|
Forums >
General Industry >
tfcd: you're getting it for free....
ill say it again......... not about the money. it was an example. gratitude and help comes in many other forms other than money. and you are right. i have regretable come to realize tfcd is loaded with too many people that expect the photographer to do and pay for everything. thus i will only shoot the last remaining tfcds and im done. from now on I will charge for everything as to avoid the tfcd and ONLY hire from agencies or work with friends. yes it will cost me money to hire them, just proving its not about the money but the appreciation and respect. everyone here has ranted about something and will continue to have the same old rants they chose. I exercised the same right everyone else has. how come i cant fashion model how come i cant get models to call me how come photographers tell me my work is not up to par............. etc. I ranted and thats it. you all convinced me. no more tfcd for me. Feb 23 06 05:59 pm Link FabioTovar wrote: You really can't be serious.... send cd's all the time... one cd in a cd mailer(less than 2 oz) plus postage is like 56 cents. Be generous, mail her the CD... what a hoot! Feb 23 06 06:52 pm Link *yawn* I'm glad there are witty people here. I wouldn't have made it through 3 pages otherwise. Of course isn't that generally the case here? I love how *some* photographers assume models don't understand or appreciate the work they put into the shoot. I hate to generalize- especially because those who don't know better will misunderstand anything, no matter how clearly it is put. I'm aware they spend lots of time of money on their craft. So do models. Depending on the shoot, it might take hours to prepare. I never ask for a MUA; if I wanted one, I'd pay for one. If a photog provides one, that's awesome... but I certainly do not expect one. I always bring a case full of make-up, hair products, and jewelry, so we are able to make choices that will affect the shoot in a positive way. I'm careful in selecting my outfits, which are packed with great effort. I make sure I have shoes and undergarments for each selection. In other words, my preparation is extensive too. As far as locations, I'm always on the lookout for interesting places to shoot, and have found locations or made suggestions for plenty of shoots. In other words, an open dialouge with a mind toward both parties getting what they want or need out of the shoot = the shot, or shots both are hoping their hard work will result in. And open dialouge requires respect, on both sides. If a photographer respects me as a fellow collaborator, we are often able to come to agreements about things that suit us both. If a photographer comes in ready to fight? Things don't go so smoothly at all. If they go at all. Everyone has experience, everyone has goals (well, hopefully). Everyone wants to get a good "deal" and somehow get paid. But looking at shoots as this tug-of-war between photographers and models re: who's doing more rarely results in anything productive. At least not without a lot of stress and hard feelings first. Additionally, I've had photographers get work out of my using their pictures on my website, in my book, etc. One of my favorite photographers captured a gorgeous headshot that I use regularly at auditions; there is always at least person that wants to know who took the picture and how to get in touch with him. I'd say the potential in that is huge. Certainly worth the time he took to touch the picture up, and the cost of postage. Feb 23 06 07:05 pm Link You know the beautiful thing about TFP/TFCD? Everyone has the right to negotiate *any little detail* before the shoot. If the photographer doesn't want to spring for the wardrobe, lighting, site, camera, or MUA, the model or MUA can choose to do so if they really want to work with the photographer. If the model doesn't want to download the pictures or pick them up in person, they can agree on an alternate arrangement. It sounds like the OP's model release did not specify how and when *delivery* would take place, and that resulted in both people making unreasonable demands (whining over $3 on one side, demanding doorside service on the other). I'd chaulk this one up to poor planning. It's just plain silly to enter into a barter arrangement without arranging the delivery details and schedule. On my release, the model specifically writes in their mailing address and we negotiate costs (postage, and printing if it's TFP vs. TFCD) before the shoot. Without a physical address, I will place them online on my web site for previewing and selection, and via BitTorrent for final print-quality downloads. I don't do email, and though I run an FTP service, it's too much of a pain to configure for every shoot. BT is obscure, but it works, and I can also use it (more efficiently) to deliver photos to friends who were at parties with me, etc. Feb 23 06 07:19 pm Link once again people ......its not the cost of the postage! you people focus on the one thing its not about. but whatever this is the net you will all continue to say its about 3 bucks. whatever. my rant was based on divas who expect everything for free with no effort on their part and then LITERALLY want it delivered at their doorstep by ME.. you people have mostly taken it in all different directions focusing on postage. DID YOU ALL READ THE PART WHERE I SAID SHE WANTED ME TO BRING IT TO HER whereever she is? hmmmmm come to think of it. why would she want me to take it to her and not just let me mail it. I JUST had a thought........................ Would you models ever use this as a way to see the photographer again outside of a professional manner? Feb 23 06 07:19 pm Link It's a message board dude. It's like a conversation, without the benefit of vocal tone or body signals. Sometimes things don't flow the way you originally intended them to. Perhaps you should've been more clear in your rant? Or made a very specific point in conclusion. Feb 23 06 07:57 pm Link Nemi wrote: You've confirmed my suspicion - someone's been spikng your Latte. Feb 24 06 01:58 am Link benson wrote: OK, you got me. What kind of lights and design did you end up with? I don't need details--though I wouldn't mind--but that's not the normal environment, and it sounds fascinating. Feb 24 06 04:29 am Link benson wrote: Are you serious? FabioTovar wrote: I agree with Fabio over there. Ty Simone wrote: Shipping a CD is 89 cents First Class. Vance wrote: Totally! Feb 24 06 06:25 am Link FABIO! I read your posts, I read your follow-ups. I think you are still an idiot though, and here is why. (sorry I call them like I see them) My understand of what you are trying to say is this. 1. You are a professional photographer. 2. You tried to help a model out with a TFP / TFCD shoot. 3. Model is being a pain in the ass and it annoys you, because you were trying to be helpful. 4. You eneded to vent and figured here is a good place for it. 5. It's not about the $3 you only mentioned that because... Whatever reason you mentioned it. OK. Now, You are acting EXTREMELY unprofessional in your posts. Personally I could care less what your gripe is with this particular model. In your post, you basically, whether intentional or not, Slammed each and every model on this site. "You show up, You pose, You leave." I got to say, If I was a model, and you were willing to pay me large sums of money to shoot with you, I'd still have to hesitate, simply because of the insulting attitude. Follow that up with bring up petty stuff, the postage. Then try to cover that with "No address to send it to." If you ahve no address to send it to, then why complain about the cost of postage to send it? You started this thread, Shoved your foot deep in your mouth, and in trying to extract it, pushed it down deeper and brought the second foot up. Apologize and walk away. You are fighting an uphill battle against a superior force with unlimited firepower and unlimited re-inforcements. You can not win this one. If you do not wish to help models out and do TFP in the future, Fine, do not do it. I am sure there are millions of models out there that will be devastated by that announcement (NOT) There are also millions of photographers that will follow in your footsteps (NOT) actually, the reality is, If you do that, It is one less mook the models have to wade through, and one less competitor the Photogs have to worry about when trying to get free shots with hot women. Now, I am sure you are not the Jerk you truly appear to be in this thread. I have read other posts by you, and in those you seem much more mature. I think in this case, the model got really deep under your skin, and you finally exploded. It happens to the best of us. Apologize to the models for being insulting. Apologize to the photographers for being insulting. Apologize to the dude with the funny makeup (sorry benson, I just had to say that - I really really love your stuff!) And never ever ever ever insult the most precious commodity on these boards... The Models, without which, we'd be a bunch of horny starving guys with digital cameras and disposables, and nothing to shoot but landscapes (ok, I am not in that group... I am a Game Creator and Artist  ) EDIT: From the Time I worte thius until the Time I posted it, You changed the original post to something much more presentable. I applaud you for being a man about it. Thank you. You restored my faith in the human race.... for at least this particular minute Feb 24 06 07:40 am Link FabioTovar wrote: Oh great Benson, I'm a poor redheaded stepchild! Feb 24 06 08:53 am Link Suzi wrote: Nah Suzi, Feb 24 06 10:11 am Link First of all let's all put our ego's on the shelf here... Models and photographers need to understand that testing with someone is of mutual benefit. Niether is better than the other and both are required to obtain the "money shot". The talent, time, money, experience and equipment that a photographer brings to the table is as important as the talent, time, money, etc... that a model brings to the table. If you work in the real world of photography... both model and photographer are considered talent by the client and ad agency and both can be as easily replaced as the other. I know of two photographers that a cruise line we shoot for will not use again because of their ego's and the way they treat models and their assitants. Let's all go back to kindergarten and all play nicely in the MM sandbox. Peace.... Jeff Feb 24 06 10:18 am Link PictureJeff wrote: Oh yeah! Well my dad can beat your dad! Feb 24 06 10:20 am Link Besides being Petty as Hell..........this is a purely one sided point of view......Did you ever think about the models expenses?........That body is a timely thing to maintain......a gym membership is not free......Special Healthy foods are more expensive than Mc Donalds......Maybe she pays a trainer?........Her hairstylist....manicure and pedicure...Drive time to the shoot...gas and wear and tear on her car.......Stop your self absorbed whining and suck it up......HOME DEPOT CAN SUPPLY YOU WITH WOOD, NAILS AND A HAMMER TO ALLOW YOU TO BUILD A BRIDGE TO GET OVER THIS. I agree with this totally! I have a gym membership and work out 4 days a week, i eat healthy, I drive to all of my shoots (and most of the time do not get travel expenses) I really dont think there should be a problem when a model and photographer agree on TFp shoots, the photographer should expect to have certain expenses. The model is expected to get herself/ himself there and back at their own expense. So the few bucks for a cd and mail should be worht it or just dont do TFP's at all. Just my 2 cents. Feb 24 06 10:23 am Link Ty Simone wrote: Now that more like it... Feb 24 06 10:25 am Link Nikita Lee wrote: With a body like that, You should be running a gym! Feb 24 06 10:25 am Link Ty and Jeff, you guys rock my world today. Feb 24 06 12:35 pm Link AstraDivaJ wrote: Be sure to tune in next week when Ty Says "@%%....