PYPI wrote:
It a trick used to allows search engines to index those designers and key words. Since those terms are not relevant to that page, I hide them with white text on white background so it does not disrupt the design of the home page.

too bad search engines like google reject that nowadays

modeldennis wrote:

too bad search engines like google reject that nowadays

Not for me. I'm special. Go ahead a google something uncommon from the list above.

_Kt_ wrote:
While everyone is still here, does anyone have any tips for designing logos and websites?  I am a self-taught beginner.  Right now I am working on a nonprofit website.  I am trying to learn more about CSS and javascript, especially since things like the font tag are being depreciated in html.  Also, I am trying to learn more about making logos.

This is a good source for css design. http://www.csszengarden.com/

For logos, I leave that to the professionals. Less is more.

PYPI wrote:

This is a good source for css design. http://www.csszengarden.com/

For logos, I leave that to the professionals. Less is more.

yeap.

As a graphic designer I seconded that notion.

I feel sad for embossed- outer glow curls fonts logo.

sad sad sad.

_Kt_ wrote:
While everyone is still here, does anyone have any tips for designing logos and websites?  I am a self-taught beginner.  Right now I am working on a nonprofit website.  I am trying to learn more about CSS and javascript, especially since things like the font tag are being depreciated in html.  Also, I am trying to learn more about making logos.

Here are some simple things to consider while designing Logos.  I am sure the experts will have to add something to what I say.

Logos's purpose is instant identification and association with a business entity.  The treatment can range from simple text to highly stylized graphics.  It can communicate the nature of the business, but not necessarily.  The association registers with common public with constant exposure of the logo with the business.  Eg. IngDirect.com - Between the Ing and Direct, you have a Lion.  What has the Lion got to do with Banking?  Or does it say something about the founders?  Perhaps a symbol associated with a different country?  Microsoft's is a Bold Italacized Sans Serif font - very simple and reproducible.  Apple has an apple for its logo with bitten off top corner.  What has apple got to do with computers?  Does the apple with a bite refer to the fruit from the tree of forbidden knowledge?  Does that mean the founders have the knowledge or that they represent a company that are pioneers in knowledge?  Commerce bank has a stylized C in red.

So, make sure the font or graphics you design can scale to anywhere from a tiny newspaper ad to something that can go onto a billboard.  If you have been to a vision examination you would notice that as the letters grow smaller, certain letters become difficult to distinguish.  Eg, a B might look like a D, or a D or C might appear to be an O.  Mind your negative space.

Also the same logo in black and white should not loose its clarity.  Bad example would be my own logo (well it is not all bad; it balances very well with my letterhead).  The drop shadow and the embossed text are going to be blobs of dark mass in a tiny ad.  I have printed color business cards with the above logo and they are fine, but I suspect a black and white representation of that on an one inch wide column can ruin it.  A good logo uses flat color, may be two or three colors.  Some shades of colors can become too faded in black and white.

Adding lines, curves can balance, provide boundaries and dynamism to the design.

Digigrapher wrote:
Eg. IngDirect.com - Between the Ing and Direct, you have a Lion.  What has the Lion got to do with Banking?  Or does it say something about the founders?  Perhaps a symbol associated with a different country?

Has nothing to do with the topic but you are right about the last point...ING is a dutch bank (it once stood for Internationale Nederlanden Groep....International Netherlands Group). Orange and a lion are commonly associated with our country

WhittleyPhoto wrote:
Patrick, just had a quick question, whats with all this text at the bottom of your site? I see that it just tells whats on the site and what you have done, but why is the text color white?
...

The earlier search engines used to look at the meta tag keywords to determine the relevance of the page to the search criteria.  Just by placing the keywords in the meta tag in the page header one could get picked up.  Then Google changed its algorithm: it actually started checking for these words in the page's content among other rules and gave a weightage.  It also looks for links referencing your pages/domain and their weightage also contributes significantly.  The higher the points, the higher the placement.

PYPI wrote:
Not for me. I'm special. Go ahead a google something uncommon from the list above.

lol.. that's not fair. Looks like there's an exact copy of those keywords in your Meta tag.. So this test wouldn't be telling...

modeldennis wrote:

Has nothing to do with the topic but you are right about the last point...ING is a dutch bank (it once stood for Internationale Nederlanden Groep....International Netherlands Group). Orange and a lion are commonly associated with our country

Thanks.  I forgot the country at the time I was writing: I kept getting Netherland in my head and I did not want to be incorrect and some one jumping in going off in a tangent. 

