Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Alternate Endings Photo wrote:
Gosh, I thought I tied up this thread nicely here! You thought that because you got some responses which fit your preconceptions. Stick around.
Photographer
Holopaw Pictures
Posts: 1299
Tampa, Florida, US
TXPhotog wrote:
Congratulations, you are the first to lay claim to number two! It's true. There are too many adult attractive women who look 17 or younger to risk taking a shot with Susie 17 year old that daddy thinks makes his little girl look like a porn star.
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Holopaw Pictures wrote:
It's true. There are too many adult attractive women who look 17 or younger to risk taking a shot with Susie 17 year old that daddy thinks makes his little girl look like a porn star. Numbers 6 and 7 are still available. You want to go for them too? You could have the trifecta!
Oh, wait . . . I think that qualifies as a 6. But you can still grab 7 while it's hot!
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
It is funny, there is just nothing scary about working with a minor so long as you know when to say yes and when to say no.
I started a thread last week about a mother asking me to shoot implied nudes of her thirteen year old daughter because she was told by a photographer that she needed them to get signed by an agency. I said "no." Not because it was illegal (I know how to take a legal image), but because there is no reason for a 13 year old to have implied photos. I couldn't see the point of exposing myself to any aggravation by getting involved and I saw no reason for the 13 year old to have the pictures.
A few days ago I started a thread because I was asked to do fashion and swimwear for a 16 year old. I said "yes" without any hesitation. The images were totally age appropriate, the parent was going to be present and I had absolutely no issues. I have no problems at all shooting a minor when we are doing age appropriate photos. I don't understand the paranoia.
Yesterday I got a call from a photographer who participates on the net and has a 16 and 17 year old daughters. Both shoot sheer lingerie all the time. I got a lecture from the photographer/dad as to how he doesn't care what his teen daughters do, so long as it isn't full nudes. He boasted about how his 16 year old daughter was just paid $900 to shoot for a nearly nude teen exploitation site.
He was also excited because she was being hired by a guy from craigslist to shoot for a European lingerie catalog (the oldest line in the book OK, one of the oldest). He told me all about how the Europeans do topless over there so he has no problem with his 16 year old doing lingerie for the catalog. Of course, there is no catalog, he is just gullible.
I won't get near her with a ten foot pole. The reason is that what she is doing may be within his limits, but who knows if everybody doing these sheer lingerie shots is shooting images that fit legal standards. I don't want to be in a situation where some perv shoots an open leg lingerie shot with her hand in the wrong place and have the constables looking into every shooter she has worked with.
This is all about knowing when to say "no." It isn't difficult to know. But I have no problems shooting minors. The vast majority of the time there is nothing to be afraid of. And IT IS NOT ILLEGAL.
$900 to shoot for a
Model
Stephanie Sanders
Posts: 120
Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
I think that as long as the model has permission, and you written permission from a parent, its fine. Ive heard this from many photographers.
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32780
Detroit, Michigan, US
SLE Photography wrote:
I'd like to point out that you have NO WAY OF KNOWING if that was really her mom on the phone. And you have no way of knowing that you met the mom in person. Lots of families have different last names now, so even checking IDs isn't foolproof.
If someone is lying to you, they are gonna lie regardless. I proceed in good faith and don't worry about what someone else does.
Photographer
Lumigraphics
Posts: 32780
Detroit, Michigan, US
So far my best model shoot was with a 16 year old, and her mother wasn't present. However, the model has parental permission to model, her boyfriend came along (mainly to haul her clothes!), we shot in public, age-appropriate, and we all had a great time.
Maybe my perspective is different from teaching high school for a year, but I'm not scared to interact with teenagers. If adult-teen relationships were so risky, the entire public school system in this country would have collapsed decades ago.