()&#$$$(())" Feb 24 06 01:29 pm Link Ian Weintraub wrote: Shhh I know, but we were talking about four letter words, so I improvised. Feb 24 06 08:47 pm Link Ty Simone wrote: I know you're just being facetious Ty, but you seriously have to consider that there are a lot of amateurs, semi-pro and pro models (of the female variety), out there who think exactly that "we'd be a bunch of horny starving guys with digital cameras and disposables". Feb 24 06 11:53 pm Link Bob4friends wrote: I know the PREPARATION it takes and the time photographers put into getting things shot now that I've ventured over, even a small photo shoot. It's VERY VERY VERY time consuming and for the photographer and model, once the shoot is finished..the photographers job is not, it's going through the images, finding the best ones, editing them, etc., etc. If he/she's TFPing with the MUA, then that's another thing to do... Feb 25 06 01:31 am Link AstraDivaJ wrote: While I agree with you, I do have to say I've modeled and now am a photographer, lol. And I just gotta be REAL on this one, for me modeling was easy, went in, had fun, posed up..it was never work for me. I'd go in, get all glamed up (which was always fun to ME) act silly, fun, serious, sexy, etc., etc. in front of a camera (very fun to me) then afterwards, nothing more, go home and wait on the pics(VERY fun) LOL But photography? Pure work the entire way through with some fun yea..but definitely TO ME, it was less stressful modeling. Plus, I never haid to pay for anything, CDs, Lenses, lights, reflectors, MUA's, locations, etc., etc. Feb 25 06 01:38 am Link Is this really something that deserves to be publicly ranted? Me thinks it would've been best resolved privately. Feb 25 06 03:14 am Link photographers take message board arguing to a whole new level of ego-bruising, which is why they are often viewed as "cancers" among industry companies, and who can blame them? (the companies that is) people want the last word, others want to look the most professional, and when somebody offers their own point of view, theyre bashed for their work or skill level just for offering an opinion. these forums are nothing like what they used to be, its more like another country at war, real talk. Feb 25 06 03:31 am Link I pretty much have come to realize that no matter what your real intentions on the internet... its always going to have a life of its own. for the last time.... not about the 3 bux or the cd. but ive already said that too many times. most people probably dont even read the entire thread. just parts that inspire a response right then and there. either way ive learned a valuable lesson from all this. most of the bashers on this thread won't give a damn about what im going to say. and some might actually be glad because there are just some people who are glad when others do bad... I have decided to hang up my tfcd hat per many of your suggestions. I will not be doing it anymore. I am considering canceling the few I have left. I don't know yet. Having had too many bad experiences I find I am no longer getting the satisfaction I feel I should have. The results are there I just feel happy looking at my pictures anymore. The sad part is. Im sure there are some people that could have mutually benefited from a collaboration with me. A very very few of you nailed it. This experience just got under my skin and I vented. For that I truly regret. I didnt want sympathy or a bandwagon to follow. and quit honestly I expect some ass to bash this response even more and beat the already dead horse. but at this point.. whatever. Hopefully this will be me closing a door on a mistake I made by voicing my frustration. For those of you who saw past my original frustrated words thank you for at least trying to understand where i was coming from at that momment. Good luck to all of you. and i agree with many of the other posts on MM these days. These forums have become a bashing ground for every occasion. Feb 25 06 04:01 am Link what i would recommend as far as a system for doing tfp is something thats still open but closed off. like, i do a referral tfp thing where i only do it if theyre referred by somebody i've either worked with or is part of my company. if theyre not any of the 2, its like a blind date and the ratio here is bad as far as depending on people to show up for something. i dont reschedule any of them either, its one and out. i just do it like that and keep it moving, and its been cool so far, i've made plenty of enemies but, like i said, only people who i shoot tfp with is people who were referred by somebody i already worked with, and truth be told, unless theyre a good friend of them i dont bother at all. but dont just give up on it because of the actions of one community. model mayhem sometimes can make you shake your head in the way people carry on throughout the website, but once you turn your PC off, this place doesnt matter. youre in a different area than some of these people and what goes on in your area may be different from theirs. but stay true to yourself and dont let the ego-bruising steer you off the cliff, at the end of the day, theyre still going to have that same ego (as evidence by viewing the other 8934423787489397824 million threads in the forum theyve probably ruined). hope everything works out for you  and keep your spirits high, but dont let these ego-maniacs let your thoughts swerve.Feb 25 06 04:19 am Link Chuck Holliday wrote: OMP messageboards used to be that way, until they got moderators. Feb 25 06 04:27 am Link ouch! hahahhaa, youre not lying though, hahahaha Feb 25 06 01:40 pm Link Cynthia2 wrote: Greetings, Feb 25 06 02:44 pm Link |
