25-30 images that I like and am willing to PP on. If the model is a pain in my ass, and I'm a pain in his/her ass, then chances are good I've formated the card right in front of them, and asked them to leave, anyway. (Seriously, I've done this, before... I just wish I could have gotten a picture of their face when I did it!) That, or there will only be a select few images issued.
I've only given out a few "everythign" CDs. I just feel really weird about it for some reason. But I'm happy to allow a model to study any and all images at length there in the studio. Even if they would like to come back at a later date and do so...
-Major
|