littlegett wrote:
I tire of reading all these things.  I stopped at the photographer above whom said how much eq is for photographers.

Granted money is spent for everything.

yet an MUA is the only one with consumable goods.  the makeup/sponges/whatever gets used and is gone.  I understand this and I have no problem with a kit fee when I have the money for it L()L.

anyway, look at it that way.  Consumable goods.  I can use my camera and lights and stuff for a number of shoots.  Im trading for time basicly.  The model well.  has to just be there and look pretty.  follow direction and well nothign consumed there sept time.  Models get off the easiest of everyone.

This is how I look at it.  Good bad or indiffernt.

Yisell wrote:
I've been doing make-up for a year and a couple months.  I'm certified in both Basic and Bridal make-up.  I do good work and I'm dedicated to making my clients happy.  I work long hours (sometimes 12 hours on a shoot and more than 1 model and more than 1 look). 

So recently starting charging a $50 kit fee because honestly I was running out of make-up and my kit needed to be refilled.  Taking the money out of my own pocket is getting tough.

But when I mention that I charge a Kit Fee for TFP/CD to photographers and models, they seem to freak out or not want to work with me.  They seem to not understand that make-up is NOT $5.  One foundation can be anywhere from $30 - $50. 

How do I make them understand that it's important for the kit fee because without makeup...I can't work!

I don't think anyone should freak out but I also wouldn't expect people to want to cover a kit fee.

Let's approach this a differnent way.  What if the photographer was willing to TFP/CD, however, he's gonna charge you for the film he uses.  I don't know much about film, but I imagine this could get to $30 to $50 for a single shoot, no?  anyone? anyone?

Hamza wrote:

By your answers I can tell that  you lack much experience in this industry... LMAO

Polaroids look GREAT when they are done right!!!
Put a Potato Sack on Heidi Klum or Pamela Anderson and I'm sure it will look good!  As a matter of fact, that is what I am going to do this summer, I will take a pic of a model in a potato sack and actually make it look good, just for you.

Go here for great polaroid pictures...
http://www.polaroid.com/creative/index.jsp

hmmmmmm   ever seen Pamela Anderson without makeup?  bad example for the patato sack, her assets are below the neck

Yisell wrote:
I'm so glad that I started this thread!  Love the opinions and what everyone thinks!  A lot of you state good points.  TFP/CD = TFP/CD.  But how long should I do that for?  I've actually done A LOT of TFP/CD and I have some pretty awesome stuff in my book and I've only charged the kit fee once.  So I dont mind doing TFP, but I can't do it forever

I would reserve your TFP time for really special models and photographers, but don't ask for a kit fee on these shoots - save that for when you give in to TFP but the model or hotographer is just so-so.

If all goes well, eventually you'll be so busy that you won't have time for TFP, at least that's how it should work I would think.  Then you can just hide that kit fee in your regular rates.

Bill Tracy wrote:
TFP should be TFP.

I have yet to use an MUA on a shoot, although I would really like to.

It's just that all the models I have worked with do their own, and a few of them were Mac certified and had all Mac makeup.
As a photographer I bring allot to the table besides my just camera and lighting.
I have several backdrops and props, plus I'm supplying the heating or air conditioning, plus bathroom facilities - lol!  I'm always buying a new funky chair or sofa on eBay or craigslist.
I also have to replace my seemless paper backdrops every so often.
They don't cost all that much, only about $35 each, but I have to make a trip into NYC to get them, or pay $75 each for shipping the 10 foot rolls of paper.

Yisell  I suggest you ask the photographer to shoot the before pictures for you and one or two of you applying makeup to show your work as part of the trade.  That way you get to build your book.

Best of Luck

Brian Diaz wrote:

If your photo business doesn't use consumables, I think you're probably paying too much in taxes.  You should talk to your accountant.

Ok Let me rephrase it than.

Other than CD, I have no Single Use Consumables.

I shoot digital.

With film, there are other single use consumables like film.. duh.

Model.. ummm. no single use consumables at all.  Clothing can be reworn/sold/traded/whatever.

MUA, stuff is single use.

Guess it all comes down to this.

If you need to charge a fee, state up front.  If the person doesn't want to pay said fee.  Than find someone that will.  And when do you stop doing TFCD.  Whenever you feel like it.  Basicly you could be a 100 yr seasoned vet, and if you ant to do TFP than do it. Or don't.  Simple to me.

MUA Kitfee is reasonable.  It doesn't bother me. 

The Skill class Broken down by service in my view is this.

MUA -- is the ability to apply the makeup To the Photographers vision
The Photographer -- ablity to capture said vision/image
Model -- to stand around look pretty and follow direction.

Basicly thats it.

From what I understand. Trade for prints/cd is trading ones skillset for another, to where all benifet whom are involved.

If I has single use consumables, I might be a little differnt minded about it.  But I don't.  so this is how I see it for me.

It all comes down to those involved and how they want to treat it.  Nuff said.

littlegett wrote:

Ok Let me rephrase it than.

Other than CD, I have no Single Use Consumables.

I shoot digital.