Photographer
Visual Eden Studios
Posts: 491
Chicago, Illinois, US
Visual Eden Studios wrote:
Likewise...maybe its less of an issue since I am female, but I've picked girls up at grampas house (whom she lived with) with my stylist in tow (male) and drove off for a 10 hour day...returning them safe and sound at the end of the night. G'pa signed off on release without ever seeing photos. Granted I shoot fashion editorial mainly, and there was nothing to be concerned with...but I shoot without parents all the time.
The key? The parent/guardian has met me, or driven the model to the shoot, or the agency has dropped them off. ward wrote:
Likewise. Thx. Agency bookers know me and have had me pick up models for shoots at the subway or train station. So, it's all about credibility and trust at the end of the day. KARLOS MATTHEWS wrote:
shoot the model and move on............... ward wrote:
 werd. And to illustrate my point:
![https://img7.modelmayhem.com/070527/13/4659c2dab8f37_m.jpg]()
Wilhelmina L.A. model - 17 years old, agency dropped her off at shoot, I dropped her back to the model apt
![https://img7.modelmayhem.com/070527/13/4659c26dc606c_m.jpg]()
![https://img7.modelmayhem.com/070515/14/4649fc1d2374b_m.jpg]()
Mom dropped her off, met me, and left and came back later to pick up. She was 16, first shoot ever.
![https://img7.modelmayhem.com/070515/14/4649fa08da8a7_m.jpg]()
![https://img7.modelmayhem.com/070515/14/4649f997eb6d6_m.jpg]()
Aforementioned picked up at G'pa's model...2nd shoot ever. 17.
Photographer
R Michael Walker
Posts: 11987
Costa Mesa, California, US
Alternate Endings Photo wrote:
Well I do run a fully staffed studio, so there is actually never a time when its only me and a model. But even so, down the line, if one were so unfortunate as to have to explain this to a judge, the letter of the law is such that I believe that I would be on the wrong side of the matter. Believe me..if she says "he touched me" your life is in shambles...guilty until proven innocent. laws to protect minors actually MAKE the police investigate any minor complaints even without proof or corroboration of any kind. And grand juries will only hear you had her in your studio not fully dressed and any prosecutor worth his/her salt can make that sound awfully sleazy. And if you have any nudes of other models they will be paraded thru and the Prosecutor will imply that was the direction you would eventually try and take the minor... That means an indictment is inevitable and now you face a felony...look up defense lawyers prices for that in your area. I could go on but if this doesn't scare you off .... Let me just say always keep a female assistant at your side while shooting.
Photographer
Wet Ltd
Posts: 1936
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Bryanna Nicole wrote:
Also - I have been doing wardrobe styling for a while now.. I can't tell you how many times a 15 yr old agency model shows up all by herself.. aaaaaaaaand.. we don't know her age until I ask (must be the mom in me)
I just can't believe these agencies don't tell the testing photogs their ages.. I mean, don't they worry about their models? What happens if something happens??? Thank you Tracy.......I wish there were more out there like you and less of everyone else. I now just refuse to work with anyone under 18, no exceptions cause I don't need some good minded public citizen seeing a pic and asking questions, so I just don't put myself in that place anymore.
Model
Ashley Jaime
Posts: 254
Los Angeles, California, US
Bryanna Nicole wrote:
Yes.. others are - like I said earlier, the kid has no problem with me leaving her alone at a shoot - but let me ask you this, would you let your 15 yr old daughter ride the subway in a strange city by herself and get herself to a shoot, leaving well after dark and again ride the subway in a strange city? I suppose in my case, I know there is much more to a guardian/escort responsibility than the actual shoot -
So what it all boils down to is this - is the photographer really all the concerned few are concerned about?
Actually.. now that I think about it, the photographer is the least of our worries.. okay, I hijacked your thread  time for me to goooooooooooo
I'll shut up now and go grill some Jersey sweet corn  At 15 My daughter could drag herself and all her luggage from one airport to the train, to the subway, to the bus station, to the other airport in New York to fly out to Miami without a blink of the eye. I get lost under ground and lose my sense of directions but, Ashley is a pro on getting around New York by subway. A lot of underage models use the subway system alone to get to castings without any problems.
