Model
Annalyn
Posts: 198
New York, New York, US
This message is for people who are questioning others, including me, bringing up issues such as religion, which may cause tensions between others on this site.
I have observed in my college classes and other places a fear of heated debate -- a desperate clinging to "political correctness," a vague idea of politeness being similar to muteness, and, most dangerous of all, a belief in an idea of "professionalism" that condemns all emotion, passion, and commitment as somehow distasteful and unhealthy. What I find most often with the vast majority of young adults is that their complaints and problems boil below the surface, never expressed or resolved. They somehow have gone through life (growing up in the 80's/90's/whenever) without experiencing the exciting, liberating, and weirdly entertaining-- not to mention life lesson-teaching -- experience of airing out one's thoughts and feelings with colleagues and collaborators, and hearing their thoughts and feelings expressed with passion. It can, indeed, be frightening; but bottling it up and pretending it doesn't exist can be worse.
If we all assume that there is no room for shared thoughts, and expressed views, where does that leave us? We should be different; we should scream when someone really pisses off.
Most of us in theatre/modeling/the arts have done this at times, having probably taken criticism, and have lived to learn from it. And, as I've reminded a few people, if you ever receive a message/thread that you don't wish to read, you have the power to instantaneously delete, or not look at it. Don't be afraid to use it, don't be afraid to speak your mind, don't be afraid to feel something . . . But please fear holding it inside or denying it until you explode! That's the great danger that I see people do that I am constantly observing; one need only check the daily newspaper to find random examples of when that internal pressure overloads in such people.
Photographer
Monsante Bey
Posts: 2111
Columbus, Georgia, US
You know, there's nothing I love more than a spirited face to face debate.
But in all honesty, this just isn't the place for it. Reasons being...
It's a model message board, we should be discussing related topics.
It's hard to distinguish emotions and intent via text sometimes.
There are people who's life experiences are not as rich as others and only get their world view based on TV, movies and their friends.
You have people still stuck in the 50's and 60's in their mentality towards others.
And despite it all, I doubt very highly that they'll learn anyway. Most people learn by listening to someone in authority that has a proven or self percieved proven track record.
Case in point, at least 3 times a week we have a discussion on TFP.
At least once a week some girl claims some photog molested her.
At least once a week some girl is crying about not getting her CD, and probably hasn't signed a release form or got payment up front either.
So I applaud you in your efforts, but you're definitely fighting an uphill battle during an ice storm in cheap tennis shoes.
Photographer
photoguy42
Posts: 2925
Toledo, Ohio, US
this, like any other online forum, is going to have people who either can't take a joke, can't take anything serious, or are just out to evoke reactions from one of those two groups. (read: trolls) so just take everything that's said with a grain of salt and pick your battles carefully and be careful how you word stuff. Or just hang the sense of it and not worry about the discussions and pimp out your work to the people you wanna work with.
Here's why I like this place.
I like the 18 and over thing. (or 16, whatever it might be)
I'm really sick of getting notification of new profiles on OMP where the model is like 1 year old or something...anything where it's just the parents trying to make money off their kid...
At least as far as I know, everyone on here is on here of their own free will.
Model
Annalyn
Posts: 198
New York, New York, US
Monsante Bey wrote:
It's a model message board, we should be discussing related topics. This particular message board is labeled as "Off topic discussions"
Monsante Bey wrote:
So I applaud you in your efforts, but you're definitely fighting an uphill battle during an ice storm in cheap tennis shoes. No kidding. But at least perhaps some will read it and take it even minimally into consideration when reading other's opinions.
Photographer
area291
Posts: 2525
Calabasas, California, US
Annalyn wrote:
This message is for people who are questioning others, including me, bringing up issues such as religion, which may cause tensions between others on this site. Thank you for your personal abridged blog.
What you and others may not realize is the impact on the site when issues such as religion, which may cause tensions between others on this site are brought to the forefront.
Topics that cut to the quick and create that tension lead to defamation of others professional character. We've seen the heated debates and they can become nasty with each person standing high holding their personal moral compass with no regard to damage inflicted, specifically toward professional character standing.
