I'm just getting started with model photography, and in searching around the web ran into the concept of a "photoday".  These seem to be mostly in the L.A. area, while I'm located just south of San Jose, so it would be a bit of a drive for me to check one out.

They sound like they might be a way to get the feel for what it's like to shoot glamour, but they also sound like they could be a hectic madhouse.

I scrolled through pages and pages of threads looking for one on this topic, but I didn't find one.  Since I'm sure there will be some interesting opinions from everyone here, I decided to start a thread myself.

Could someone who has been to one of these describe what it's like?  As a photographer, would I get more than a few brief moments of attention from each model?  How is fill lighting handled?  By each photographer, or is that part of the organizer's responsibility?

Should I try one of these?  Or should I just dive right in and do one-on-one shoots?

Thanks,

-eric

Does the phrase "gang bang" mean anything to you?

Do you think you'll enjoy shooting a set that someone else has set up (and therefore not really "owning" the image produced), and jockeying for the best over-the-shoulder position, while others are doing the same to shoot over your shoulder?

If you just want images to stuff a book with and don't mind moshing with your camera, go for it.

Otherwise grab, find, or otherwise establish a photo buddy, shoot your cousin, shoot your neighbor, shoot your s/o, get an experienced model...Or hammer on doors of established photographers and see if they'll let you assist.

sometimes many dogs at the dog run is a good thing as long as the guy stay off of you as you do your duty.

If you're just starting out, you might get something out of it, mostly getting used to photographing models and not getting any sort of stage fright working with them. 

Me personally, for one thing, find NOTHING useful about them at all, but then this is my profession and the two are mutually incompatible  

This might infuriate some people (like those who PROMOTE their own photo days endlessly), but I think they're a complete waste of time and $$.  Sure it's a good thing for the models to make some money, but you're certainly not going to learn any usable skills, except perhaps, fighting for a slot with aggressive photographers, trying to utilize a less than optimum background, trying to make an image with less than optimum lighting, trying to get good work chemistry with a model who is trying to give attention to a swarm of shutterbugs, etc. etc. 

My advice.  Look at other photographer's work you like and use that as a basis to reinforce what you like about your own photography and change what you don't like about it.   I always find shooters who inspire me to try new lighting schemes, etc.    Also the solo route is the most efficient way to hone your craft. 

Model: Daniella (done by myself   )

back in the day, i used to work at a little mom & pop photo lab. there was a guy who went to these photo days all the time and brought in the crappiest photos of the skankiest models. i used to just laugh my ass off! just a bunch of dirty old men shooting wanna-be or has-been models. 10+ years later... not much has changed (from what i see on the web).

there are a lot of "photo days" in SoCal. i wouldn't be caught dead at one of them.

[ b ]

They can be useful.

Granted, most of the attendees, both models and photographers, are NOT serious about their work, but the setup can be a useful learning experience IF you choose to take some effort.

They can be used to

* Gain confidence with working with models
* Learn to deal with different lighting situations(1) without putting a paid job at risk
* spotting good angles on an otherwise unusable background/set
* etc.[/list]

Be willing to not shoot, but observe. Not just the models, but the environment, photographers, and how they interact with the models. What works, and what doesn't?

Review a lighting and/or posing guide before going, and try different things. Go with the intention of trying a particular approach/technique you've had trouble with.

At some point, you will get frustrated by the limitations(2) and crowding, but they can be excellent learning experiences, IF you're a self-starter. If you're not self-driven, I doubt you'll get anything from them--following the herd won't teach you anything, and you won't get usable images. But if you use it as an adjunct to other learning--books, videos, classes, whatever--it can be useful.

I started going a few years back when I was first trying to add fashion/glamour to my primarily portrait mix, and my work has (IMHO) become a lot better. I just avoid the situations where a model is surrounded by a zillion snappers, or the environment is too awful.

Three of the images in my MM 'folio are released images from photodays, in fact.

(1) Take the bloody flash off the camera!
(2) No makeup, or poor makeup. Clothing that's inappropriate for the model and/or environment. Models who can't relax in front of 20 snappers. The crowding. The lack of control over anything. Etc. The photographers who've been going 20+ years and still haven't figured out that what they did their first event didn't work, and have repeated the same mistake ever since. The promoters who lie about what they provide. Etc.

I would say something bad about them, but I've never been to one.

I don't know about these "photo day's" but over here on the east coast we sometimes get a few photographers and a few models together and have a couple of indoor setups or pick a nice outdoor location and each photographer gets 20 or 30 minutes to work with each model. Yeah it's not a lot of time but it allows you to get individual images of the model. Some peoples work is good some sucks. Sometimes you can learn from how another photographer is doing something. We try and keep it small usually 6 to 12 photographers and equal amount of models. We have never really had any problems with these events.