The point is, you can make anything a logo and associate it with an entity over time, provided you convince the client.  True, I created this thread to get someone interested in hiring me for design/development work.  I am from the old school: I get a client, gather the requirements, understand the client, find what is important for the client, what feature needs to be projected, propose couple of solutions, get feedback and sign off from the client before I execute.  I was hoping to attract people needing my services, instead I have detractors.

My design professor once said, take a piece of paper, put a black dot on it and show to a group of people and ask what do you see.  The answer will be a black dot.  Nature of human psyche.

John Jebbia wrote:

lol.. that's not fair. Looks like there's an exact copy of those keywords in your Meta tag.. So this test wouldn't be telling...

The reason is in my post just above yours - google started to check for the occurrences of the keywords in the body of the page.  The number of times it appears in the body also adds weight to the relevance.

Lerista wrote:

yeap.

As a graphic designer I seconded that notion.

I feel sad for embossed- outer glow curls fonts logo.

sad sad sad.

Don't be sad.  The logo works for me.  I am a sad person anyway.  Just think of it this way: I am a sad joker - I make others happy but my life sucks.

Digigrapher wrote:
Don't be sad.  The logo works for me.  I am a sad person anyway.  Just think of it this way: I am a sad joker - I make others happy but my life sucks.

okey.. what now?

You actually do have logo with outer glow with curls fonts?



Let me seeeeeeeeee!!

I love to see a great designed logo consist of curls fonts and outer glow to prove me wrong.. until then, its screams amateur that just learned to use a design program.

I saw you logo with the shadow.. yeahhh.. um... not that impressive.



That makes me think.. with all those experience and education under OP's belt.. why making a trainwreck?



Now.. I don't do web-design. but dude.. seriously.. you expect ppl to pay for that kind of layout?
I have print design and logo branding under my belt..and I will never suggest my client to even take a second glance at your work when they are shopping for new web-designer.

John Jebbia wrote:

lol.. that's not fair. Looks like there's an exact copy of those keywords in your Meta tag.. So this test wouldn't be telling...

Google stopped looking at meta tags years ago.

Digigrapher wrote:
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/DigiGrapher/Composites/Mockup-1-SampleSection2.jpg

My opinion have not changed a bit.  And you didnt fulfill the requirements of curl fonts type and outer glow.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Digigrapher wrote:
True, I created this thread to get someone interested in hiring me for design/development work.  I am from the old school: I get a client, gather the requirements, understand the client, find what is important for the client, what feature needs to be projected, propose couple of solutions, get feedback and sign off from the client before I execute.  I was hoping to attract people needing my services, instead I have detractors.

You can hope all you want. Your refusal to show any samples sites speaks loud and clear. Only an idiot would hire you for web design without seeing your work and even a blind man would not hire you after seeing your flyer.

Digigrapher wrote:
My design professor once said, take a piece of paper, put a black dot on it and show to a group of people and ask what do you see.  The answer will be a black dot.  Nature of human psyche.

Take a piece of paper, put a crappy logo on it and show it to a group of people and ask what do you see? The answer will be ______________________.

Any guesses?

Digigrapher wrote:

The reason is in my post just above yours - google started to check for the occurrences of the keywords in the body of the page.  The number of times it appears in the body also adds weight to the relevance.

You think so, huh?

Nobody's gotten it right yet, though a few are close.

Christopher Ambler wrote:

You think so, huh?

Nobody's gotten it right yet, though a few are close.

The algorithm to determine the relevance of a page to a query is complex - there are many steps. The meta tags were one of the earlier methods to describe the nature of the page.
The keyword tags were used by search engines to locate results in response to a query.  The purpose of the tag was to identify and locate pages quickly. 

People started misusing it: place keywords that have no relevance to the content.

Also, the content is scanned and word references created.  The occurences of words  within the body provide the weightage.  That is why, he has the keywords repeated within the body but hidden from view by choosing a color that matches the background of the page.