Please do take this the wrong way......Ashley's mom.
Photographer
M_M_P
Posts: 3410
Seattle, Washington, US
Ashley Jaime wrote:
At 15 My daughter could drag herself and all her luggage from one airport to the train, to the subway, to the bus station, to the other airport in New York to fly out to Miami without a blink of the eye. I get lost under ground and lose my sense of directions but, Ashley is a pro on getting around New York by subway. A lot of underage models use the subway system alone to get to castings without any problems.
Please do take this the wrong way......Ashley's mom. Oy! I get so confused when the moms start posting with their daughters accounts. I'm slow with these forums as it is and it really makes it even harder to keep up! There should be some sort of symbol/water mark on the avatars of minors.
Parenting styles really differ and I think the important thing is that you are both involved with your daughters' pursuits. It's much less likely that there will be problems in any regard (modeling or otherwise) if parents are a part of their children's interests.
I would admittedly be hesitant to let my daughter go to N.Y. by herself at 15, but I wouldn't feel the need to do any more than get her to the shoot and pick her up afterward. Of course, she is 3 currently and my opinion may change as she gets older. I imagine that every kid's level of responsibility is different and I would gauge my decisions based on that.
Model
Ashley Jaime
Posts: 254
Los Angeles, California, US
Michael Moe wrote:
Oy! I get so confused when the moms start posting with their daughters accounts. I'm slow with these forums as it is and it really makes it even harder to keep up! There should be some sort of symbol/water mark on the avatars of minors.
Parenting styles really differ and I think the important thing is that you are both involved with your daughters' pursuits. It's much less likely that there will be problems in any regard (modeling or otherwise) if parents are a part of their children's interests.
I would admittedly be hesitant to let my daughter go to N.Y. by herself at 15, but I wouldn't feel the need to do any more than get her to the shoot and pick her up afterward. Of course, she is 3 currently and my opinion may change as she gets older. I imagine that every kid's level of responsibility is different and I would gauge my decisions based on that. Sorry 1st post ever in 2 years....
Very involved she started when she was 13 learning planes,trains, and subways. I would never let her if she was not a very serious and capable. Last post...Ashleys mom
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68937
Orlando, Florida, US
SLE Photography wrote:
I'd like to point out that you have NO WAY OF KNOWING if that was really her mom on the phone. Lumigraphics wrote:
And you have no way of knowing that you met the mom in person. Lots of families have different last names now, so even checking IDs isn't foolproof.
If someone is lying to you, they are gonna lie regardless. I proceed in good faith and don't worry about what someone else does. Agreed, but the OP noted the girl in question had lied about her age in her port & through the initial negotiations.
Obviously the photographer needs to deal with a parent or guardian at some point to get releases & such done, I was just pointing out that in this case trusting someone over the phone seemed like a very bad idea.
Model
Bryanna Nova
Posts: 186
Milford, New Jersey, US
Sorry OP Ashley Jaime wrote:
At 15 My daughter could drag herself and all her luggage from one airport to the train, to the subway, to the bus station, to the other airport in New York to fly out to Miami without a blink of the eye. I get lost under ground and lose my sense of directions but, Ashley is a pro on getting around New York by subway. A lot of underage models use the subway system alone to get to castings without any problems.
Please do take this the wrong way......Ashley's mom. I hope you meant please "don't" take this the wrong way.. LOL I won't 
However, people are all different, children are raised differently - and sometimes their are underlying circumstances that cause one parent to act differently from another in the very same situation.
I have trusted, and I have been burned - big time.. does that mean my kid is going to have the same problem? No..of course not, but the chances of something happening decrease substantially if I (or someone) keeps a protective on her. It is a personal choice to be as involved as I am in her blossoming career.. one my daughter freely admits she would have no other way.
