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"Will work TFP with talented photographers ONLY"
I'm often amused when i read statements like this. First question that comes to my mind is, "who decides if the photographer is talented?" I assume the answer is the model herself, i.e., the model who will only work with "talented photographers," Aside from the fact that many models who work TFP are somewhat inexperienced and are looking to develop their ports, I wonder how those models come to believe they can judge the technical and artistic merits of photographers? A quick look at said model's portfolio kind-of tells me if the model is in any way qualified to distinguish a "talented photographer" from an idiot with a point-and-shoot. If most of her images suck, I have to assume her skill at choosing "talented photographers" leaves something to be desired. Or perhaps there was a time--when those particular images were captured--that the model was unable to judge a photographer's worth but, now, she is able to do so with a trained, critical eye. (Note: I believe I am--to some degree--qualified to make an informed decision as to most photographers's skills. But that's based on more years than i care to mention shooting cameras... make that getting paid to shoot cameras. Some of you, of course, might disagree. If so, okay... that's your right to do so.) So I guess I'll pose a question since that what's often done in forums such as this: "What makes you, Ms. Model, truly believe you can tell the difference between a talented photographer and an untalented photographer? Or, do you use some other method for making that determination? And, if so, what is that method?  Jun 08 05 05:56 pm Link I'm coming to believe that it's just one more thing that models put in their profile that really has no meaning. Of if it means anything, it's "Pay me a lot of money, even though I have the most paltry, wannabe starter-set portfolio." The ususal explanation is that they want to weed out the GWC's prowling for naked chicks, but in reality the "model" is just a CWS [Chick with Snapshots]. Whenever I see that sort of statement on a profile, I just close the window and move on. Jun 08 05 06:12 pm Link its not fair...only the "awsome" "great" or fantastic" photographers get asked to work for free..what about us poor to average photogs..we wanna work for free just like the big guys..come on models..lower your expectations and give us guys a break.. Jun 08 05 06:15 pm Link I know what you mean. Sure, there are some models/mua etc who have the experience to know quality work, but it's a pretty damn subjective thing. I am sure there are people who look at my work and think I'm a hack. There are some who think I'm a genius (although I haven't personally had the pleasure...okay--yes I have. lol) I think it would be a smarter and more diplomatic thing to say "select" or "limited" tests/tfp. But who am I to talk? my profile says I will only test with "outstanding" models. I guess the idea is to put people on notice that you are going to be very particular about whom you will trade services with. In my case, as a photographer, I know what I like. Even if the model just fell off the "fresh model truck," if they suggest the potential for a remarkable shoot, then they are an outstanding model to me. MY big gripe is models with a fistfull of webcam pictures or arm's length digital photos posted who say they will only take paying gigs. What the f--! It really makes me laugh out loud. Jun 08 05 06:22 pm Link You can have them for free. Me, they need to pay. Okay, now that I got the attitude out of the way, I agree that this is one of those throwaways like "I don't do nudes" when there are nudes in their portfolio. The only times I've ever been turned down for TFP was by models who did NOT say this in their portfolio and simply said, "I don't have time for TFP right now." Perfectly acceptable. I've never - not even once - been turned down for TFP by someone who had the "exceptional photographers only" in their portfolio. And I'm hardly exceptional. Jun 08 05 06:25 pm Link Second thoughts. Edited. Jun 08 05 06:26 pm Link I think it translates to "Please, man with nothing but point and click snapshots of frightened naked girls on your bed, don't contact me with offers to build my portfolio." I just TFP with people who's work I like. Subjective, maybe. But I'm sure you'd only TFP with models you think are hot. And that's pretty subjective too. Jun 08 05 06:27 pm Link The line may help thin out the model's inbox a little. Many beginning photogs either know they suck, or are just unsure of their abilities, and may not contact a model that says she'll only work with "talented" photogs. It's an easy way to get some people to weed themselves out. It also maybe gives the model a convienent excuse to turn down a photog. I don't know. I'm just guessing here. On a side note, I do find it humorous when a model declares she won't do nudes, but then has nudes in her port. OMP # 176035 is a good example. She says "I will not do nude work of any kind.", but 2 of her 5 photos are implied nudes. Duh! Jun 08 05 06:50 pm Link Posted by jimmyd: I only work with talented models. Talented as meaning, she has to be hot. Jun 08 05 06:59 pm Link Posted by MollyCrabapple: I've said it before, drawing a line in the sand won't keep the trolls away. It only keeps away people who might have something to offer but don't want to deal with excessive "issues" when they choose a model. And I agree it cuts both ways: One of my favorite models in the area had nothing on her page but webcam shots when she contacted me. If I'd had some "rule" about "pro models only" in place, we'd have never worked together. And I don't know about the rest of these guys, but "hot" is