Word repetation is not the only thing that is done.  Google also checks how many links refer to your page.  The more links to your page, the more higher up you get.  I was just explaining why he had those repeated and in white.

Lerista wrote:
And you didnt fulfill the requirements of curl fonts type and outer glow.

It's like talking to a brick wall.

What are you refering to?  There is no style applied to the font other than bold and strong.

Keep talking and the wall will break.  The wall will come tumbling down.

Digigrapher wrote:
The algorithm ...

Uh-huh. Okay. Doing the whole "do you know who you're talking to" thing just doesn't have the appeal it used to.

PYPI wrote:
You can hope all you want. Your refusal to show any samples sites speaks loud and clear. Only an idiot would hire you for web design without seeing your work and even a blind man would not hire you after seeing your flyer.
.

The idiot may have unknowingly got the best deal ever.  In business, you don't have to be the best, have the best product, or the cheapest, or have resume of top clients.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be any new development, innovations,  or products hitting the market.  I have done business with friends even when I knew it was a bit expensive than going rate.  The same reason, we buy from the local farmers.

PYPI wrote:
Take a piece of paper, put a crappy logo on it and show it to a group of people and ask what do you see? The answer will be ______________________.

Any guesses?

You heard about: any publicity is good publicity?  Scandals become an opportunity to get free air on major news channels for days and weeks?  My "crappy" logo did get attention, didn't it?

PYPI wrote:
You can hope all you want. Your refusal to show any samples sites speaks loud and clear. Only an idiot would hire you for web design without seeing your work and even a blind man would not hire you after seeing your flyer.
.

The idiot may have unknowingly got the best deal ever.  In business, you don't have to be the best, have the best product, or the cheapest, or have resume of top clients.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be any new development, innovations,  or products hitting the market.  I have done business with friends even when I knew it was a bit expensive than going rate.  The same reason, we buy from the local farmers.

PYPI wrote:
Take a piece of paper, put a crappy logo on it and show it to a group of people and ask what do you see? The answer will be ______________________.

Any guesses?

You heard about: any publicity is good publicity?  Scandals become an opportunity to get free air on major news channels for days and weeks?  My "crappy" logo did get attention, didn't it?

PYPI wrote:
You can hope all you want. Your refusal to show any samples sites speaks loud and clear. Only an idiot would hire you for web design without seeing your work and even a blind man would not hire you after seeing your flyer.
.

The idiot may have unknowingly got the best deal ever.  In business, you don't have to be the best, have the best product, or the cheapest, or have resume of top clients.  Otherwise, there wouldn't be any new development, innovations,  or products hitting the market.  I have done business with friends even when I knew it was a bit expensive than going rate.  The same reason, we buy from the local farmers.

PYPI wrote:
Take a piece of paper, put a crappy logo on it and show it to a group of people and ask what do you see? The answer will be ______________________.

Any guesses?

You heard about: any publicity is good publicity?  Scandals become an opportunity to get free air on major news channels for days and weeks?  My "crappy" logo did get attention, didn't it?

Lerista wrote:

okey.. what now?

You actually do have logo with outer glow with curls fonts?



Let me seeeeeeeeee!!

I love to see a great designed logo consist of curls fonts and outer glow to prove me wrong.. until then, its screams amateur that just learned to use a design program.

I saw you logo with the shadow.. yeahhh.. um... not that impressive.

Not much of a glow, but "curls fonts" and shadow. Is that amateur too?

Shelly Scott wrote:
Color Scheme.  Layout needs some work.

I am not attacking you.  I think you can easily fix your mistakes by looking at other websites that you admire and using them as your inspiration.

I totally agree with Shelly's accessment.  The color schemes & layout need alot of work!

I applaud you for holding a Masters in Information Science and I am sure that you are very good at building in functionality in a website.  However, you are not a Graphic Designer as your examples are not visually appealing.

By the way, if you think that I am talking about something that I do not know about, I have taught advanced website design at a local community college.  I also can provide examples of my work for you to see.

Good luck to you!

Nelia wrote:

I totally agree with Shelly's accessment.  The color schemes & layout need alot of work!

I applaud you for holding a Masters in Information Science and I am sure that you are very good at building in functionality in a website.  However, you are not a Graphic Designer as your examples are not visually appealing.

