Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 
I have a few of questions for you Dan.

First, are you a photographer full time?

Second, so the agencies pay you to shoot the models for clients?

Third, what about for personal projects, do you still find your models from agencies?  If so, how much do you have to pay?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything as usual, I'm just trying to find the plus sides of the agency thing compared to the online world.

I have a few of questions for you Dan.

Albright I’ll see what I can do.

First, are you a photographer full time?

Yep, but as a commercial photographer I shoot a lot more than just models. I also shoot a lot product illustration and interiors. Most of the models I shoot are either commercial models or real people. My portfolio here and on omp has mainly my fashion print work but up here in Northern California, commercial/lifestyle work is where the money is.

Here is an example of a commercial shot I did last year. This guy is a commercial model, he has agencies in LA, SF, and Sacramento. In Sactown he is reped by Cast Images. In San Francisco he has The Stars Agency. (That’s where he was booked through)  and a LA agency. I can’t remember which one but when he said it the name was familiar. I also remember he has one in Portland because he has a daughter that lives there. Don’t know how much direct work he gets from there.



Remember working with models doesn't just mean tall skinny female teenagers.

If you go to say Cast images site http://www.castimages.com that is how a true commercial agency is laid out by gender and race and age.

It’s done that way so say like sometime I need a Hispanic looking grandma, I can locate one fast, maybe do a direct booking from the site. Remember as a agency their reputation is on the line so if she don’t look like she looks on the site the agency wont get repeat business. With independent models you never know. Also availability’ an issue, if say one Hispanic grandma isn’t available they have more and it’s their job to line them up.

Second, so the agencies pay you to shoot the models for clients?

No, Here in California there are strong rules about that.

What an agency does is say to a model here is a list of photographers who can shoot the type of work you need for your card or book and let the model purchase the work. That way there normally isn’t any kick back or anything. At least on paper. Most agencies know about what you charge and they can recommend to the model to use one photographer in particular if they really want that photographers work on this models card.

In places like NYC, with the editorial fashion agency stystem, agency’s setting up tests with models and putting the costs on a models account is common, but not out here and never with commercial agency’s.


Third, what about for personal projects, do you still find your models from agencies? If so, how much do you have to pay?

Yes, I use agency models all the time for “speck shoots” or testing. Honestly, I have never paid money to shoot a model in my life.

Here is what you do, make an appointment with the owner or  head booker. Show them your work and tell them you want on the testing board. Here is the killer IF YOUR WORK IS THE TYPE AN AGENCY CAN USE TO MARKET THEIR MODELS YOU MAY TEST ALL THE TIME FRO FREE.  Remember the work MUST BE THE TYPE THE AGEBCY CAN USE.  This requires knowing your market and knowing what different agencies needs are.

For example here in Northern California the type of work that http://www.citymodel.com wants is different than what http://www.marladell.com/index2.html wants for their models. Know the difference, know your market. Don’t expect to be put on any paid shooter list until you do.

Here is the crutch, most of the work you see here online is completely inappropriate for what agencies want. It may be cool photography but if it isn’t what the agency’s can use they wont give you models for free. Pain and simple.  Nudes, bondage, art, glamour, haught couture fashion outside LA, NYC, Agency’s can’t use this stuff. You want to test with agencies shoot what agency’s want.


I'm not trying to be a smart ass or anything as usual,

Oh my god it happened.


I’ll fix the spellin later (before the spelling police bust my ass again but I’m late for dinner.

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 

Posted by Brent Burzycki: 

But some photographers aren't getting paid from them, they are just using thier models.

Posted by Fred Brown: 

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 

Posted by Brent Burzycki: 
Umm because they are getting jobs from them??

Money = believe anything..

But some photographers aren't getting paid from them, they are just using thier models.

Nothing wrong with that either. It all depends on ones purpose. If one wants to shoot models at an ad agency level then he has to be at least at a level where he's shooting models at the agency level. Otherwise they think you're just shooting girls and there is a huge difference in the eyes of the clients. Remember the ad agencies know the models because after all, they are the ones hiring them. The perception is if you are only shoot the girl next door or girls that would not get signed by model agencies then there is something that's not up to par. So shooting them for free has it's advantages depending on one's purpose.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


This looks like TFP/CD. Except, with formalities.

No, with a free test no releases are signed. It is simply that a test. The industry assumption is either party can use them for self promotion ( including the agency) but any commercial use requires a usage release.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


Just a handful of people and with them really, it's not about being right, but being competitive. They all want to herd the prettiest models over to their corner and lock down who they can shoot with. You know the deal NoyPi.