not really part of my criteria for choosing a model to work with. I'm more interested in what kind of energy they can bring to my work. Jun 08 05 07:01 pm Link Posted by LarryB: "Implied Nude" is another one of those terms that has no meaning. I ignore it when I see it Jun 08 05 07:03 pm Link Posted by MollyCrabapple: This made me laugh. I've still got occasional snickers bubbling forth. Jun 08 05 07:15 pm Link Posted by MollyCrabapple: I'd TFP/TFCD just about anyone (almost, I mean if its someone who wants to do a watersports fetish shot, I'd probally wana pack up and go) who wanted me to do so, regardless if I thought they were Hawt or not. But ya it would be pretty subjective to do so, some people are picky, others are not, and some just want to build up their porfolio. Now if someone had leperosy (sp?) , they dont need a photographer they need a doctor. Jun 08 05 07:17 pm Link lol, these aspiring models are funny. Jun 08 05 08:05 pm Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: This joke is right in there with the wannabe models who list themselves as "very experienced" and have crappy photos to show for all of their experience. Jun 08 05 08:13 pm Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: Posted by LarryB: "Implied Nude" is another one of those terms that has no meaning. I ignore it when I see it So, is there a point, or are you just trolling? Jun 08 05 08:15 pm Link I just enjoy shooting whether paid or TFP and I don't see the issue about saying who you will or won't shoot with. Whether paid or bartering, if the photographer and model aren't clicking I feel it will show. Here is my latest TFHI (Time For the Hell of It).  Jun 08 05 08:36 pm Link George: that image is toooooo cute! and, on the TFP note, for me it's one or the other: 1) i like your work and want to play around for fun 2) i think your work will benefit my portfolio and/or connections for later. why else?  Jun 08 05 08:48 pm Link Posted by jimmyd: Jim, that's a beautiful shot. Jun 08 05 08:50 pm Link George, that kid is gonna love ya even more when he sees this photo at 30 years old. Nice shot! Posted by George Butler: Jun 08 05 08:52 pm Link C'mon guys. Let's not diss the newbee models for their not so politically correct choice of words. They're trying. Think of them as starting out as fine wine and gets better with time. Jun 08 05 08:56 pm Link Posted by LarryB: Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: Posted by LarryB: "Implied Nude" is another one of those terms that has no meaning. I ignore it when I see it So, is there a point, or are you just trolling? Yes, there is a point. I don't like to bother with models who use silly euphemisms to have it both ways. As far as I'm concerned, "implied nudity" is a cop out. Jun 08 05 09:02 pm Link Oh boy! Oh boy! I get to throw five cents into this conversation... First...I so agree with everyone about the "Amateur"/"Experienced", "Paid assignments only" and like what has already been said...Snapshots/cell phone shots for a port. But they are hell bound and bent on thinking that photographers are sugar daddy, ATM machines...(Note to those models and you know who you are PLEASE GO AWAY! Grow up! and come back later!) Second...The models that have "No nude", but there are full nude images in their port. WTF is that about!? Third...The models that have "I joined because I want to be noticed"...Gee...HI! (waving hand) Now find a photographer in your area and shoot with him/her instead of this crying wolf routine about being discovered and swept away to the red carpet...Not going to happen...Refer to #1 - Grow Up! Jun 08 05 09:04 pm Link Posted by Zoe: YEAH what Zoe said! Fun or Benefits!!!! Jun 08 05 09:33 pm Link Posted by Joe K. Perez: Posted by George Butler: Thanks Joe, it was his birthday party. I'm not even sure how old he turned, but since the Wife dragged me along I used as an opportunity to smap some pics. Jun 08 05 09:36 pm Link For a long time I had "I will only do TFP with photograpers that I feel will help me reach a higher level"... This was mostly to stop getting so many TFP requests, but also because I have been fortunate enough to work with some amazing photographers whom I can call at any time if I need some new photos, and vice versa. I don't really have the need to do photoshoots for free with photographers who are at a skill level lower than what I can already obtain. At this point I have removed that sentence and changed it to - I am not looking for TFP work. Period. It's a weird balance, but at a certain point, both photographer and model reach a level where the whole "portfolio building" process becomes redundant and a new level needs to be achieved. I'm sort of at that point and trying to figure out where to go with it. TFP is not going to help me other than adding a few new photos to my online portfolio. Now, if someone contacted me for TFP and in some way or form I knew it'd benefit me in the future, I'd go for it. For example, a magazine submission, feature model, etc. I think when most models write that they only want to work with exceptional photographers, they mean that they don't want people who are just starting to ask them to do TFP. By writing the term exceptional or something similar it gives them a reason to say no upfront. Jun 08 05 09:48 pm Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: Posted by LarryB: "Implied Nude" is another one of those terms that has no meaning. I ignore it when I see it I think there are times when implied nudity means something. I won't do nudes, but I will do implied. If you look at my portfolio, you never directly see all of my body. You can't see my nipples, or my crotch region. It is either covered, or hidden in some way. The MOST nude photos I have are the mohawk ones, but