David A Verespie wrote:
I hear ya Alan.. thats why I offered her a contact sheet. She didnt sign a release. I never intended on selling the pictures.

Trust me, I am not flaming you, just making suggestions.  The trick here is to give her the contact sheet before you edit the images.  Perhaps you can circle the ones you recommend and put "X's" through the ones you are unwilling to edit because they came out badly.

If you do it first, rather than after, you head off a lot of problems.  On the other hand, I don't think you are being unreasonable offering it to her now.   I am just making suggestions for the next time.

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:

Trust me, I am not flaming you, just making suggestions.  The trick here is to give her the contact sheet before you edit the images.  Perhaps you can circle the ones you recommend and put "X's" through the ones you are unwilling to edit because they came out badly.

If you do it first, rather than after, you head off a lot of problems.  On the other hand, I don't think you are being unreasonable offering it to her now.   I am just making suggestions for the next time.

SusanInce wrote:
Yes, she has the right to every shot. They are pictures of her and she has a right to want them all.  She may want the edited shots for use for model work or maybe her website but she may see something in the other shots that she may like as well and ask you to edit for her at a later date and furthermore she make feel like scrambling a bunch of photos together one day using pics from her first photo shoot to her latest, why would she not want pictures that were taken of her own body...

Alan from Aavian Prod wrote:
OK, I will wade into this.  First, she was a client.  SHE PAID YOU!  Whether or not $100 was fair, that isn't her problem, it is yours.  You set the price. 

Since she paid you, she is entitled to see the images, good or bad.  The normal way this is done is for the photographer to provide a proof sheet, or a CD with watermarked, low-res images.  It is fine for you to recommend the images she should take, but that is really up to her.  If she wants to pick an image she hates, she is the client. 

So the bottom line is that you probably did pick the best images, but at a minimum, you should show her the rest so she will know why you picked the ones you did.

In terms of you selling the images, I am confused about something here.  Did you have her sign a release for you?  If you did not, you have very limited rights to use the images without her consent.  There are some uses, but they are restricted.

On the other hand, if you had her sign a release that isn't normal when you are the one being paid.  When someone walks into a portrait studio to have their picture taken, they don't normally give the studio the right to sell the pictures.  Indeed, in many of the chains, if the studios want to put an image on display, they will pay the client, by way of a discount, for permission to show the photo or use it in their ads.

That having been said, there is no reason, if a shoot was only $100 that you can't treat it as a hybrid shoot.  By that I mean that in exchange for receiving prints with defined usage rights, she agrees to pay you $100 plus model for you.  However, if you were doing something non-standard like that, I would be sure to spell it out clearly in advance because studio clients don't generally provide a release to the photographer if they were paying them.   Indeed, they are entitled to, and expect privacy when they go to a studio photographer for portraits, headshots or modeling shots.

When you spell it out though, make the agreement clear and also be sure you are giving the model something of tangible value in return for the release.  I say that because she is a client, i.e. you are demanding that she pay you in addition to giving you the release.

Good luck to you and just be a little more clear in the future.

Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!

Alan provided you with the best advise and saved me 5 minutes of writting you the same.

I can add that if she wants a CD, you can give her a CD with the unedited low res, water mark images for her to review.
On a similar case but on a TFP with a contract that stated that I will pick up the proof ( 50 more or less) the model still want to see a particular picture that she thought turn out. I expend 5 minutes talking to her, emailed her the image and she got convince to trust my judgment. I had said the image that you want is not flattering for you because .....
She appreciated that I understood her point of view and that I expend the time to work with her.
End of the deal.

David A Verespie wrote:
So question now... Shes still pissed even though I offered her a contact sheet 3 fucking times. Can I use the images for my portfolio? I've never had this happen before.

I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this... but

.. here's what I suggest. Give her the photos.. Low Res, of course, On a CD, and wash your hands of the situation..  If they are bad photos and you're worried about them being associated with your name do it under the condition that she agrees (in writing) not to credit you as the photographer and be done...

Yes, it is true... some photographers would not want to cave like this on principle. But you're about 85% responsible for not spelling out the expectations (in writing) in advance. So, you'll just have to eat it... If she agrees to not credit you then I don't see how they can damage your reputation.

And then, in parting ways you can give her a nice jab.. something like, "You know.. there's a difference between modeling and getting your picture took. Are you interested in modeling or just saying cheese." Just a subtle rib like that will make you feel a lot better.

Next time, ALL EXPECTATIONS need to be in writing. Even if it's not in Legalese.. An agreement in plain English is better than none.

David A Verespie wrote:
Can anyone help me with the usage question since no release was signed? She told me during the shoot I could use them on my website if that helps any..

Forget usage. You stepped into this mess. Now if I were you I'd just step out and wash and dry your feet with a crisp new $100 bill.

David A Verespie wrote:
So question now... Shes still pissed even though I offered her a contact sheet 3 fucking times. Can I use the images for my portfolio? I've never had this happen before.

You have some really nice images in your port.
Do you really need to use her images?
Give up
Avoid more headache for you.\You have a very limited use of the images if you do not have a release.

John Jebbia wrote:

Forget usage. You stepped into this mess. Now if I were you I'd just step out and wash and dry your feet with a crisp new $100 bill.

Listen to John.
Another wise man.

SusanInce wrote:
Somebody on here said its not standard practice for a model to get every photo shot of her...I don't know where he gets his practice but every photographer that I have worked with has given a cd the same day they did the photo shoot of me.  If i want them to edit them then I pay for him to edit up to a certain amt at a set price but all images of me belong to me..stop being selfish, if you help everybody get what they want then you will get what you want...stop living in fear and keep a good reputation..It is everything in this business.

HaHaHa....I'm glad I checked back in on this thread.
What the hell are some photographers doing to our trade? Man I really like working with professional clients.
I have been working on a contract for two months now. With a client in Arizona. I will have it singed this week. All that work averts all the stress other than that caused by the shoot itself.
I think all these new photographers that have no idea of what they are doing business wise should be banned from shooting with people. Landscapes only. enough of my rant.
Damn, CD the same day? Oh this one is priceless "but all images of me belong to me"
OK now, I'm going to bed. Not the least bit worried that I will loose any work over this kind of practice.
J

David A Verespie wrote:
So question now... Shes still pissed even though I offered her a contact sheet 3 fucking times. Can I use the images for my portfolio? I've never had this happen before.

Delete them and move on.
Oh, sorry I should be in bed.
G'nite

FJL Photo wrote:
$1, $10, $100 0r a million does not matter, you set a price. You did not say she only got what you gave her so either edit every thing or give her the shots like they are.

PS if she wants to play in photo shop, she can do it with edited shots as well.

Jerry Coleman  wrote:
1. No one but you has the right to PS these images under copyright law.  Tell her that.  Then give her the images.

That isn't necessarily true.  That isn't exactly what is written in copyright act, but that is a discussion we can have another day.

Bevan Pryor wrote:
simple  client pays for shoot client owns rights, "you have none without a release".
she is entitled to the proofs and to processed images of her choice. she is not entitled to the negs or digital cds "the new neg" and can only have reproductions
thru you at a standard print fee or unit cost.

You can never publish to the web or ad flyer any image from a paid shoot with out a release from the client.

And this is way off " client pays for shoot client owns rights" Simply put the finger that pushed the button owns the rights.
I hope you haven't been running your business like this.

another day, and I'm going back to bed