That's pretty much the definition of a internet/OMP model manger.

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 


This looks like TFP/CD. Except, with formalities.

No, with a free test no releases are signed. It is simply that a test. The industry assumption is either party can use them for self promotion ( including the agency) but any commercial use requires a usage release.

I've never had that assumption as a Freelance Photographer. I get releases signed all the time. Even for TFP.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
I've never had that assumption as a Freelance Photographer. I get releases signed all the time. Even for TFP.

I've heard that assumption, but usually only from photographers that work primarily with agency models. I'll tell you a secret: I didn't sign a release more than half of the shots I have up on MM right now.

Posted by Dan Hood: 
I’ll fix the spellin later (before the spelling police bust my ass again but I’m late for dinner.

Hmm, maybe the reading comprehension police need to come out? It wasn't about "busting" you for spelling, my explanation didn't make sense to you?

Is that sign from Hell Michigan? That's only a few miles from me

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Just a handful of people and with them really, it's not about being right, but being competitive. They all want to herd the prettiest models over to their corner and lock down who they can shoot with. You know the deal NoyPi.

That's pretty much the definition of a internet/OMP model manger.

I guess that definition crosses over to both sides of the fence. Depending on which Agency, or Manager.

Posted by theda: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
I've never had that assumption as a Freelance Photographer. I get releases signed all the time. Even for TFP.

I've heard that assumption, but usually only from photographers that work primarily with agency models. I'll tell you a secret: I didn't sign a release more than half of the shots I have up on MM right now.

Well, I get releases for two reasons. One, I'm a freelance photographer. It's what freelance photographers do. Two, I want the unfettered ability to do with the images I know will do one of two things, or both, a) make us money if image(s) are bought by an interested party, b) market our talent.

I also derive a little guilty pleasure from the record keeping.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

Posted by marksora: 

Posted by * Bisual landscapes *: 

hey Bisual landscapes,  (snicker, laughs,...)

LOL! Now I am tinking of pried Tilapia.

Posted by marksora: 
hey Bisual landscapes,  (snicker, laughs,...)

puahahaha.  wierdo.

I do not think people are insisting  they are correct but just sharing their views and work experiences.  close but I see the difference.
(goes back to check to make sure he did not act like an a-hole)

They insist once they start argueing and everyone argues, especially when it comes to me, lol.

Posted by Fred Brown: 
I can't agree with you on that one but that just depends on what your criteras for judging models are.

Oh yeah, I forgot.  This whole thread is being overtaken by the fashion police.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 
LOL! Now I am tinking of pried Tilapia.

Eww!

Posted by Dan Hood: 
Here in California there are strong rules about that.

What an agency does is say to a model here is a list of photographers who can shoot the type of work you need for your card or book and let the model purchase the work. That way there normally isn’t any kick back or anything. At least on paper. Most agencies know about what you charge and they can recommend to the model to use one photographer in particular if they really want that photographers work on this models card.

Well by golly gee, I've learned something new.  Actually, this is the first thing I've ever learned on these messageboards.

I've always wondered why models would call me up out of the blue and say they were referred by this agency and then asking me for my rates.  I always thought the agencies handled that.

Here is what you do, make an appointment with the owner or  head booker. Show them your work and tell them you want on the testing board. Here is the killer IF YOUR WORK IS THE TYPE AN AGENCY CAN USE TO MARKET THEIR MODELS YOU MAY TEST ALL THE TIME FRO FREE.  Remember the work MUST BE THE TYPE THE AGEBCY CAN USE.  This requires knowing your market and knowing what different agencies needs are.

I've had three different agencies contact me wanting to work with me.  Two I gave my contact info to, didn't hear from them for months, then out of the blue I started getting calls from random models.  I thought it was a fuckin joke at first, lol until the model paid me.  One agency I still have yet to work with.  I'm looking forward to that one.  They have hot chicks.

I think I will go and contact some agencies now.  I've always told myself that it's a waste of time.  Your reply actually makes me want to try and see if it's worth my time.

One of the companies I work for's competition hires models from an agency.  I have to find models myself.  Booking through an agency might be easier for me and they have hot chicks.

Posted by theda: 
I've heard that assumption, but usually only from photographers that work primarily with agency models. I'll tell you a secret: I didn't sign a release more than half of the shots I have up on MM right now.

So you're saying that work with an agency?  I thought agencies only work with models over 5'8?  You're like, shorter than that.

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 

I've had three different agencies contact me wanting to work with me. 

What agencies?

Posted by Dan Hood: 
What agencies?

