|
Forums >
General Industry >
Photographers, do you check model references?
Good morning Mayhemmers, I posed this question on the most recent TFP/CD woes thread, but it got lost in the discussion, and I'm really curious. Every model I know checks a photographer's references before committing to work with him or her. I've avoided a couple of potential problem areas by doing so, and I'm really glad I did. Photographers, do you do the same thing? There is so much consistent inconvenience caused by no-show models that it seems some make a habit of it. Do you check with other photographers that a model has worked with before setting something up? I wonder if y'all couldn't avoid the models who make a habit of such behaviors by doing so. What do you think? May 27 05 12:09 pm Link I actually have on a few occasions, only when I had invested a lot of time or money into a TFP shoot, equipment costs, studio rental, a makeup artist, etc. Then I will def check to make sure that they are reliable. If I am just doing it for fun, then I usually have several backup models. May 27 05 12:11 pm Link I'm interested in the responses to this thread, too! I've long wondered what kinds of things photogs pass on to each other about models they have worked with. May 27 05 12:12 pm Link Posted by veester: dont ask...you dont want to know... May 27 05 12:34 pm Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: Posted by veester: dont ask...you dont want to know... LOL, Sounds like another way of saying "Be afraid, be very afraid!" May 27 05 12:45 pm Link Posted by Shyly: I'm sorry, but I don't conversate with the enemy. May 27 05 12:47 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Shyly: I'm sorry, but I don't conversate with the enemy. Do you converse with the enemy? May 27 05 12:49 pm Link It's hard to check references for new models which is what I usually work with. The models I work with several times, I am their first photographer so I already know how they are. Also, when model stands me up I let him/her know that it's not professional and that I have other models waiting to work with me who actually show up and then give them one more change. If they stand me up a second time I don't work with them unless they pay me and give me half the fee (non-refundable) to reserve their time-slot. When I have a paying job, I only contact models I have worked with before and who are reliable. Also, those are the only models I recommend when other photographers ask me if I know a model who would be god for whatever they're working on. May 27 05 12:58 pm Link The modeling/photography world is a closer knit circle than many outside of it would think. The models make their rounds with all the photographers, the photographers do the same with the models, models talk to each other, photographers talk to each other, and there is an extensive grapevine network going on. People within the circle will often know of each other even if it is by reputation only. As usual, bad things spread like wildfire (people generally prefer to complain than praise when they gossip). Within the circle people live and die by reputation, so the smart ones (both models and photographers) go to great lengths to keep a good reputation. If you are someone new to the scene and no one has heard of you before (applies to both photographers and models), that's when the red flag goes up, even if it is just to say you are an unknown quantity. This is where some new models make their biggest mistakes. Some models (who may actually have what it takes to succeed) only want to take well-paying jobs for editorial fashion or commercial print, and they don't realize it will never happen on a first shoot from the internet because they are an unknown quantity. These shoots require lots of logistics with a number of people involved, and the risk of a no-show is unnacceptable. The reality for photographers who try to book new models through the internet sites (it doesn't matter wether it's for paid or tfp work) is they have a 50-50 chance of the model showing up. For this reason, a new model will never get any serious work until she has proven herself to be reliable. Having said that, I work with new models from the internet all the time, but the first shoots are mostly just to test out the reliability of a model. All the serious work goes to the models who have proven their reliability with their track record. Personally, I don't check references because I stay in a continuous cyle of testing new models who I think I can use in my commercial work. The models who get the good jobs are the ones who I know through experience are 100% reliable (unless the client provides the talent). Here is a big tip for new models who are not with a good agency: get out and network with the photographers in your area who book commercial work, and try to get them to do test shoots with you. Once they know you, they may choose to work with you even if you are not represented. You will also learn your craft in the process. May 27 05 02:57 pm Link I have not but I will in the future. =======warning Mark's normal blah, blah, blah below. ======  o not read if you cannot read Mumble or have a headache. Keeping this conversation in reference to the internet. I am new to the net world of the people from the land of TF.... I have never cast a model for a job unless I have met the model in person first. I try to do the same for other Test/tf shoots as well. I like to meet the people first to discuss and see that the photoshop is not excessive. Most jobs are cast by someone else anyway. It has happened that I did not meet models first to shoot. I was not stood up for the shoot but one model did not show/call to meet to see the pictures twice. Called two days later and then my computer was down for a long time so she has to wait, not my fault. Long story to say. I have not in the past but I may in the future. On the issues of references that I give. I do not give out phone numbers of models that I have worked with. I can point you to tear sheets, personel