Posted by theda: 

Posted by Aperture Photographics: 

Posted by Joe Kozlowski: 
The model feedback on this one is stunning so far ... 

I'd also like to see SOME model feedback on this question. 

Models don't talk!

Yes, you may not see any difference between sheer and nude, but Gary and Eric pretty much nailed it: other people do. If that's what the models feels confortable with, that's what she feel comfortable with.

And Doug, I'm one of those models that does lingerie (and full nides for that matter) but not swimwear. I'm so white you can see through me. That works fine for lingerie, but not so much for a bikini.

.....

hahahahahahaha and i thought i was pale!

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
Ok what is it with SOME models???? Are they actually thinking? Here's what Im talkin about.

Oh I don't do topless or any nudes. But look at their profile and there they are in sheer tops and bottoms or fishnet tops/bottoms displaying all the goods. WTF is the difference? Does some completly see through top make any difference????? Sheesh, buy a clue!

OK Rant over.

Up to the person and their comfort level really.

Posted by AshleyDanielle: 
This catagory is a tough one to say what you will do and won't do. You could spend a day typing out I will do this but not that. Who's going to bother reading it all lol

A professional looking for a professional. People who don't read everything pertaining to the type of work a potential photographer / model does may not be a person to work with. What I do usually ignore for the most part are the parts about how many cats they have, that they have a bf/husband... 4 brothers and how much they love their mother. Absolutly irrelevant. Or that they have this degree and that degree.... Doesn't really have anything to do with the watch ad we're shooting now does it? =o)

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
I feel this is a comfort level of the model. If she feels more secure in wearing what you stated then so be it. It's not what you want in a model then move on. If she doesn't feel comfortable standing there naked, half naked then that's her right.

I think you as well as many others have missed the entire point. The question is still what's the difference? And why not state that rather than I DONT show myself....

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
I hear this constantly on here people putting others down because they will do this work but not that work. It's a Choice and their right to exclude anything that doesn't make them feel good or comfortable.

Wasn't putting anyone down. Simply making the point that exposed is exposed. So why state that they don't do something when in fact its advertised that they do it. That whole a rose philosophy.

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
There's enough models and choices online to get what you need without putting others down for stating their limitations.

Yup the point was TOTALLY missed.

Posted by Doug Swinskey: 

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
Ok what is it with SOME models???? Are they actually thinking? Here's what Im talkin about.

Oh I don't do topless or any nudes. But look at their profile and there they are in sheer tops and bottoms or fishnet tops/bottoms displaying all the goods. WTF is the difference? Does some completly see through top make any difference????? Sheesh, buy a clue!

OK Rant over.

its a message directed at you alone..they'll pose nude for me, but not you...jk...

i personally love a model that will shoot in lingerie but not swimwear...

oh this is fun... I know of a certain "model manager" that tried to talk her models into posing nude, but claimed that if they wore the little nude colored pasties, that they were not really naked... my reply to this ridiculous notion was, "If one is walking down the street with just flesh colored pasties on - believe me - the police will pick one up for indecent exposure (ie. being naked).  If a man sees a woman wearing nothing but pasties, he doesn't think, hmmm...she's 'insuinated naked' - no he's thinking, she's naked!"

Posted by theda: 
I've gone out in sheer tops (hello headlights!), but not completely topless. There is enough of a difference to me that I'll do and not the other. 

Perception, again. Others might not see it that way, but FOR YOU, there's enough of a difference to make it a critical difference.

Since the model is the one making the decision in regard to this, their perception of what's OK and what's not OK is extremely important. Not that of the photographer or anyone else.

(If they claim they'll do or not do something, though, that's an entirely different issue. One that should be resolved before the session starts.)

Posted by DJ Foothill: 

Posted by AshleyDanielle: 
This catagory is a tough one to say what you will do and won't do. You could spend a day typing out I will do this but not that. Who's going to bother reading it all lol

A professional looking for a professional. People who don't read everything pertaining to the type of work a potential photographer / model does may not be a person to work with. What I do usually ignore for the most part are the parts about how many cats they have, that they have a bf/husband... 4 brothers and how much they love their mother. Absolutly irrelevant. Or that they have this degree and that degree.... Doesn't really have anything to do with the watch ad we're shooting now does it? =o)

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
I feel this is a comfort level of the model. If she feels more secure in wearing what you stated then so be it. It's not what you want in a model then move on. If she doesn't feel comfortable standing there naked, half naked then that's her right.