The impact is the site takes on legal responsibility for such character assassination actions through the use of moderators, and moderators seemingly have far more to do than simply keep people in line. When moderators are placed on forums there becomes a legal responsibility of the site to maintain conduct that does not inflict damage.
One of the very reasons in the rise of blogs is the responsibility forums must take on by moderating opinions that conflict with both site purpose and irresponsible actions that can put the site in legal peril. "Go put it on your blog" has been a mainstay in that protection by keeping heated topics off forums that can lead to defamation, libel or contribution to the negligence thereof by the site.
While the veiled excuse has been made countless times that topics are "off-topic" it goes much deeper. Those with selfish motivation to force opinion merely for the sake of heated debate put the site at risk which potentially does damage to the whole community.
There is no value-add to the community through persistence of those wishing to make their unimportant opinions heard. I, for one, would vote off-topic (redundant via General Mayhem) down in a heartbeat in favor of a forum area that serves far greater purpose and extends site value to the many signing up for membership, "models seeking gigs."
Perhaps that's what people should work toward, yourself included, as opposed to having nothing really important to say, just a place to say it.
Photographer
Graven Image
Posts: 43
Newport News, Virginia, US
Personally, I love a great debate. The problem, I think, is that so many people are so ingrained with their particular way of thinking that they cannot see the world past the end of their own nose. They cannot open themselves to the notion that other people might have something truly valuable to offer them, if they could only drop their gaurd for a moment.
I don't mind having off-topic discussions on a site such as this. While I think we are all drawn together for love of a specific medium (in this case, working together to create images), we are all still people with variant backgrounds and ideals. I think sharing the things that make us who we are should always be welcomed in an open forum. If someone were to tell me that I was a complete idiot, I would still respect him for an open and honest opinion.
I think everyone's opnion is important, no matter what it is. I could say that I really love to eat Lucky Charms, or I really don't care for that Jesus guy (one of which is true...see if you can guess which!) and those two facts will help create a portrait of me as a person. Any defamation or questioning of character done by closed-minded people who are so afraid of differing viewpoints that they feel they must violently attack any opposition is sad and at the end of the day, useless.
This is a community, and while I am here to meet people who are interesting in working with me, having a discussion that would further my understanding of the people who use this service seems like an interesting venture. And while we might not be able to shake hands after a heated debate, I promise there will be no hard feelings.
Photographer
Cory Morhart Photo
Posts: 2340
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
Graven Image wrote:
Personally, I love a great debate. The problem, I think, is that so many people are so ingrained with their particular way of thinking that they cannot see the world past the end of their own nose. They cannot open themselves to the notion that other people might have something truly valuable to offer them, if they could only drop their gaurd for a moment. That is why it rarely works out. People try to make their opinion known while those with an opposing opinion do the same. Neither really listens, neither will ever convince the other differently and it all goes down predictably.
Photographer
Graven Image
Posts: 43
Newport News, Virginia, US
CM Photography wrote:
That is why it rarely works out. People try to make their opinion known while those with an opposing opinion do the same. Neither really listens, neither will ever convince the other differently and it all goes down predictably. I agree wholeheartedly here. I guess let me clarify by saying that I love hearing opposing viewpoints, which is why I love debate. I think, however, that while the two people debating may never convince each other, those listening will have two opposing viewpoints to consider, when before they might have had only one, or none.
Photographer
Nihilus
Posts: 10888
Nashville, Tennessee, US
CM Photography wrote:
That is why it rarely works out. People try to make their opinion known while those with an opposing opinion do the same. Neither really listens, neither will ever convince the other differently and it all goes down predictably. This seems to go on daily in the 'Critique' forum and with any topic concerning 'true' photographic talent/artistry/professionalism in the first place anyway. Those, however, are topics directly related to how 2 people will work/coalesce together...whereas (I should hope) a difference in philosophical pursuits wouldn't be an issue when two parties are working together.