references, and numbers and addresses of companies in NY with a door to walk into so that you can meet a living breathing person where the whole office will know who I am. I do not list my phone number but give it out if you wish to meet with me and it is logical to do so. Full name and other information is given then. Some may argue with this but it makes me comfortable. I do not see the logic why someone in California needs my phone number if I live in NY. My name is on my portfolio and I can give you the dates and issues of some tear sheets to look up yourself at the library. Not fake tears that I printed up myself but real ones. PS I think tears are of questionable value and most of my best work is not in magazines. PPS. I have been stood up by an agency in the past with no call for the model got a big job and I was forgotten. May 27 05 03:02 pm Link For me it's primarily a matter of intuition, and I mostly get relatively serious inquiries anyway, if you've looked at my website you know why. I've got to agree with Jim's comment about there being an extensive grapevine, I hear a lot from other photographers and from models, and certainly I try to pass on my good experiences to others. The grapevine is a mixed thing, recently I heard some negatives about a photographer I've met and had a good impression of myself; the negatives came from an inexperienced model who had heard them from some other model... when I asked around, I heard nothing but good about him from experienced models who had actually worked with him. That's why I take things with a grain of salt unless I hear them from someone I know and respect and who has actually worked with the person in question. So I guess that's my answer; if there's doubt I might talk to a couple of people, but usually I follow my intuition the same way I would if hiring someone for a full time job. It works so far, only two no-shows in seven years, although I've scared several away after the first e-mail contact. Better that than after investing a lot of time. May 27 05 03:21 pm Link I find out everything i can from anybody i can.. But the problem is who do you belive? Well i like this site for the insight it gives on the crowd... I have now found alot of people i would never want to meet Or shoot!! And also alot i want to work with ,, This site is so cool May 27 05 03:32 pm Link Posted by XtremeArtists ®: Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: Posted by Shyly: I'm sorry, but I don't conversate with the enemy. Do you converse with the enemy? You totally beat me to that one. May 27 05 03:33 pm Link Based on the original question asked in this thread, I find it very important to check on referances with everyone I work with. There might be some acceptions to the rule. For example, If there is a new model out there who needs someone to help her get started, I may go forward to help that model out, despite any experience she might have. I will give him or her the benefit of the doubt. If for some chance they blow it by being a no show, then I may not aproach them again. With more experienced models, there is plenty I look at outside of the way they look in front of the camera. Main thing being, their reliability. I think that I can speak for all photographers in saying we want someone who is on time. I will go forth and ask for referances if I have an idea who shot the model before. I will ask questions, such as are they on time for shoots, were their any complications, etc ? Another thing I consider is WHAT type of work has this model done before. If by chance she has worked in porn, I would strongly reconsider working with that person. Not that I don't aprove of nudity or wouldn't consider doing nudes, but actual sex acts on film is not a venue on where I want my work to be displayed. I like to keep my work tasteful, and respectable. Especially if I am going to show my work to potentail clients. Touching base ont he TFP factor. Theyre are some things to consider with models when they agree to a shoot. One, if they are offered payed shoots that would take place during the scheduled day, then i understand that may take precidence. Only thing I ask is if they have to cancel, then please pay me the courtesy of letting me know in advance. That goes the same for any other personal obligation that may come up. If they are a no show, then forget about it. I am not going to give them the time of day again. And they can forget about any referances from me. May 27 05 05:05 pm Link I've never checked a model's references first. If I like her look and I think she can pose I say yes, if not, I say no. Besides, I can think of two times when I had a lousy time with a model, afterwards i talked to other photogs she'd worked with and they all said "You had a bad experience with her, she's great what happened?" So checking before wouldn't have meant anything. It's just model-photog chemistry. May 27 05 05:10 pm Link "Photographers, do you check model references?" Sometimes. Not often. Only if the internal sirens go off. I've had pretty much positive experiences, too. May 27 05 05:15 pm Link Posted by XtremeArtists ®: Yeah, I don't do that either. lol May 28 05 04:58 am Link I know we should, seeing how models check up on us. Probably would have saved me some trouble with this one crazed sicko chick had I listened to the girl she was stalking. But I know the reasons behind it, models checking references. A lot of women live their lives in awareness that they might be attacked, so working with a freelance photographer, that's just being cautious. May 29 05 07:43 am Link If you are paying for a model's travel expenses for a shoot- HELL YES, YOU BETTER ASK FOR REFERENCES. And get a signed travel agreement in place. Just a thought. Jun 08 05 07:05 pm Link Posted by Geoff H: Geoff, may I ask what a travel agreement is? I've only ever shot locally, so this is a new thing for me! Jun 08 05 07:12 pm Link I've checked references before. It's never a bad thing. Jun 08 05 07:45 pm Link actually, i dont check references..i take deposits..i