By the way, if you think that I am talking about something that I do not know about, I have taught advanced website design at a local community college.  I also can provide examples of my work for you to see.

Good luck to you!

For a minute I thought Scott Kelby left the above comment   There are plenty of examples around: excellent, good, bad, average, and some worse than my example above.  Thanks and will appreciate some examples to see.  I will take Shelly Scott's advice into consideration.

RB Media Photography wrote:
To the others, the only person that has proven to have any real ability in graphic/web design on this thread is Laretta H. From all the web sites I've looked at from the people leaving there opinions and criticizing the OP, Laretta's is the only one that stands out.

Wha? Thought mine wasn't that bad either...and atleast I gave constructive criticism on the first page instead of trying to slaughter the guy...

modeldennis wrote:
I also have to agree...the logo for starters looks...outdated. Design isn't easy and being allround in webdesign (technical and graphical) is hard to do. Still...you seem from what you said to know the technical side, now brush up on the graphic side

Perhaps... but possible if you have the right tools and talent.

modeldennis wrote:
Also indeed...the lack of a portfolio never helps your case when looking for clients. You could maybe build a few mockups for people to see until you build a real portfolio? Then atleast they can get an idea of your skills. You have to sell what you can do and at the moment you are selling...well...a picture with pricetags on it.

Suggestion taken note of.  I guess, for freelance work and for employment one needs a portfolio.  For business, portfolio helps but not necessary.

Lerista wrote:

okey.. what now?

You actually do have logo with outer glow with curls fonts?



Let me seeeeeeeeee!!

I love to see a great designed logo consist of curls fonts and outer glow to prove me wrong.. until then, its screams amateur that just learned to use a design program.

I saw you logo with the shadow.. yeahhh.. um... not that impressive.



That makes me think.. with all those experience and education under OP's belt.. why making a trainwreck?



Now.. I don't do web-design. but dude.. seriously.. you expect ppl to pay for that kind of layout?
I have print design and logo branding under my belt..and I will never suggest my client to even take a second glance at your work when they are shopping for new web-designer.

michaelinfinity wrote:
Wow...I got brigged for callin a guy a name after he called me ignorant or rather stated it in a few words.....

anyhow....

I can knockout a website in one day, if you want graphics, add another, FLASH, AJAX, LAMP add another day or two depending on how extensive the coding is...oh and XML will take more time.

one day-50.00
two days - 100.00
database AJAX, LAMP,FLASH - TBD

reading this topic - PRICELESS

OK. I may not be a big fan of the OP's graphic design skills and I took him to task for not showing a port but you coming in here and hijacking his thread with your own competing offer is not cool. You can go start your own thread peddling your services but you really should have left this one alone.

PYPI wrote:

OK. I may not be a big fan of the OP's graphic design skills and I took him to task for not showing a port but you coming in here and hijacking his thread with your own competing offer is not cool. You can go start your own thread peddling your services but you really should have left this one alone.

Thanks, Patrick.

Digigrapher wrote:
Loveless,
I used to make $1565 per week as a software engineer.  Just begining to freelance.

Patrick,
Before you attack someone else, I recommend that you take your suggestion and go to a design school.  But then again, going to design school would not necessarily make you a good designer.  You have used frames to build your site, there is no cohesiveness in your design, your links open into new popup windows, and navigation system is confusing.  Although your choice of color and text is pleasing, there are pages like the digital camera comparisons etc and the navigation negate the overall experience.  For your credit, you do have good images in your portfolio.

My approach to web site designing and what I have to offer is founded on my several years of experience designing and developing business critical applications in client/server and distributed environment.  I can provide solutions that you will not get from templated sites.  BTW, I hold a Masters in Information Science.  Also, I had done three semesters in Visual Communications long, long back covering drawing, color, psychology, copy writing, photography etc.

There are numerous examples of people without degrees making millions if not billions.  Two examples that come to mind - Gates and Dell.

Wow. Without even commenting on the images, I only want to say that I decided not to contact the OP for my website based on his responses here. He's too argumentative to be in a customer facing role. I hope he realizes that his behavior here - directly in his own advertising - paints an unattractive picture of his business approach.

I'm going to keep hunting for a website designer now... LOL

Chris Ford
fotoMOJO