Here is a better idea..."A Day IN The LIfe" use the title of a day in the life of Modelmayhem as the background and Ty can add a page where it's devoted to one day in the life of it's members on that day we all do something productive......I hate the idea of a shoot day for the same reason someone said....18 photographers and one model....who claims they get the first shot, yet you all post your own version. Take it down to the bare level of each of us working with someone from here to create...everything from a web page to coffee table book....think of the ideas than can be done....just stop thinking about it and let's just do it.....it's easy to do

Great suggestion Alex. Creativity lives.

Kevin has made some good points. In years past I went to many of these events & found out what others have said about the crowding/bad-models/bad-clothes/etc.

There -are- some worth-it models, you just have to observe; you may have to choose a newby who arrived early rather than a good experienced one who arrived later and is mobbed.

I wanted to shoot one-on-one; no or few interruptions for at least 5-10 minutes. SO: I went to these EARLY(at the start), saw a potentially good subject, went up and said "lets shoot", took her some out of the way ... and had some quality time shooting before the swarm descended upon us!

this way I was able to  1) shoot with a variety of face and body types,   2) get some one-on-one time,   3) choose the setting and background.  worked for me!!

notes: 1) these events ALSO allow for you to network with the models and discuss later one-on-ones,  2) network with some photogs who seem good and exchange ideas/info/etc.

All of the above ...... at a -very- low pay!! was worth it to me (at that time in learning).

Posted by Kevin Connery: 
They can be useful.

Granted, most of the attendees, both models and photographers, are NOT serious about their work, but the setup can be a useful learning experience IF you choose to take some effort.

They can be used to [list]
[*]Gain confidence with working with models
[*]Learn to deal with different lighting situations(1) without putting a paid job at risk
[*]spotting good angles on an otherwise unusable background/set
[*]etc.[/list]

Be willing to not shoot, but observe. Not just the models, but the environment, photographers, and how they interact with the models. What works, and what doesn't?

Review a lighting and/or posing guide before going, and try different things. Go with the intention of trying a particular approach/technique you've had trouble with.

At some point, you will get frustrated by the limitations(2) and crowding, but they can be excellent learning experiences, IF you're a self-starter. If you're not self-driven, I doubt you'll get anything from them--following the herd won't teach you anything, and you won't get usable images. But if you use it as an adjunct to other learning--books, videos, classes, whatever--it can be useful.

I started going a few years back when I was first trying to add fashion/glamour to my primarily portrait mix, and my work has (IMHO) become a lot better. I just avoid the situations where a model is surrounded by a zillion snappers, or the environment is too awful.

Three of the images in my MM 'folio are released images from photodays, in fact.

(1) Take the bloody flash off the camera!
(2) No makeup, or poor makeup. Clothing that's inappropriate for the model and/or environment. Models who can't relax in front of 20 snappers. The crowding. The lack of control over anything. Etc. The photographers who've been going 20+ years and still haven't figured out that what they did their first event didn't work, and have repeated the same mistake ever since. The promoters who lie about what they provide. Etc.

Wow!  Great info from people, thanks!

What I'm getting in general is "don't expect much".  If I do go to one of these, I'll be treating it as a learning experience.  I may try one out when I'm in the area for a family visit this summer.

I guess I'd be mostly looking to get a feel for the whole process.  Unfortunately, the process I'd be seeing would be a "photoday", not a regular shoot.

The east coast variety sounds a lot more sane.  Any interest in putting together a sane version in the SF bay area?

-eric

Eric, you live near San Fransisco, a beautiful city with beautiful, cool and funky locations filled with beautiful, interesting and unique people. Why on earth you'd rather go to one of those cheesy ass clusterfuck things than finding some cool people to shoot in cool places is beyond me. Between approaching people in public, asking friends or workmates, talking to people at the many schools and art schools in the area about the models they use, finding girls here, putting up fliers or ads in the paper I'm sure you can find plenty of people to shoot with.

BTW, I was born in Redwood City
If you want to learn from good photographers there's probably not too many places in the US with more of them to learn from then right were you are. Go to the next APA and ASMP chapter meetings in SF and talk to people about assisting, observing and mentoring. You'll not only learn shooting/interacting from real pro's, but you'll learn important things about the business, how things work in the real photo biz, what to do and not to do. Unless you're not interested in all that.