I think you as well as many others have missed the entire point. The question is still what's the difference? And why not state that rather than I DONT show myself....

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
I hear this constantly on here people putting others down because they will do this work but not that work. It's a Choice and their right to exclude anything that doesn't make them feel good or comfortable.

Wasn't putting anyone down. Simply making the point that exposed is exposed. So why state that they don't do something when in fact its advertised that they do it. That whole a rose philosophy.

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
There's enough models and choices online to get what you need without putting others down for stating their limitations.

Yup the point was TOTALLY missed.

Putting what you are good at, what your accomplishments are can and have landed people jobs. Watch? well maybe not a watch add. Maybe someone that works with animals or loves animals is exactly what a photographer needs where the client wants animals in a shoot. (per your example)
A resume or what ever you post gives a background of what you can do, also your limitations in what you feel you can and can't handle. That is each of our rights.

And.. I do have a comprehension of the english language and I understood the question quite well thank you.

Posted by eric: 
I was simply giving an opinion on why you are very frustrated with models. To me its cut and dry; they are showing you one thing, but then telling you, you can't have it (when you are used to having it)

There's no "out of context" its all the same context. Based on the images you have chosen (here) to represent your work as an artist, I assume that a majority of the type of work you do is nude. Having said that, it would make sense that you would be aggravated to see the portfolio of a hot new model online, see sexy shots of her, Then read the fine print to see that she won't do nudes, which is what you wanted to do with her.

It really isn't a matter of frustration. It was an observation. And a statement of how people need to be specific in things. As I've said. Doesn't matter to me. I always find who I need to fulfill the needed material. No big deal. It doesn't matter to me really about what she doesn't do. If I want to shoot with someone I shoot what they are comfortable with nothing more nothing less. Never get frustrated or upset by a persons limits. Never personal. ALWAYS busuness.

Also, never assume that the obvious is truly what it is. I shoot all kinds of thing. Just find shooting adult more often than not actually tends to be a lot less hastle.

Posted by eric:
PS The world is filled with false and deceptive advertising. Does the Big Mac you buy at McDonalds look like the one on the sign?

McDonalds actually got sued for this. So can we sue the models too.... he he he.

Posted by eric:
Your original point was not missed by anyone—It was about models showing one thing, but then saying you can't have it. We all got it.

Trust me the point was missed by MANY. But with your explanation now I see that you are one of the few who got it.

Reese, you hit the nail right on the head.

But the question still stands. What is the difference between having no top on, and having a top on that is completly see through and skin tight? That is and has been the question all along.

Has nothing to do with a person's limits or the retoric of "find another model." (No kidding) Just simply what's the difference?

Posted by AshleyDanielle: 
Putting what you are good at, what your accomplishments are can and have landed people jobs. Watch? well maybe not a watch add. Maybe someone that works with animals or loves animals is exactly what a photographer needs where the client wants animals in a shoot. (per your example)

Are you serious? Knowing how many modeling schools a person went to or how many pets they have doesn't make them a consideration for a job. Heck I can pull just about anyone off the street not knowing a thing about them and have them looking like a professional.

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
A resume or what ever you post gives a background of what you can do, also your limitations in what you feel you can and can't handle. That is each of our rights.

Listing work experience maybe. Not how much you love your significant other. Event listing previous work experience doesn't make a person good at what they did. We're in the business of appearance. And the number one question is can this person LOOK the part.

You may have understood the question but you didn't actually answer it. What's the difference?

Posted by DJ Foothill: 

Posted by AshleyDanielle: 
Putting what you are good at, what your accomplishments are can and have landed people jobs. Watch? well maybe not a watch add. Maybe someone that works with animals or loves animals is exactly what a photographer needs where the client wants animals in a shoot. (per your example)

Are you serious? Knowing how many modeling schools a person went to or how many pets they have doesn't make them a consideration for a job. Heck I can pull just about anyone off the street not knowing a thing about them and have them looking like a professional.

Posted by AshleyDanielle:
A resume or what ever you post gives a background of what you can do, also your limitations in what you feel you can and can't handle. That is each of our rights.

Listing work experience maybe. Not how much you love your significant other. Event listing previous work experience doesn't make a person good at what they did. We're in the business of appearance. And the number one question is can this person LOOK the part.

You may have understood the question but you didn't actually answer it. What's the difference?

