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when to shoot for free and when to get paid
LoL @ Christopher. Without backgrounds people just clash dude. It's another example of people doing it as a career and those who don't (and are incredibly independently wealthy like you, dude! ). Both of you are right, targetting different audience. Let's separate the two sides, please. ** That is, start another thread about how not to make money and have fun ** - enough hijacking...really. - Leo the Moderator May 17 07 01:34 pm Link Great post Sean. :-) May 17 07 01:38 pm Link Spotty Dotty wrote: How do you go from "I don't shoot to make a living" to "I am independently wealthy?" I've never claimed to be independently wealthy. I merely say that I don't need to make a living at photography. There are scores of photographers here on MM in the very same boat, and we all seem to be derided by those who do make a living with photography as some kind of evil bastards, taking food out of the commercial shooter's mouth. May 17 07 02:37 pm Link Legacys 7 wrote: And they are? May 17 07 02:59 pm Link Ronnie Adar wrote: the links are posted on page 2. May 17 07 03:04 pm Link Legacys 7 wrote: thanks... May 17 07 03:11 pm Link Sean thanks for the advice. May 17 07 03:17 pm Link Christopher Ambler wrote: From your Bio maybe? May 17 07 03:26 pm Link [Bookmarked] Thank you Sean and everyone contributed. May 17 07 03:30 pm Link Laurence Moan wrote: Points, in order: Getting lucky doesn't necessarily equate to wealth. "She" is a fake account for someone's cat. I dumped my angst in the 80's when I stopped being emo. May 17 07 03:51 pm Link ** Enough threadjacking to a really good thread! ** Leo - Moderator May 17 07 03:53 pm Link Sean, Thanks for the sound advice. I hope to turn the corner to paid work as I improve. To the others who seem intent on hijacking this thread for. This is some of the best advice I've seen or heard on making the move to become a working photographer. I'm here to learn and get better. Feel free to start your own thread called "I like to shoot half or fully naked women in my spare time because most dating sites require a picture of me". If you have a reply email me (I'll just delete it) and stop wasting every ones time with your self absorbed babble. ""She" is a fake account for someone's cat. I dumped my angst in the 80's when I stopped being emo. And I still don't like cats." Who cares if you like cats or not. Maybe your thread should be posted on cathaters.com. Good Luck to everyone here, Frank May 17 07 07:38 pm Link I love this guy! May 17 07 08:02 pm Link Ahhhh... the Mighty Sean has spoken.. that means 2 things 1. He's finally got enough free time from shooting and editing to come on MM to chat and post. 2. He better be planning another meet for the 1 he started A LONG time ago with the So Cal photographers hahaha. Seriously you had a great thing started, i'd love to see it follow through. Now to add my 2cents for those who are asking the question how do I start to make a little money to recoup my investment in gear, or even on how to make a career out of it. RULE #1 its a business so start treating it as a business and not a hobby any more. One of the easiest ways to discover who might start paying for your photography is to clearly identify your TARGET MARKET! Many many online articles on market research or identifying your Target Market. This WORKS even for MODELS!!! A model friend of mine who has a $4,000.00 day rate and gets paid that atleast once a month. She's not the most beautiful fashion model, nor the tallest, skinnest, but shes got good business sense. She treated her modeling career as a job, identified her strongest traits and assests. Found the target market that fit those traits and went in for the kill. She hustled her ass off, but by doing so she has done well for herself. Entrepreneur.com has a WEALTH of valuable information all for free.. Great place to start. May 17 07 08:42 pm Link good threads should not be lost Jun 28 07 08:48 am Link You have really hit the nail on the head. Excellent thread! Jun 28 07 08:54 am Link excellent advice.. thanks so much Jun 28 07 08:59 am Link simple free jobs = slavery now do as you want tb Jun 28 07 08:59 am Link It's just a matter of balance. What do I get out of the job vs what does the client get out of the job. I just went to Mexico to shoot a brand new hotel--no pay(I have photographed all other 4 hotels they own). I flew myself and my assistant down there. The hotel covered all our costs for the 5 nights. They will tell anyone interested in pics to contact me--maybe I will make some cash on this, maybe I won't. But I do have probably 4 or 5 new spreads in my portfolio and it gives me a chance to contact clients(magazines) and say "hey, I just shot this new hotel". Also got to meet new people and see a bit of Mexico I only new in a surface way. And I would rather be shooting on the days I am not booked, even if it is for free. Of course, if the shoot subject is something I have no connection to and is ugly or not designed well in my eyes, I will either turn it down or do it only for the money. Jun 28 07 09:03 am Link Why, oh why, was somebody's bashing of the entire hobbyist sector necromanced? Jun 28 07 09:06 am Link Brooks Ayola wrote: This is why I have no interest in pursuing "L.A. clients". People here undercut you. Consequently, these "L.A. clients" expect everyone - even photographers - to work for them for free. Unless, of course, you're from New York or some other part of the world. Art buyers in L.A. have little or no respect for so-called "L.A. photographers" - and that's partly the fault of . . . "L.A. photographers": undercutting