Since your in SJ I think there is  "bob's model hangout" that I think is free. Never been to one and no desire to do anything like it but if you want that kind of experience there is one a lot closer than LA.
http://bobsmodelhangout.com/

For those interested in the history of Southern California 'photodays', as well as the events currently being offered, and a general overview of their operation, I can provide the following review and information:

So. California 'Photodays' have been in existance for well over 20 years.  Some of the earliest events that I attended (in those last 20 years) were hosted by Franks Cameras in LA, Mike Bean of the New Faces Camera Club, Rocky Ferguson of Glamour Photographers International, Joe Duer's 'The Models' photodays, and Debbie Valentine in San Diego (no longer hosting-Debbie is an MM member #3505).  Other promotors who events I frequented were Bob Klymers photodays in West Covina (no longer hosting events), Gregg Roenbaugh's Western Camera Club shoots (no longer hosting events), and John Baie's API photoday events.  Most of these currently operating photodays are listed on the schedule of events at http://www.photodays.com, a site maintained by Gregg Roenbaugh. 

The 'typical' So. California photoday promotors conduct their events in roughfully the following fashion:

The photoday promotor will usually find a public access location, a state, county or city park, public school, private or public landmark location.  Unfortunately, some of these locations charge parking fees that all the photoday participants have to pay.  These locations are many times public parks that the promotor pays little or nothing to use.  A permit from the city is sometimes required, but many times is not.  In locations such as this, the photoday promotor has little or no control over the public's usage of the park.  So as a result, picnic parties, large parking lots filled with cars and children throwing footballs and skakeboarding thru your photographic background can be quite previlant.  At these locations, you are forced to utilize restrooms that are sometimes far from properly maintained or sanitized, with models frequently forced to use these restrooms as changing rooms... ewwwwwwww!  At parks, the city police and park rangers have the right to monitor the proceedings of your photoday event.  If they feel that the models are wearing outfits that are not consistance with park attire, or the photoday participants (photographers or models) are not conducting themselves in a fashion consistant with park activities, they can force the promotor to shut his photoday down, ending the event completely.  This has happened several times that I am aware of.  If at the completion of a photoday event, you witness a large amount of photographers, and a small amount of models, with what you consider to be a relatively small amount of prize money being awarded to the winning 6 or 8 models, you can rest assured that the photoday promotor has probably pocketed a strong portion of the photographers signup monies, without giving enough funds to those who have worked the hardest for it... THE MODELS!  On more than one occasion, I talked with many photographers who expressed their concern over the possible promoters 'tampering' of results in the models voting ballots.  Thru-out the 90's, many photoday promotors were 'rumored' to have their own 'favorite list of models' who they invited to their events.  In the eyes of many photographers (myself included), it appeared that regardless of how photographers voted, it seemed that the models on the 'promotors favorite list' were always the ones going home with the most money... hmmmmm!  It's my belief that this form of 'corruption' has, for the most part, left photodays.  But with only the promotors counting the votes (which still transpires today), and no usage of an unbiased voting tabulator, one can never know for sure.  While attending a photoday in the 90's, I talked to a photographer who informed me that there were a small group of promotors and photographers who disliked me WITH A PASSION, because I referred many models to agents for assignments, and acting workshops to further their careers, by offering models outside opportunities of higher income, I was classified as someone who was undermining the lifeblood of photodays... whatever!   

Photographers attending photodays are charged a signup fee at the beginning of the event, usually 20 to 60 dollars or more.  They are issued 'voting ballots', and thru-out the day, they obtain model numbers from models they shoot, vote for their favorite models, and turn the ballots in just before the end of the shoot.  They are given a basic set of rules to follow, which normally includes treating the models with respect, with 'hands off' rules always in effect, while not straying too far from the primary event location.  Models attending these photodays receive free admission, are issued a 'model number' when they sign up at the event, and usually bring a small selection of outfits to wear.  The prize money purse for models is structured in a way to pay the top 6 to 8 models who received the most votes from the photographers  Thru-out the 4-5 hour photoday, the models pose for, and work with a variety of participating photographers.  During these photodays, some models have been spotted screaming out their model numbers to crowds of photographers, in the hopes of influencing a photographers vote.  Unforunately, at many of these photodays, there can be 25 to 50 models in attendance.  With prize money going to ONLY the top 6 or 8 models, alot of times there are 30 to 40 models going home with ZERO money to show for their 5 hours of work.  THAT SUCKS if you're a model that busted your ass all day, and received nothing to show for it.  Many models at these photodays saw what transpired as a form of competition, and photodays lost ALOT of models, because of what some considered unfair treatment, combined with the serious lack of pay.  Also... if you are a photographer attending an 18 or over nude or semi-nude glamour photoday event, you can pretty much be guaranteed that you will be battling 20 or 30 photographers or more for the attention of ONE model, as events such as those usually have HIGH photographer turnouts, and low model attendance.  To get an opportunity to work with ANY model 'one on one' at an event such as this is next to IMPOSSIBLE.  Nude glamour workshops that charge photographers 3 to 5 hundred dollars or more (like some 'shoot-outs' currently being operated by various promotors), will have smaller photographer turnouts, and more opportunities to work with models 'one on one', but you are paying several hundred dollars more than what photoday prices are.  With the same basic form of operation for close to 2 decades, I witnessed dozens of photoday photographers falling into what I considered to be a 'creative rut'... taking home the same kind of photographs, with the same kind of poses, over and over and over again. Talk about boring bullshit!  I dont know how many photographers I have viewed portfolios of in the last 15 years, who images look just about the same as any other photoday photographer that you would run into.  My recommendation... try different camera angles, various positions of the models hair, use different lighting techniques, shift around to get more flattering backgrounds, ask your model to change outfits.  Dont just shoot that same constant 'stand there and smile' bullshit.   