With film, there are other single use consumables like film.. duh.

Model.. ummm. no single use consumables at all.  Clothing can be reworn/sold/traded/whatever.

MUA, stuff is single use.

Guess it all comes down to this.

If you need to charge a fee, state up front.  If the person doesn't want to pay said fee.  Than find someone that will.  And when do you stop doing TFCD.  Whenever you feel like it.  Basicly you could be a 100 yr seasoned vet, and if you ant to do TFP than do it. Or don't.  Simple to me.

MUA Kitfee is reasonable.  It doesn't bother me. 

The Skill class Broken down by service in my view is this.

MUA -- is the ability to apply the makeup To the Photographers vision
The Photographer -- ablity to capture said vision/image
Model -- to stand around look pretty and follow direction.

Basicly thats it.

From what I understand. Trade for prints/cd is trading ones skillset for another, to where all benifet whom are involved.

If I has single use consumables, I might be a little differnt minded about it.  But I don't.  so this is how I see it for me.

It all comes down to those involved and how they want to treat it.  Nuff said.

WONDERFUL!!  WONDERFUL response!!  I especially like this part:

littlegett wrote:
MUA -- is the ability to apply the makeup To the Photographers vision
The Photographer -- ablity to capture said vision/image
Model -- to stand around look pretty and follow direction.

Very true!!  Best response yet!

Far West Imaging wrote:
For TFP/CD shoots, when I have a MUA also doing TFP/CD, I tell the models to bring their own makup or there is a $35-$50 kit fee (depending on the MUA and work being done).  Most models have no problem bringing their own.

This confuses me.  I cant imagine any good MUA would stand for using a models own makeup.  I wouldnt touch most models makeup.  I only use professional brands that a model wouldnt have in an every day makeup bag.

I also wouldnt charge a kit fee.  I only test with people that are at my level or "above" and I think if you are charging to "test" you arent testing at all.  What it sounds like to me is you are charging silly underhand rates for models portfolio shoots. Be...hey maybe thats just me.

and oooooooh i had to edit because I just read the polaroid comment!  I LOVE polaroids! I wish my whole book could be done in them hahaha! If only they werent so silly expensive.

I have to find a picture of a dress thats made out of potatoe sacks, its beautiful!  Itchy, but beautiful lol!

Lucy x

littlegett wrote:

MUA -- is the ability to apply the makeup To the Photographers vision
The Photographer -- ablity to capture said vision/image
Model -- to stand around look pretty and follow direction.

Basicly thats it.

From what I understand. Trade for prints/cd is trading ones skillset for another, to where all benifet whom are involved.

If I has single use consumables, I might be a little differnt minded about it.  But I don't.  so this is how I see it for me.

It all comes down to those involved and how they want to treat it.  Nuff said.

on real paid jobs (forget testing for a moment)   The one with the vision is the client.  Thats who the photographer, model and makeup artist have to please. 

I have to disagree with what a model brings to a shoot....standing around looking pretty doesnt cut it.   A model needs to sell your product, your clothing etc without saying a word.   Expression and movement are so important.  The model just like the photographer can make or break the shoot....I see her or him as essential to getting a usable shot.   Most "models" here on MM know just enough to look pretty and take direction but off the net, real models making real money have a lot of talent and really need very little direction if any.

Mary wrote:

on real paid jobs (forget testing for a moment)   The one with the vision is the client.  Thats who the photographer, model and makeup artist have to please. 

I have to disagree with what a model brings to a shoot....standing around looking pretty doesnt cut it.   A model needs to sell your product, your clothing etc without saying a word.   Expression and movement are so important.  The model just like the photographer can make or break the shoot....I see her or him as essential to getting a usable shot.   Most "models" here on MM know just enough to look pretty and take direction but off the net, real models making real money have a lot of talent and really need very little direction if any.

But we were talking about testing and such.. shezzzz blow everything out of context whydoncha L()L.

Standing around looking pretty is the easy way of saying what you said.  because if you want to start talking about the techniquals of each skillset.. than sure have fun.

I just breaking it down to the barest.

and

for 'paying' jobs there is no reason for anyone to freakout about a kitfee... because that would be included in the 'Job Fee'.  ya see. 

no wonder my mind reels when im on MM.  the change of direction is insain.

Mary wrote:
on real paid jobs (forget testing for a moment)   The one with the vision is the client.  Thats who the photographer, model and makeup artist have to please. 

I have to disagree with what a model brings to a shoot....standing around looking pretty doesnt cut it.   A model needs to sell your product, your clothing etc without saying a word.   Expression and movement are so important.  The model just like the photographer can make or break the shoot....I see her or him as essential to getting a usable shot.   Most "models" here on MM know just enough to look pretty and take direction but off the net, real models making real money have a lot of talent and really need very little direction if any.

I agree with this.

Now on a TFP deal, I feel TFP is TFP for all involved. Others have said it, but I will repeat it, I shoot digital (medium format digital $15,000 for digital back alone, no camera, no lens just the back). I have a studio, supply pop, water snacks even at TFP shoots. I buy props, backgroundsand so forth. This all ads up fast. I do not charge for TFP jobs. I do very few of them.