Model
Annalyn
Posts: 198
New York, New York, US
area291 wrote:
Thank you for your personal abridged blog.
What you and others may not realize is the impact on the site when issues such as religion, which may cause tensions between others on this site are brought to the forefront.
Topics that cut to the quick and create that tension lead to defamation of others professional character. We've seen the heated debates and they can become nasty with each person standing high holding their personal moral compass with no regard to damage inflicted, specifically toward professional character standing.
The impact is the site takes on legal responsibility for such character assassination actions through the use of moderators, and moderators seemingly have far more to do than simply keep people in line. When moderators are placed on forums there becomes a legal responsibility of the site to maintain conduct that does not inflict damage.
One of the very reasons in the rise of blogs is the responsibility forums must take on by moderating opinions that conflict with both site purpose and irresponsible actions that can put the site in legal peril. "Go put it on your blog" has been a mainstay in that protection by keeping heated topics off forums that can lead to defamation, libel or contribution to the negligence thereof by the site.
While the veiled excuse has been made countless times that topics are "off-topic" it goes much deeper. Those with selfish motivation to force opinion merely for the sake of heated debate put the site at risk which potentially does damage to the whole community.
There is no value-add to the community through persistence of those wishing to make their unimportant opinions heard. I, for one, would vote off-topic (redundant via General Mayhem) down in a heartbeat in favor of a forum area that serves far greater purpose and extends site value to the many signing up for membership, "models seeking gigs."
Perhaps that's what people should work toward, yourself included, as opposed to having nothing really important to say, just a place to say it. I agree with some of your statements. However, please don't make the mistake against ALL people who post their opinions (i.e. framing all of them into one mindset and assuming that all of them merely post their opinions to infuse a debate)... as you and I both feel that some have.
I agree that there isn't much value in posting opinions, because, well, my personal belief is that only situations and events can change people's opinions... and that other's opinions cannot change people to think their way... at least not too often. But just because it is "worthless", in a sense, this doesn't validate outlawing it.
Let's face it, every message board on pretty much EVERY website is bound to have some misconduct, rude people, or others disagreeing in not a very well mannered and close-minded way. The only present rule on MM to avoid this to an extent is "no name calling". Keeping people from voicing their opinions at all, even if they don't critizice someone personally, is not a good approach, because it isn't possible.
Even if the "off topic" discussions board was deleted from this site, I think that people who are pissed off beyond belief about something outside of this website would be bound to take it out on somebody/something in any way they could.
Photographer
John Van
Posts: 3122
Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
I increasingly decline to participate in any opinion threads here because most quickly become a meaningless fight filled with prejudices and ignorance, combined with a lack of desire to actually learn something.
If people spend half of the time they now spend here to first read the facts, be it something in the news, in history or in geography, these forum threads could actually be interesting.
Photographer
Voice of Reason
Posts: 8741
Anaheim, California, US
area291 wrote:
Thank you for your personal abridged blog.
What you and others may not realize is the impact on the site when issues such as religion, which may cause tensions between others on this site are brought to the forefront.
Topics that cut to the quick and create that tension lead to defamation of others professional character. We've seen the heated debates and they can become nasty with each person standing high holding their personal moral compass with no regard to damage inflicted, specifically toward professional character standing.
The impact is the site takes on legal responsibility for such character assassination actions through the use of moderators, and moderators seemingly have far more to do than simply keep people in line. When moderators are placed on forums there becomes a legal responsibility of the site to maintain conduct that does not inflict damage.
One of the very reasons in the rise of blogs is the responsibility forums must take on by moderating opinions that conflict with both site purpose and irresponsible actions that can put the site in legal peril. "Go put it on your blog" has been a mainstay in that protection by keeping heated topics off forums that can lead to defamation, libel or contribution to the negligence thereof by the site.
While the veiled excuse has been made countless times that topics are "off-topic" it goes much deeper. Those with selfish motivation to force opinion merely for the sake of heated debate put the site at risk which potentially does damage to the whole community.