Please don't misunderstand.. I am not gouging anyone's parenting skills.. everyone of us is human.. I am just saying - at the tender age these models are starting out at.. they should have a protective eye upon them more times than not - even if they are capable of doing it all on their own.
And maybe.. just maybe.. when this becomes a perfect world, I'll loosen the apron strings a bit.
Photographer
James Jackson Fashion
Posts: 11132
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, US
I'm starting to wonder if I should get rid of my MM account.
I mean... obviously... there are a lot of child molesters who have horrible track-records of dealing with children inappropriately who are members of the site and who have court orders telling them that it is illegal to interact with 16 year olds at all.
Photographer
American Glamour
Posts: 38813
Detroit, Michigan, US
James Jackson wrote:
I'm starting to wonder if I should get rid of my MM account.
I mean... obviously... there are a lot of child molesters who have horrible track-records of dealing with children inappropriately who are members of the site and who have court orders telling them that it is illegal to interact with 16 year olds at all. You do gotta wonder a bit, don't 'cha?
Photographer
SLE Photography
Posts: 68937
Orlando, Florida, US
SLE Photography wrote:
IMPORTANT TIP: Protect your gear! Shooting in mines is almost as bad as shooting at the beach for fine particles getting in to your equipment & damaging it. I am REALLY saddened that this insightful & helpful tip got no attention
Model
Celia Cyanide
Posts: 569
Minneapolis, Minnesota, US
Alternate Endings Photo wrote:
I recently made arrangements with a model for a TFCD shoot. I approached her to shoot. After a few talks, we made arrangements to shoot. Everything was good. THEN she tells me shes only 17, and that her port, is inaccurate. Just curious...does it bother you that she lied about her age? That would probably bother me more than just her being a minor.
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7805
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Celia Cyanide wrote:
Just curious...does it bother you that she lied about her age? That would probably bother me more than just her being a minor. Right on... Age matters little of you're not shooting sexy and don't plan on any commercial use. The fact that somebody would lie, on the other hand...
Photographer
Emeritus
Posts: 22000
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Madcrow Studios wrote:
Right on... Age matters little of you're not shooting sexy and don't plan on any commercial use. The fact that somebody would lie, on the other hand... While I agree that I'd be bothered by the lie more than the age, it would be because it is symptomatic of other issues that may concern me. I have, for instance, the notion that honest people are less likely to be flakes, and less likely to have hidden agendas.
However, while objectively it may be true that "age matters little if you're not shooting sexy and don't plan on commercial use", subjectively for many people that is not true. In witness whereof, I offer the many statements by people in threads like these that they would not shoot an "underage" model under any circumstances.
Photographer
Madcrow Photographics
Posts: 7805
Boston, Massachusetts, US
TXPhotog wrote:
While I agree that I'd be bothered by the lie more than the age, it would be because it is symptomatic of other issues that may concern me. I have, for instance, the notion that honest people are less likely to be flakes, and less likely to have hidden agendas.
However, while objectively it may be true that "age matters little if you're not shooting sexy and don't plan on commercial use", subjectively for many people that is not true. In witness whereof, I offer the many statements by people in threads like these that they would not shoot an "underage" model under any circumstances. Ah yes, the tinfoil hat set...
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
"It's easy - you just don't lead 'em so much."
Gustav Hasford The Short Timers
JAY carreon
PHOTOGRAPHER
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
Bryanna Nicole wrote:
Being the mother of a minor - I go with her to every shoot - however, this latest endeavor of hers, the contest she was in.. they told us we weren't allowed to be there - I was a little uncomfortable with that.. but she was fine. Go figure.
Also - I have been doing wardrobe styling for a while now.. I can't tell you how many times a 15 yr old agency model shows up all by herself.. aaaaaaaaand.. we don't know her age until I ask (must be the mom in me)
I just can't believe these agencies don't tell the testing photogs their ages.. I mean, don't they worry about their models? What happens if something happens???
In truth - it has actually made me question the industry and it's practices in regards to my daughter, I know I can't always be there and be her protector, but I also feel as a minor and a "employee" of the agency, they should be taking responsibility.