I did list my point of view on your question. You don't like my answer well that's fine lol

It sounds to me by this response you just consider a model just a photo. We are more then a photo. We are represenatives for what ever company we shoot for. We are spokesmodels. We promote what ever job we are being paid to promote. Our experiences and our background do come into effect when we take on the jobs. If they did not, they would not ask for the information.

I won't keep arguing the point with you because I'm not giving you the answer you want. I am intitled to my response to your question though and I'll leave it at that.

Posted by Angie Rae: 
I totally agree! Haha, I know this model who's motto is "Putting new standards in non-nude modeling", and on her banner, has a REALLY short mini-skirt on with her shirt pulled up just below her nipples...okey dokey! Might as well just take it all off. When you have your ass crack and most of your boobs showing in almost all of your pictures...and say you're setting standards in non-nude modeling...haha...I would expect you'd be wearing a little bit more than that. 

LOL.... I KNOW what you mean... I run several NN sites and actually they do VERY well.... And they are the MOST guilty of this whole Im not nude but you can see EVERYTHING I have to offer. But this see through fabric makes me not nude.... LOL

Yeah Cover your eyes so the bad guys can't see you wearing all black while sitting in the middle of an otherwise empty white room syndrome.

Posted by sibyl: 
should all models outline everything they do or do not do? So I suspose it would only be fair for all photographers online to post all types of work they do as well?

In the general sense YES they should. It's about being very clear about the conditions. Because that's what it boils down to. Conditions. And yes it would be just as fair for photographers to do the same. I know many photographers who do nudes but don't post them in their books, or in this case profiles. But they also don't say they DON'T do it when they do.

Posted by sibyl: 
If a model has nudes posted and then tells you she doesn't do them..most likely she felt comfortable with that particular photographer..you shoudn't take offense or get frustrated. 

For instance your profile Sibyl. You say NO nudes but what's the first pic? Boobies =o) So why not simply say that a model / photographer only shoots nudes with certain people. How difficult is it to be clear and up front?   

And as for being offended or frustrated you possibly have't read the entire thread. I don't CARE about a model's limits. If I have a project that requires nudity I have no use for a model who claims not to do it so I don't waste my time, and I find one of the thousands who do. But then again that really isn't the issue.

Posted by sibyl: 
It's silly to list everything you will or will not do..that's why you contact the model and inquire...to list all those don'ts just makes a model look fussy and difficult to work with which could lead to a loss of opportunities.

Is it really? Or is that more practical for all parties involved. Honesty is never being difficult. Just state it. Only shoot nudes with certain photographers / models whatever. Nothing silly about that.

Posted by sibyl: 
As for shooting sheers instead of full frontal nudity..perhaps they feel it's sexy with a hint of modesty to it... You can post non nudes pics with part of your breasts hanging out and in booty shorts and not have to worry about an 18 and over crowd..that's why.Maybe the model wants to have a "tease" look and not a fully blown nude..to each his own!

Ummm if I can see everything then it isn't really a tease now is it?

Posted by sibyl: 
Regardless, if the model doesn't feel like shooting full nudes but will do sheer topless it is her choice and her drawing a line..if you don't respect that..I'm sure you can find other models to suit your needs...and frankly as soon as you post you do nudes you have horde of GWC's on your ass looking to do it for tfp.

Im so glad you like so many others schooled me on that point because in all the time I've been doing this I wouldn't have figured it out otherwise. Sheesh.

For instance your profile Sibyl. You say NO nudes but what's the first pic? Boobies =o) So why not simply say that a model / photographer only shoots nudes with certain people. How difficult is it to be clear and up front?

Do you know the difference between nude and topless?? There is nothing wrong with that shot and what i specfied on my profile..nice try but no cigar..and the fact that you called them "BOOBIES" is a statement to your maturity level. I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T DO TOPLESS..I SAID I don't do nudes...  learn to read the fine print more carefully. and actually that pic was done as a favor to a photographer friend of mine who wanted a tribute to soME of the shots done by herb ritts of christy turlington..I obligied..

And as for being offended or frustrated you possibly have't read the entire thread. I don't CARE about a model's limits. If I have a project that requires nudity I have no use for a model who claims not to do it so I don't waste my time, and I find one of the thousands who do. But then again that really isn't the issue.

I DID READ THE ENTIRE THREAD..and the fact that you DON'T CARE about a model's limits or comfort level speaks volumes about you as a photographer in the professional sense.... you say you can find so many models to do nudity and you don't waste your time with ones that don't..than why are you hear bitching
about it models who state it and don't do it? get over it and move on.