One of them was the company that I used to scout for before I was a photographer (San Diego).  I don't even think they know I used to be a scout for them.  One is located in Hollywood and the other one is located in Las Vegas.

Stop being an agency cop, lol.  I don't trust you pigs!  I don't give references to other photographers, only models and clients when needed.

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

I've never had that assumption as a Freelance Photographer. I get releases signed all the time. Even for TFP.

I'm talking about working with reped models.

It's why agency models often don't sign releases. The agency does. That's why in this state agencies must be licensed and bonded. They have power of attorney to sign on behave of a model. That's why models turn in a voucher book. The agency releases the models likeness when the payment to the agency has been made.

Posted by Joe K. Perez:

I guess that definition crosses over to both sides of the fence. Depending on which Agency, or Manager.

No there are major differences that I'm not going to type out here.

You should read this, it's a great primmer on the world of land based agencies
It was written by the owner of NYC's oldest commercial agency.

http://www.newmodels.com

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 

Posted by Dan Hood: 
What agencies?

One of them was the company that I used to scout for before I was a photographer (San Diego).  I don't even think they know I used to be a scout for them.  One is located in Hollywood and the other one is located in Las Vegas.

Stop being an agency cop, lol.  I don't trust you pigs!  I don't give references to other photographers, only models and clients when needed.

Oh yes the mythical, nameless un verifiable, agencies that out of the blue started sending models to you with out knowing who you are, your rates, your usage, anything at all.

Oh go ahead humor us, tell us the names of the agencies that are dying to use the type of work you produce on a constant level.

Posted by Dan Hood: 
Oh yes the mythical, nameless un verifiable, agencies that out of the blue started sending models to you with out knowing who you are, your rates, your usage, anything at all.

Another photographer, and also a good friend of mind, recommended me to 2 of them, you dipshit.  Thanks for asking.

As a matter of fact, I have my girlfriend shooting for one of the agencies this coming Sunday and Monday because I'm busy.

Oh go ahead humor us, tell us the names of the agencies that are dying to use the type of work you produce on a constant level.

You could take your cocky agency eliteness and shove it up your ass. I didn't see you giving out names when I asked.

I have nothing to prove to anyone, do you?  Mister, I get my models from agencies. 

Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: 

Another photographer, and also a good friend of mind, recommended me to 2 of them, you dipshit.  Thanks for asking.

As a matter of fact, I have my girlfriend shooting for one of the agencies this coming Sunday and Monday because I'm busy.

You could take your cocky agency eliteness and shove it up your ass. I didn't see you giving out names when I asked.

I have nothing to prove to anyone, do you?  Mister, I get my models from agencies. 

Sigh........I am so sorry I took the time out of my day to give you some info. To actually take time out to type up some info you could use. I will never make that mistake again.

Posted by Dan Hood: 
Sigh........I am so sorry I took the time out of my day to give you some info. To actually take time out to type up some info you could use. I will never make that mistake again.

And I thanked you for that time.  Too bad you just had to end up being a dick.

Posted by Industrial Deco: 
In my area, EVERY agency I have talked to has been just a photomill and a school scam.

Self management is the way to go.

I meet alot of models from Ohio. They tend to go the bigger markets for representation. For instance, alot of girls are rep'd by Elite and Ford Chicago that live in Ohio and other surrounding areas.

Posted by Fred Brown: 
KM - I've always been a fan of your accomplished portfolio but have not heard your words of wisdom. Very well put, very well indeed. It's great to see a model actually understand the business.

So when do the doors of KM Model Management open?

(chuckle) he he, well not yet. First I've got to become established enough to have clients come to me

Posted by Dan Hood: 

Posted by Joe K. Perez: 

I've never had that assumption as a Freelance Photographer. I get releases signed all the time. Even for TFP.

I'm talking about working with reped models.

It's why agency models often don't sign releases. The agency does. That's why in this state agencies must be licensed and bonded. They have power of attorney to sign on behave of a model. That's why models turn in a voucher book. The agency releases the models likeness when the payment to the agency has been made. 

Let me rephrase...the context was the assumption testing photographers and agency had about image usage for self-promotion, etc.

I u-n-d-e-r-stand. It's common sense that if I were a photographer on Agency A's list of approved photographers, and testing with one, or more of their models, I understand that a model release (for my purposes) is not required. I understand that model is from Agency A and that our testing is for model's and agency's behalf. Therefore, whether I was a freelance photographer, or not, I would not be in a position to require a model release.

Although, I never shot for an agency, it doesn't take rocket science and a degree for me to figure out that in my relationship with an agency, certain etiquettes and policies have to be followed.