I know I got a little off your topic.. but - I guess what it all boils down to is this - how you handle the situation and is the model worth having a full crew present to protect yourself?
Yes - protect yourself, be certain to have others present at the shoot (MUA and/or hair, wardrobe.. a female assisitant is always wise too - asures you never have to physically touch the model to adjust clothing, hair..etc)
- be smart, don't shoot anything not age appropriate, even if the model asks you to.
Good luck ;o)
Tracy Your daughter has a beautiful profile!!
Photographer
Jerry Nemeth
Posts: 33355
Dearborn, Michigan, US
TXPhotog wrote:
Congratulations, you are the first to lay claim to number two! LOL
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
ward wrote:
I have shot minors...with and without a parent present, both agency repped and non-agency models. I'm not sure what the big issue is for people if you have a 'team' there with you for hair, makeup, styling etc, and if you are professional and reputable and trustworthy. This should be a non-issue. 50 points.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
TXPhotog wrote:
Numbers 6 and 7 are still available. You want to go for them too? You could have the trifecta!
Oh, wait . . . I think that qualifies as a 6. But you can still grab 7 while it's hot! Best laugh of the week!
Photographer
Visual Eden Studios
Posts: 491
Chicago, Illinois, US
SLE Photography wrote:
IMPORTANT TIP: Protect your gear! Shooting in mines is almost as bad as shooting at the beach for fine particles getting in to your equipment & damaging it. SLE Photography wrote:
I am REALLY saddened that this insightful & helpful tip got no attention Actually I copied it, pasted it, printed it out in a nice big sans serif font, and taped it to my wall...
I found it quite helpful!
Photographer
Ought To Be Shot
Posts: 1887
Saint John, New Brunswick, Canada
An accusation alone can kill your reputation. Have a parent or gaurdian present.
Photographer
RED Photographic
Posts: 1458
TXPhotog wrote:
This has to be the 500th thread on this subject. And it's just getting started. Predictable things happen in each one of them:
1. Someone will claim that it's illegal to shoot minors without a parent present, or without parental written permission. When challenged to show us the law, they get aggressive about not needing no steekin' law, 'cause it's just obvious.
2. Someone will opine that you should just wait until she is 18.
3. Someone will claim that anyone who shoots minors for any reason is a perv.
4. Someone will claim that if a parent signs a release, the shoot is legal, but it's not legal without a release.
5. Someone will insist that the entire damned National Guard of their state has to be present to protect . . . uh . . . someone.
6. Someone will invoke kiddie porn, even though the planned shoot is stated to be fully clothed and age-appropriate.
7. Someone will simply say "Ewwwww!" as though that defined a law of nature. A couple of weeks ago I was asked to take photographs of a 16 year-old boy, who was a minor actor in a minor British comedy show. It was a rush job, the kid had missed a photo-call because of exams at school, and the television company needed shots of him for promotional purposes. There was a new series coming up, and they needed to revamp the show's website. The only reason I got the job was because the kid lived near me and I'd done some work for his agent. The kid rode over on his bike, without any parents, and there was no paperwork for the shoot. I guess that contravenes No.1.
The person was 16, and it was a rush job, so I couldn't wait until he was 18. I guess that contravenes No.2.
I also photograph nudes. The kid was 16. That's No.3
No-one signed a Model Release, I think the agency is taking care of that. Does that qualify for No.4?
No-one else was present, and the shoot took place in the studio at my house. I cleaned up his spots in post production, he didn't need make-up and he did his own hair. No.5, I think.
The kid wandered around in his underwear before and after the shoot, but wore approximations of his tv clothes during the session. That might be rule No.6 out of the window.
This is where it falls down, though, because no-one went "ewwwwwwwww". That might be the only reason why I'm still here and I haven't been arrested and questioned, or had my house burned down by an angry mob.
Mind you, I haven't been paid yet...
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