There is no value-add to the community through persistence of those wishing to make their unimportant opinions heard. I, for one, would vote off-topic (redundant via General Mayhem) down in a heartbeat in favor of a forum area that serves far greater purpose and extends site value to the many signing up for membership, "models seeking gigs."
Perhaps that's what people should work toward, yourself included, as opposed to having nothing really important to say, just a place to say it. Correct me if I'm wrong, and I mean this in no way to be disrespectful or as an insult, but weren't you one of the people who not too long ago were strongly for public dissention on the off-topic forum and heavily involved in several political debates? If not, sorry, I must have you confused with someone else. If so, why the change of thought?
Model
Annalyn
Posts: 198
New York, New York, US
JvR wrote:
I increasingly decline to participate in any opinion threads here because most quickly become a meaningless fight filled with prejudices and ignorance, combined with a lack of desire to actually learn something. What's an example of this on MM? I haven't been using the message boards for that long, so I have only been exposed to respectful debates. When did this occur?
JvR wrote:
If people spend half of the time they now spend here to first read the facts, be it something in the news, in history or in geography, these forum threads could actually be interesting. That's true, facts can back up debates, if for example, you are debating on, say, how the women's rights movement influenced women today in terms of when it occured, or whether or not we should be in Iraq right now, etc.
But what if there was a debate on what types of television shows are the most enjoyable for people, personally? Or what about opinions on home decor, or what kids are being taught in school? These can only, to a small extent, be backed up by facts.
Opinions come from the heart and our feelings and experiences, not only from facts that we've learned. Like your opinion that fact based opinions create a more interesting debate, it is more interesting for me, personally, to hear people's point of view that comes from inside them and what they feel, in a respectful way, of course, rather than merely from what they know as facts. Although, I do enjoy learning new facts! Hearing others' point of view from internally, as opposed to externally, is a way for me, and others, to get to know people and who they are, rather than just knowing information.
Photographer
Herb Way
Posts: 1506
Black Mountain, North Carolina, US
Coming from one so young, your observations are very refreshing and give baby boomers like myself reason to hope. My overall impression of people under 40 is that they tend to lack backbone and are more concerned with doing what's considered acceptable. It's hard for me to imagine today's young people making the Civil Rights movement happen or bringing an end to the Vietnam war.
Photographer
area291
Posts: 2525
Calabasas, California, US
David,
Yes, you are correct that I participated in political discussion. In the zeal to cast my opinion on others I discovered my thoughts served as an arrow to heart at one whom I admire greatly for reasons beyond mere party affiliation.
Just as in your inability to recall exactly if it was me, I'm hopeful the perception of insensibilty fades every bit as quickly. You will notice now my comments are directed at taking the opinion elsewhere for the reasons stated in the above reply to the OP.
I will admit, it is difficult. Especially when reading thoughts of those whose mind in comparative term has no greater opening than f-22.
Photographer
Voice of Reason
Posts: 8741
Anaheim, California, US
area291 wrote:
David,
Yes, you are correct that I participated in political discussion. In the zeal to cast my opinion on others I discovered my thoughts served as an arrow to heart at one whom I admire greatly for reasons beyond mere party affiliation.
Just as in your inability to recall exactly if it was me, I'm hopeful the perception of insensibilty fades every bit as quickly. You will notice now my comments are directed at taking the opinion elsewhere for the reasons stated in the above reply to the OP.
I will admit, it is difficult. Especially when reading thoughts of those whose mind in comparative term has no greater opening than f-22. I can respect that. I hope in my zeal to cast my own opinion on others I haven't offended in any way and have at least acted as adult as possible!
Photographer
Brian Diaz
Posts: 65617
Danbury, Connecticut, US
I have no zeal to cast opinions, but I sure hope I offend someone. 
Photographer
John Van
Posts: 3122
Rotterdam, Zuid-Holland, Netherlands
Annalyn wrote:
What's an example of this on MM? I haven't been using the message boards for that long, so I have only been exposed to respectful debates. When did this occur? I occurs in virtually every thread that has to do with politics, religion, the law or foreign countries.
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