Is it really? Or is that more practical for all parties involved. Honesty is never being difficult. Just state it. Only shoot nudes with certain photographers / models whatever. Nothing silly about that.

Is it too much effort to write an email inquirying about it?? THEY AREN'T LYING...they just choose to do with whom they feel like doing nudes with..what's your problem? why can't you get that?

Posted by sibyl: 
As for shooting sheers instead of full frontal nudity..perhaps they feel it's sexy with a hint of modesty to it... You can post non nudes pics with part of your breasts hanging out and in booty shorts and not have to worry about an 18 and over crowd..that's why.Maybe the model wants to have a "tease" look and not a fully blown nude..to each his own!

Ummm if I can see everything then it isn't really a tease now is it?

*** I was talking about the partial top and booty shorts in reference to the tease look..read it again...

Posted by sibyl: 
Regardless, if the model doesn't feel like shooting full nudes but will do sheer topless it is her choice and her drawing a line..if you don't respect that..I'm sure you can find other models to suit your needs...and frankly as soon as you post you do nudes you have horde of GWC's on your ass looking to do it for tfp.

"Im so glad you like so many others schooled me on that point because in all the time I've been doing this I wouldn't have figured it out otherwise. Sheesh.

"

hey don't post a rant if you don't want responses...

Posted by sibyl: 
Do you know the difference between nude and topless?? There is nothing wrong with that shot and what i specfied on my profile..nice try but no cigar..

What's the difference? Let me see... ummmm to the letter of the law as Reece mentioned earlier there is NONE!

Posted by sibyl:
and the fact that you called them "BOOBIES" is a statement to your maturity level. I NEVER SAID I DIDN'T DO TOPLESS..I SAID I don't do nudes...  learn to read the fine print more carefully. and actually that pic was done as a favor to a photographer friend of mine who wanted a tribute to soME of the shots done by herb ritts of christy turlington..I obligied..

Really? That was a testiment to maturity? Or maybe I just like the word BOOBIES. Maybe it was levity. MAYBE it was used for any number of reasons. Read the fine print... hmmmmm that's the part I missed in my contract law class.

Posted by sibyl:  I DID READ THE ENTIRE THREAD..and the fact that you DON'T CARE about a model's limits or comfort level speaks volumes about you as a photographer in the professional sense....

OK so you can read. Maybe then you need to work on your comprehension then. Because what I said is that I don't care about a model's limitations because it doesn't matter to me and I can and do work within their limits.

Posted by sibyl:
you say you can find so many models to do nudity and you don't waste your time with ones that don't..than why are you hear bitching about it models who state it and don't do it? get over it and move on.

I don't just SAY that I can. I have and do. DAILY honey. For the last 9 years. But thank you for reminding me not to bitch that some choose to send mixed signals rather than being honest. I forgot that in today's society honesty and integrity are not rewarded but frowned down upon. Also again thank you for letting me know about the find another model who'll do whatever... Actually I think it is YOU who doesn't get it.

Posted by sibyl:  Is it too much effort to write an email inquirying about it?? THEY AREN'T LYING...they just choose to do with whom they feel like doing nudes with..what's your problem? why can't you get that?

Actually yes if I am doing a quick search it is. I shouldn't have to waste time asking a model what she actually will do. I should be able to tell at a glance. Point blank. Which is why I don't take these online things seriously. Usually if I need to shoot I call one of the numerous agencies where ever I happen to be and tell them what I need and get an entire list of everyone who works within those parameters.

Posted by sibyl: 
*** I was talking about the partial top and booty shorts in reference to the tease look..read it again...

I was talking about the sheer stuff now wasn't I?

Posted by sibyl:  hey don't post a rant if you don't want responses...

I have no problems with responses. I have a problem with useless responses.

Posted by DJ Foothill: 
Ok what is it with SOME models???? Are they actually thinking? Here's what Im talkin about.

Oh I don't do topless or any nudes. But look at their profile and there they are in sheer tops and bottoms or fishnet tops/bottoms displaying all the goods. WTF is the difference? Does some completly see through top make any difference????? Sheesh, buy a clue!

OK Rant over.

To answer this question, IMO, there is no difference.

Posted by theda:But if I ran around bottomless, the MAN would come down on me.

hmmmmmmmm...double entendre?

Posted by chapa: 

Posted by theda:But if I ran around bottomless, the MAN would come down on me.

hmmmmmmmm...double entendre?

Certainly not!

Now if I'd said go down... um...