each other or giving it away for free*. Jun 28 07 09:42 am Link My "Official" response to this bit of necromancy: https://modelmayhem.com/p.php?thread_id=158779 Jun 28 07 09:53 am Link This thread just got introduced to my bookmarks in IE. Excellent advice. Sean Armenta wrote: Now, I have to ask. What's your advice for getting models to realize this? I got a ton of responses to my LA travel notice, and a bunch from these "up and coming" girls w/ really crappy photos in their port. (think camera phone) They were expecting TFCD, or in some cases, for ME to pay THEM. It was kinda frustrating, but no biggie because I'm not gonna let the fun be taken out of this for me. Jun 28 07 10:09 am Link I attack this thread with my Sword of Rigtheous Justice (+2 against undead). Jun 28 07 10:13 am Link good post by sean. needs a bump. Aug 09 07 04:12 pm Link WELL WRITTEN and thank your for bumping! Aug 09 07 04:27 pm Link yes, absolutely give it away so they can find you, once they start calling you you'll know your ready to charge. I am one of the few that strictly shoots models full time..no weddings,portraits, seniors ect... so i had to get into all the agenices to start with....it took 2 years of giving it away.... ..i know when and who to give it away too...and who needs to pay and when. as a favor to a booker......sure....give it up gladly great looking model who is absolutely "my"type.....sure local celebrity.....sure...... always exceptions to every rule thanks Sean Aug 09 07 06:52 pm Link the bump couldnt have had better timing. a mag i used to do ad trade last with just reapproached me wanting me to shoot some things for them. i shot odds and ends for them for a couple years thinking it would progress. i never got any gigs worth putting in a book and commercial clients really dont respond to ads. so its really just a waste of my time. thanks for reminding me not to let myself be taken advantage of. Aug 09 07 07:06 pm Link this is fantastic. So I'm waiting for the phone calls.... Aug 09 07 07:06 pm Link Just wanted to say that Sean has EXCELLENT advice! My shoots are "tfp" BUT, I am a stock photographer for the most part, so the model I feel gets a deal... a shoot with me with a full crew and I get a stock release in return, which can be of great value to me later. If it's not a stock shoot I am $5,000 a day for advertising... There are times you should turn down paying job as well... For instance just today I turned down a very large magazine that Kathy Griffin requested me for. They would not give me the the budget to shoot my concept properly, by the time I paid the crew....bare bones editorial rates there was $300 to style and make props, not to mention getting paid myself.... So I told them I was wrong for the spread. Stay true to your artistic spirit and DO NOT COMPROMISE, even for $$$ or tear sheets!! XO GG Aug 09 07 07:22 pm Link Rosie O'Donnell = Very well paid and gun to head as incentive. Cheryl Ladd = OK, I will pay to photograph her but she will probably need gun to head as incentive. Aug 09 07 07:26 pm Link You had me until you said, 'NEVER compete on price or rate.' This is simply not in step with the reality of the day to day industry. Estimates and triple-bid projects are standard. The economic climate has a direct impact on the industry. To ignor bacis business principles such as competition is like a race car driver ignoring the cars around him. Unless or until you are taking truely original photographs can you estimate projects with inflexibility in regards to price. Economics are not the only consideration, but they certainly can steer the results of the creative decisions. Sometimes it is actually a releif to work on editorial projects that have standard, predetermined rate structures. That is not to say that one should devalue their work. Rather it would be smarter to realize and accept that there are many talented photographers out there (especially outside of the web circles) and that this is a business (for some) which follows patterns familiar to other businesses. Aug 09 07 08:02 pm Link Sean Armenta wrote: I thought I read, Aug 09 07 08:43 pm Link Dan Howell wrote: let's put it this way dan -- what you charge for a job has no bearing on what i would charge for the same job. simply because i am not competing with you on price. i charge what i charge based on what it costs for me to stay in business regardless of what my competitors charge. i charge what the client needs to pay in order for me to produce the work they need. Aug 10 07 12:53 am Link Madcrow Studios wrote: and yet again, you reply without truly reading or understanding what the post was about. Aug 10 07 12:57 am Link I love it when artists that I admire share their knowledge and experience with those of us that can benefit from it... Thank you Sean... Aug 10 07 01:01 am Link eyelight wrote: Took the words right off of my fingers *translated through keys* Aug 10 07 01:06 am Link Sean, thank you for the awesome info at the most opportune time for me. Aug 10 07 01:57 am Link Sean Armenta wrote: I hope you will take a minute to re-examine your statement because it appears to me that you are charging jobs based on your needs not the value of the project. By the logic of your statement, you would charge the same for an editorial day as you would for a national ad that takes the same time and production expenses. That is simply not true to how the industry works. While costs of production (and photographer's overhead) do factor into the equation, your statement is not a reflection of how the majority of the industry works. Aug 10 07 10:13 am Link I've seen several questions recently, so bump Aug 27 07 05:06 pm Link |