After a few years of attending various photodays, glamour events, and workshops in the 80's and early 90's, I decided to stucture and conduct some photographic modeling events, with a different method of operation from what you have read about above.  I dumped the voting ballot option completely, thereby eliminating the possibility of corruption or competition, and EVERY model who attends a SELECT MODELS event will go home with money, paid to them by the photographers they work with, putting the photographer in charge of the monies paid out, NOT the promotor.  At the events we conduct, there is a minimum amount of 'model money' that is used and recommended... it's $40.  However, many photographers attending our events have purchased 3 to 6 times more model money than that, with some at every event purchasing a few hundred dollars.  The most amount of model money bought at one of our events was $500, purchased by a guy who took very few photographs... just walking around, giving his favorite models $20 at a time.  At photodays, there is no option for photographers to be that 'abundantly gracious' to the models.  It honestly was not my idea to create the 'model money' method of paying the models, but rather a models idea, Heather McBroom (see 'Feather Face Heather' on our MM photopage).  For a complete overview of how our events are conducted, we recommend reading the models and photographers FAQ pages on our website, available from our MM profile page.  Because of the difference that exist between photodays, and the events that we conduct, I don't honestly consider our events to be 'photodays', but there some photographers in this region who always want to argue that fact with me.  Whatever... they have the right to their own opinion.  Our events are posted on the photodays.com website, so hey... maybe it's true... LOL!  In the last 12 years, we have conducted over 100 events.  We have used a variety of private locations, with ZERO parking fees charged, and NO picnic park brats, looky-lews, or park rangers to interupt the event.  I've tried to stucture our events to keep the 'photographer to model' ratios to 3-1 or less, but because of some large turnouts, those ratios have been hard to maintain.  Our largest event took place in 1995 at the (10 acre) Humphreys Mansion in Temecula, with 91 models and 311 photographers in attendance.  The crowds we sustained at a half a dozen of those 'Humphreys Mansion' photoshoots were largely brought on by the emince popularity of the location.  With 2 swimming pools, a 12 foot waterfall, double story gazebo with spiral staircase, two ponds, an aquaduct with hanging vines, a large model dressing room with 2 healthy size bathrooms, a big snackbar, tennis courts, and English Gratto, a large studio room with stain glass windows everywhere, water fountains, sports cars and motorcycles in the circular driveway, an abundance of beautiful shade trees and great natural posing spots and props everywhere, this place was (and still is) a virtual photographers paradise.  Loads of free parking along the road and in fields next to the mansion provided tons of parking space for the large crowds that attended.  We lost the usage of this location because the owners decided to use their mansion for hosting weddings and receptions on both saturdays and sundays, of which they generate approximately $6000 to $8000 of profit daily.  Future events we conduct will NOT be that insanely populated, with emphasis being on the 'quality' of participants, NOT the quanity.  Our largest prize money winning model of all time is TAVIA SPIZER, over $400 (MM member #3668).  There are currently dozens of Model Mayhem model and photographer members who have attended past events, and some of them have posted TAGS on our member page.  Our next event is the June 19th 'Bikini Photoshoot' in Laguna Beach.  It is sold out, with 8 models and 19 photographers already pre-registered.   Our next open event is the July 24th 'Bikini Photoshoot', also in Laguna Beach.   We are also co-hosting the June 18th (1pm) Model Mayhem 'Network Pizza Party' at Lampost Pizza in Mission Viejo CA.  There are currently over 80 MM members who have RSVP'd for the network pizza party.  ALL Model Mayhem members are welcome to attend, with details and directions on our MM page, and alittle over 30 openings left as of June 12th.