I feel the paint hides a lot. So, if someone writes me for artistic nudes, I decline because I won't do that. Implied is ok though.. my only rule is that nothing directly shows. ha.. Jun 08 05 09:53 pm Link Posted by Soshanna: Soshanna is actually a model that I would love to play with. (As I have said many times before, photography is too much fun to call it "work" and I would rather call it "play.") Jun 08 05 09:55 pm Link Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: Posted by Soshanna: Soshanna is actually a model that I would love to play with. (As I have said many times before, photography is too much fun to call it "work" and I would rather call it "play.") Muah!! hehe I sound like the evil witch. Jun 08 05 10:07 pm Link I have "professional" photographers in mine. Meaning I'm not looking for a date, I'm not looking for anything except to shoot with photographers that I can gain from the shoot as can they for their portfolios. I don't feel the need to have to spell it out anymore then that. If they don't work with me cuz they don't like how I word things then so be it. If I put implied, meaning I won't do exposed body parts (full breast, bottom etc), but meaning I will do covered in a sheet, open front jacket yet not exposed is bothersome to photographers well my question would be why don't know you what implied is? Why is there a catagory called implied? implied: To express or indicate indirectly I don't think putting down models for Trying to say what they will and won't do is a very positive or professional approach towards up and coming models or anyone for that matter, much less all the nitpicking. A simple request to a model on what they mean isn't that hard, if you want to work with them that is. Personally I like TFP shoots when I can do them. Most jobs I have been on or submitted for wanted me to send in pictures for jobs/movie parts etc. of recent work. Some request no older then 6 weeks. I try to find out what they are looking for and hope that a TFP that will work out. Most of the photographers I've worked with so far TFP wise have been great. Fun to work with and even if they have a different agenda for a shoot will get some of the poses I need blended in to the shoot. Paid shoots, I don't always get the photos or get some after the fact of usage or just hard copies that they don't want posted since they are going to be using them but I have for my portfolio. TFP's give me photos I can post on the web or submit over e-mail that is really helpful. Jun 08 05 10:24 pm Link Posted by Soshanna: Evil witch? Nah. Although, she WAS "the fairest of them all" until that bitch Snow White came along. Jun 08 05 11:03 pm Link Posted by Eric Muss-Barnes: and always will be Jun 08 05 11:05 pm Link It just so happens that I have that exact phrase in my portfolio. What qalifies ME as a model to decided wether or not a photographer has enough talent to work on a TFP basis with me, is my own understanding of the art/science aspect of photography itself. One needs only a discriminating eye to discern wether or not the PHOTOGRAPHER has that same understanding. Jun 08 05 11:13 pm Link Molly and Zoe pretty much nailed it. Of course "exceptional" and even "talented" are subjective terms. That goes without saying. My profiles say something similar, but maybe in a slightly more diplomatic way. "TFP for exceptional projects or to fill ocassional gaps in my book." That means I either find the photographer's work interesting enough that I want to do it to fulfill my own artisitc ya-yas or I don't have a recent picture like that. It's really only a way of saying that while I do TFP, I do it very rarely and I'm picky. we should ALL be picky about when we choose to work for free. Jun 08 05 11:27 pm Link They are all OMP terms: Will only work with Talented photographers NO PORN Please contact my manager (yeh right) No Nudes - For TFP - Like you will not do nudes for TFP if I possibly can offer the most exceptional nude image you ever had? All figments of OMP if you ask me.... Why not just give general ideas of what you do and answer your emails when I ask if you are interested in a specific job. Jun 09 05 12:18 am Link Posted by MollyCrabapple: HAHAHAHA!!!! Jun 09 05 12:20 am Link Posted by Bruce Caines: One model place defined. I'm going to start contacting THOSE models first... and remind them that they need to PROVE that they can work, before they get work Jun 09 05 01:00 am Link Posted by Melvin Moten Jr: pretty much.... Jun 09 05 01:02 am Link mine used to say "tfp - i have such limited time please only email if you are serious"...now no body emails me anymore.. m Jun 09 05 02:34 am Link Well, my view is "in the eye of the ..." so if someone think my work suck, I don't get mad, in fact, I respect his/her view. If someone don't appreciate my work, then what's the point for working together, for free, so it goes both way for this view and judgement. LOL. It's not true about TFP models, though. I've many well established models who offer to work TFP with me, the problem is the more established they're, the busier they're, so we usually keep in touch but rarely find time to work together. I've worked with some prof models who drove 3,4 hr to work TFP, too, and would not mind doing TFP for them--it's not only because it's so pleasant to work with skilled models, but also because we're both feel appreciated by the other, and the experience....well, you guess it, no word can describe :-) Anyway, I'm not claiming to be "big time" photographer, just part-time, so my experience is like...few months, LOL. Then again, it's "in the eye of the..." Just a thought. However anyone think or judge is respected. Jun 09 05 03:01 am Link |
I still have your email Eric -- and will continue to hold on to it....