dont care if the model dont show...if its for a commercial client, i go through my local agency..if the model dont show..theres another comming asap...and the no-show..wont get work again.. Jun 08 05 07:48 pm Link I ask photographers who I "know" (either really know, or have met) who have shot with a particular model if everything went well. They also ask me and I always give an honest answer - sort of like if someone calls you for a job reference. I've also asked other models about models that they personally know and/or have shot with... But never in the pursuit of gossip - always professionally and in the spirit of attempting to work together. Why wouldn't one? Photographers have top know that people talk. As should models. This isn't a game for most of us (I hope) and professionalism and my reputation still matter - at least to me... So anyone that wants to do a TFP - wait, scratch that... Jun 08 05 08:03 pm Link I've wondered this myself if was even appropiate to contact a photographer that has done shoots, just to ask stuff like "how was she, any thing I should watch out for, etc?" But then again, I can see possilby the same thing being asked model to model about a photographer. Jun 08 05 08:03 pm Link If it's a paid gig for the model, then yes, yes and yes. If she was sent from an agency, then I know that I do not need to bother as I know the folks from the agency and if she fails to show, then chances are, she just screwed herself...For TFCD shoots...I ask around a little bit or see if she has worked with other photographers and might send out an email or two, but as already stated, most TFCD models do not have any experience, so there is nothing to check on. Jun 08 05 08:19 pm Link Okay...who's been talking about me ????!!!!???? Jun 08 05 08:27 pm Link Posted by Shyly: Honestly? If I were single and getting into an intimate relationship with a model, then I'd worry and do my background checks. But, since I'm married and don't fool around, I'm more worried what my psycho wife would do to a psycho model who showed up at my door and threatened me. Eeek! Godzilla versus Rodan! Jun 08 05 08:30 pm Link When I get rude emails from models I start checking Jun 08 05 10:07 pm Link Geoff, may I ask what a travel agreement is? I've only ever shot locally, so this is a new thing for me! Okay, if a model asks a photographer pays for any travel expenses (plane and hotel), the model signs a form which includes the scheduled date of the shoot, location and compensation. Jun 09 05 08:34 am Link 30% of large corporate companies don't even check references... Jun 09 05 10:09 am Link If you have to check models references then you really need to perhaps think of getting another job that does not require photographing people. Perhaps in a bank or an insurance company maybe... Decisions are based on what they LOOK like ....nothing more and nothing less..... and besides you OPTION at least another model in case your first choice does not show up if you are booking via sites like this one... and double besides only a FOOL photographer would ever book any fashion model he had not met in the flesh before hand. Model references....give me a break...the only reference a model needs is what she looks like in front of the camera. Jun 11 05 06:20 pm Link ALWAYS! When there`s a $60,000 Corvette and $1,000 worth of vintage clothes and props used on a shoot I have NO time to waste on anyone......that`s just facts, I check ALL models who I`ve never worked with  Cheers Tom Jun 11 05 06:41 pm Link Posted by KoolGirlieStuff: and when the "checked" models car breaks down, or plane gets diverted, or boyfriend pulls a wobbly, or grandmother dies....who drives the corvette then?? Checking model references does not cover you in any way and is an enormous waste of time. as well as instantly creating an air of mistrust which ..with models being as self sensitve as they are...is always a bad road to head down. Jun 11 05 06:59 pm Link Posted by *!photofashion!*: Posted by KoolGirlieStuff: and when the "checked" models car breaks down, or plane gets diverted, or boyfriend pulls a wobbly, or grandmother dies....who drives the corvette then?? Checking model references does not cover you in any way and is an enormous waste of time. as well as instantly creating an air of mistrust which ..with models being as self sensitve as they are...is always a bad road to head down. Hummm well I have to say I disagree with you, I`ve saved precious time with "knowing" before I shoot who`s who in this BIZ........I`ve had VERY few "flakes" in the past few years,(and the SELF SENSITIVE models need to go back to the restaurant and wait tables, modeling is NO business for the weak hearted) *and BOYFRIEND pulls a wobbly....that`s funny she`s IN THE WRONG BUSINESS* Jun 11 05 07:25 pm Link Posted by Reese: did you know that 87.345% of all statisitcs are made up on the spot? Jun 11 05 07:37 pm Link Posted by Doug Swinskey: Posted by Reese: did you know that 87.345% of all statisitcs are made up on the spot? and only 43.7% of them are accurate Jun 11 05 07:54 pm Link References are kind of pointless... both in terms of modeling, and in the 'real' world. Who's going to give you the name and number of anyone who WOULDN'T say great things about them?!? Shyly, if you avoided problems with a couple of photographers by checking wih references THEY provided you, then they are certainly idiots! Nonetheless, all the better you stayed away from them then! : D Jun 11 05 08:34 pm Link Posted by Thomas Oed: Thomas, this cracked me up! And you make an excellent point. To be fair, I should've been more specific. In those cases it was due to following up with models via the "worked with" feature of OMP, rather than the photographer pointing me to them. Jun 12 05 01:11 am Link Yep. I ask about attitude and timeliness above most all else. Jun 12 05 01:23 am Link References total depend on the experience of the model. As far as rumors, I wouldn't consider anyone who takes rumors into consideration a professional. Jun 12 05 01:29 am Link |