PS:  It is not my intention to get into a debate over how worthwhile I may or may not think that photodays are.  After reading most of the posts on this thread, you can pretty much come up with that conclusion on your own.  My sole purpose of this post was to provide alittle bit of history, and some insite.

Can you say cheesy? Cheesy promoters, cheesy models, cheesy concepts, umm....cheesy haha!

I've been to group shoots. For me, always sounds better than what it turns out to be. However, it's a nice time to meet fellow photographers, chat with them, meet some models, do some networking.  But I haven't gotten results worth mentioning from a group shoot I've been on. 

if you don't have any other resource to find models, and you're a newbie? then do it once. get aggressive and learn to shoot like a papparrazo. because if you don't, you'll end up hating it. others might not like that and some old farts would even say "hey, sonny! we're shooting from left to right!" yeah, shooting the girls while they're in line like a herd of cattle...as everyone else said in this post, you'll get the same shots with the same models from the same photogs...get creative and find other resources to get models. because if you ain't got game, well, i guess paying a promoter to shoot models is your only choice. wait...why don't you just ask the models here on MM? it's free...

I've been going to local group shoots for years. I go not to shoot the models but to shoot the breeze with the other photographers, and oh by the way there's a pretty girl who needs some pictures.

The group shoots in Ohio are small, maybe a dozen or two people, both models and photographers.  I've made some good friends and learned to shoot in adverse situations with the materials on hand.

Did I get any good pictures?  Well, for a beginner, yeah they didn't suck.  Now as I look back on them, they did suck. But I didn't know it at the time :-)

I have been as a MUA to an event similar but not the exact one you are referring to.  I have followed posts and have seen the photos for years from this type of event and here is my take on them............

The models are typical glamour models, not models you would put in your book in order to get work other then more glamour work.  Some of the models are down right homely in my opinion and some are actually cute (in a girl at the mall cute kind of way) but I have never ever ever seen one that would be considerd model material by industry standards.

The atmosphere is hectic but I think fun for the photographer, I really think these guys have fun.  Very few pros attend these gatherings but nobody cares, these guys that know each other from the internet get thogether and have a blast....they get to shoot naked women or scantily clad women, they get to flirt, do some male bonding  and best of all they get to go home and posts their glamour shots all over the internet...then they get to back pat each other and remember the good times for a few months until the next event.

So to sum it up, I think it's worth it for the GWC that wants to have fun and hang with people like himself.  The models that would never get a real job get to play model (it's a huge ego boost for them)   It's a big ego boost for the teachers as well, all these guys looking up to them for a few days. If you expect good portfolio material, forget it.  If you want to meet people and have fun it might be for you.

the answer I gave was my opinion from my observations over the years and from the one I did attend. I gave my point of view with all honesty.  I think I was fair to give the positive and the negative.

  I have seen hundereds of photos from these shoots and have never seen one that I would put in a portfolio intended for any audiance other then the glamour audiance.

Here are a few posts from Garage Glamour that I came up with (the first I came across when searching just now for these event shots)

I am posting the address instead of the photos because I dont want people getting bent out of shape that I posted someones photos .....

http://www.garageglamour.com/ubbthreads … =7&fpart=1   

http://www.garageglamour.com/ubbthreads … =7&fpart=1

http://www.garageglamour.com/ubbthreads … =7&fpart=1

I am open to people posting photos that are usable (in a professional portfolio) from these events and proving me wrong    (we may disagree on what would be of use in a professional portfolio)

Again,  I am pretty sure from all that I have read that the guys have a lot of fun at these events, they attend over and over so I have no doubt it's worth it for them but I see no value for a professional with the goal of getting content for their PROFESSIONAL portfolios. 

edited to add....

Standards for a professional portfolio differ I am sure but a good portfolio, one you will show to commercial clients and magazines need to have these elements in place

1)  Great styling
2)  Great model, the kind a real agency would sign
3)  Great makeup and hair most shots very clean
4)  Great photography, lighting, posing, composition

If there is a missing element in my opinion the shot shouldn't go in a  professional book.  Thats my opinion.

From a model's perspective...

I attended one of the "meetup.com" group shoots. Not as a way to get shots for my book, but rather to meet new photographers and other local models. Which is precisely what it was good for. There were about two dozen in attendence altogether, with more photographers than models. The largest issue is that the space was entirely too small and held in the organizer's gameroom studio, which in turn made the "set" rather cheesey indeed. If the event had been held at a park, I'm sure the results would have been far better; unfortunately weather here does not permit location shooting during the winter months.