Posted by theda: 

Posted by chapa: 

Posted by theda:But if I ran around bottomless, the MAN would come down on me.

hmmmmmmmm...double entendre?

Certainly not!

Now if I'd said go down... um...

just sayin'...

Posted by theda: 
clarifying you don't do FULL nudity would be prudent.

I agree that saying you don't do nudes when you in fact DO (if only sparingly and selectively) is lying. 

Clarifying... FINALLY! Yes that is the entire point. Be CLEAR in what is going on. I don't think that is too much to ask.

Posted by ChelseaVision: 
I dont mind doing nudes, but I'd first want to get a feel for the photographer and how proffesional they act about it.

Very true. But comfort level wasn't the issue. The issue was pretty much why not be CLEAR about that. Rather than saying ONE thing and showing another. And BTW you do incredible work with your tripod. Maybe you have a second calling. Nice site BTW.

Posted by sibyl: 
dude you just like to hear yourself talk it seems.. blab on...knock yourself out!!! I have better things to do than waste my time on a wall like you... and since you have agency girls banging on your door to work with you *rolls eyes* I'm sure you do too...

You're sure huh? Is that the BEST you could do? Listen sweet cheeks, it is very possible that I shoot more in a day than you do in a week. Like yesterday. Did 4 shoots, and shot two scenes for a video. What all did you do yesterday? Next week I start production on a music video that I was HIRED to direct. The following week I head out for the next 5 months to shoot for a major national magazine. What will YOU be doing for the next 5 months?

Oh and Honey. In most cases agencies don't bang on the doors of photographers. Usually it's the other way around. Though I do have a few who like to send their new girls to shoot with me first. I wonder why that might be.

Small tip darlin'. Never question the integrity of someone you know absolutly NOTHING about sweetheart. Doing so could make you look like a fool.

Posted by ChelseaVision: 
I dont mind doing nudes, but I'd first want to get a feel for the photographer and how proffesional they act about it. Also, almost every photographer who has contacted me for shoots wants to do just nudes. I will do nudes, but that's not all I ever want to do! I'd like to do a variety of different styles. Maybe that's how other models who write that feel?

Fair enough. But you aren't saying that you don't do them so don't ask but have them in your profile. Or are you? LOL

That is the issue. Its one thing to have done nudes and state that you don't do them for just anyone who asks and another thing to state that you don't do them so don't ask but have them in your portfolio. That's just stuck on stupid. Because obviously you do/have. Don't sell something that is out of production is the point.

Posted by KristenMarie: 
I think that many models make decisions  based on their comfort level with a photographer and the time and place. Maybe the model doesnt want to have photographers constantly sending emails to them asking to nudes , maybe the model decides on her own when she is comfortable to try something. just a thought. I myself have set a standard not to do nudes, topless, sheer, ect... and I stick by that as you can see from some of my pictures. I dont mind revealing a little bit, but I wont show the goods... thats just as my comfort level and I think that its sexier to show less... less is more in my opinion. But anyways... I think a photographer should respect a models decision.... theres plenty of different models out there, for different projects. 

I totally agree with you!   If you do want to do nudes, you should not do them with someone you don't feel comfortable with, and if you don't want to do nudes, then just be clear in saying so.  Don't let anyone make you feel guilty for setting your limits.

Posted by ChelseaVision: 
I dont mind doing nudes, but I'd first want to get a feel for the photographer and how proffesional they act about it. Also, almost every photographer who has contacted me for shoots wants to do just nudes. I will do nudes, but that's not all I ever want to do! I'd like to do a variety of different styles. Maybe that's how other models who write that feel?

You're absolutely right about wanting to feel comfortable with the photographer before you agree to do nudes.  And for making sure that you get what you want out of the shoot as well.  If all a photographer wants to shoot is nudes, then as long as you're comfortable with him or her, then ask to be paid, unless you get the variety out of the shoot that your'e looking for.

Posted by theda: 
I think DJ Foothill is you should just try not being full of shit. I'm inclined to agree.

Or I would be, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to have opinions anymore.

Excuse me? What have I said that is full of shit? Is the point not valid? It has nothing to do with comfort level it has everything to do with being upfront with intent. What is full of shit about that?

Posted by theda: 
Errr... I was agreeing with you. It should have read "I think DJ Foothill is saying you should just try not being full of shit. I'm inclined to agree." See? Agreement. Not calling you full of shit. I think faster than I type. Thank god.

LMAO.... funny... I think you experienced Keyboard malfunction. Glad we got that cleared up. =o)