When I do TFP they are to build a part of my portfolio that needs work. I also am picky about my model and MUA. They all need to be of a caliber to help me. On a TFP every one should walk away with some thing they are proud of. That is why I am picky about them.

When you charge a fee it is no longer a TFP, it is a paid job. You report it as income on taxes (you do don't you?). You write off your expenses and mileage on your taxes. Do paid jobs, but charge a going rate for them not a nominal fee. Give a discounted fee to some if you wish, but value your work and invoice it at a full going rate and then put in a discount to show others the value of your work. I do an invoice up even for TFP to track time and expenses, but it still lists all the charges and then discounts them at the end to $0.00.

Long story short:
TFP=Free
$=Paid Job
$-Discount=Kit Free, but still qualifys as paid

Do not sell you self short, charge the going rate for your area. Give discounts only when it help you (portfolio, gettingan in with a top photographer, .....). Do TFP only if it greatly helps you.

Hamza wrote:

A great MUA will make shitty make-up look good...

A great Photog will make a Polaroid look good...

A great Model will make a Potato Sack look good...

If it's free, you use what you got.  If you don't like what they brought, use your own, but don't bitch about it.

TFP/CD means FREE!

You charge a Kit fee, then the photog charges a kit fee(batteries/expendables), then the model charges a kit fee(clothing), then you all end up paying each other and it works out to be free anyway.

Don't say TFP if it's not free...

MUA's, Models, and Photogs, make money from Clients!  Not each other.  If you are only making money from Models and Photogs, you are not utilizing your skills to their full potential.

you obviously ddon't have much experience. shitty makeup always looks shitty. your skills are as important as the quality of product you use.

FabioTovar wrote:
oh boy i fear responding because ill get bashed...probably by my number one fan and frequent basher Diva. you know who you are..

anyways.. the fee contradicts the whole TFCD terms.  its understood everyone is working for a cd and thats all.  most photographers have spent thousands on their equipment. ( yes to all you nay sayers thousands.  how much do you think the camera costs? add it lights? etc???) that wasnt to you poster it was a pre-emptive counter strike to the bashers that be.

anyways long story short. after having spent a lot on the equipment they may look at your fee and compare it to their costs and pass to look for someone who will not charge for tfcd.

if its an issue then don't announce your services as "tfcd" and say they can hire you for $50 with a cd in return.

Very good point. I agree.

Hamza wrote:
MUA's, Models, and Photogs, make money from Clients!  Not each other.

I hate to break it to you, but actually MUA's, Models, and Photogs *DO* make money from each other. A LOT.
Thank the internet for that.

Ibalu wrote:

I hate to break it to you, but actually MUA's, Models, and Photogs *DO* make money from each other. A LOT.
Thank the internet for that.

Well unfortunately for me. I have yet to make $.01 from any model mua or stylist. most of my shoots the $$$ has come out of my pocket and I have yet to see any profit in return. so in line with this thread I am not likely to hire anyone one who is in it for tfcd but charging me a kit fee.

I for one have learned a lot from the MM posts. the number 1 thing I have learned............. I have spent to much money and it is now time to make it back. I will thanks to MM I have come to realize there should be a limit to TFCD before saying.. ok.. now its time to start doing something with all the other shoots Ive had.
So I will no longer do TFCD and will seek ONLY paid work from now on.

I agree with the poster.. you cant do TFCD forever. do it for what you need and what you love.   but beyond that its also a love that costs a lot of money that you eventually have to start earning back or you'll go broke.

FabioTovar wrote:
I for one have learned a lot from the MM posts. the number 1 thing I have learned............. I have spent to much money and it is now time to make it back. I will thanks to MM I have come to realize there should be a limit to TFCD before saying.. ok.. now its time to start doing something with all the other shoots Ive had.
So I will no longer do TFCD and will seek ONLY paid work from now on.

I agree with the poster.. you cant do TFCD forever. do it for what you need and what you love.   but beyond that its also a love that costs a lot of money that you eventually have to start earning back or you'll go broke.

Yes Very true.  I will do TFP's don't get me wrong!  I'm all up for it if both the model and the photographer are incredible and if the photo's are really going to benefit me (such as making my book look incredible as well).  But if it's just a starting out model that is nervous in front of the cam and has no idea what the hell she is doing, then I will charge.  NO ONE can do TFP forever (no one should have to.)

Yisell wrote:

Yes Very true.  I will do TFP's don't get me wrong!  I'm all up for it if both the model and the photographer are incredible and if the photo's are really going to benefit me (such as making my book look incredible as well).  But if it's just a starting out model that is nervous in front of the cam and has no idea what the hell she is doing, then I will charge.  NO ONE can do TFP forever (no one should have to.)

Then thats not TFP is it? You said you will charge a "Kit Fee" for tfp shoots....but only if the model isnt super...then you are just charging really low rates for model portfolio shoots...if you are being paid it is TIME FOR MONEY...and a cd/prints chucked in as a bonus.