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models illegaly copying our images....
I'm 18 years old and i work at a walgreens here in az.... I'd also like to mention i work in the photo department. i constantly find beautiful women going over to the Kodak Picture Maker with there beautiful images trying to make copies without photographers permission. and boy do i enjoy giving them the "what the hell are you doing speech". i just don't get it...if they want copies why cant they go to the studio or photographer that created them and get copies that way or at least get a realease from the photographer... -James Jun 25 05 05:59 am Link With me, i'm like this... If you paid me to shoot you and I give you prints or a high res CD, knock yourself out. Better yet, I recommend models i've worked with to get reprints on their own because it's cheaper than going through me, for my price will be double, and i'm a nice guy. Besides, in most cases the model is either adding them to her portfolio or giving them to her BF/family/whatever, so why should I charge her for that? I only charge wedding pics and event coordinators for reprints anyway. Jun 25 05 06:03 am Link It's funny you should mention the copying of images situation...I was just about to post a thread, as an MUA, about how HARD it has been for me to get CDs from photographers. I've done 11 shoots in the past month and have only received 1 CD!!! I totally respect the photographer's rights, but it becomes increasingly difficult if they don't respect your time or the fact that this is a business for all concerned. I'm starting to get quite anxious about my work, because my only fee is a CD...I put out money for gas and tolls...and it seems like I am wasting my products on projects I cannot benefit from... I'll setup times to meet them in the city AND...they won't show up, or they'll say that they can snail mail me a CD...well...I have yet to receive any of them... I don't think it takes three weeks for a package to go from one part of the city to the next. It is quite discouraging. (I would like to note that most of them were from musecube) What do you think? Jun 25 05 06:24 am Link Posted by Monsante Bey: I agree with you. If the model is not selling them I don't worry too much about it. Jun 25 05 06:26 am Link I agree that if they paid for images on CD or film, and you've given them, I don't mind. And Nulani, I am continually surprised at the constant drumbeat of models not getting the images from photographers. It's not that hard. Maybe it's my own perspective. When I shoot in Cambodia or Bhutan or Laos, and tell even a street person that I'll send them prints, I find a way to get it to them as soon as I can. Besides reputation, there's also karma at work - if you don't honor your end of bargains, you'll be on the receiving end of the same. My biggest concern about giving CDs has been different than random copying, it's changing the image in a way that makes it worse, or not as intended. I've always given prints, not files, to my jazz clients, so that can't happen, and offer to provide files to printers as part of the up front price, so that I can be proud if my name appears with an image. Early on I gave files to a jazz musician, and then saw that on his web site he'd made changes to brightness and contrast on the images, using his own unprofiled monitor, and they looked ghastly. I found out when another jazz musician told me how much better my images were now than back when I shot the ones on the first guy's web site. It wasn't intentionally bad, just someone not as up on image processing doing their best, which wasn't very good. I hope the people I work with now don't find it too annoying that I insist that if they want to go print someplace, tell me and I'll re-profile the image to be optimized for that printer. I know I can't, and don't want to, be in the business of providing all following prints, but I do want anything that someone reproduces with my name attached to look as I intended. The process is a collaborative process, and both contributions should be preserved. Just as I wouldn't paste one model's face or expression on images of another - those things are their art - I don't want someone second guessing my imaging - that's my art. Maybe I'm too paranoid after one bad experience, but I've seen pictures on modeling sites that made me wonder if they are really as the photographer intended. Jun 25 05 07:01 am Link Posted by Nulani: if you were my MUA, you'd be on my priority list. It's hard to find a steady one in Ohio, and you have to take care of the people that take care of you. Jun 25 05 07:13 am Link Posted by Ed Nazarko: I don't even mind them editing as long as I get final approval. I have had only one model I had to "get on to" about it. After I explained, she was cool. Jun 25 05 07:42 am Link Dammit, these threads keep reminding me I owe three models CDs. I sent them e-mails with a dozen or so images, but I also promised them CDs. Maybe I should stop promising CDs and just say I'll e-mail them or put them on a secure web site. *sigh* So much to do, so little time. Jun 25 05 09:25 am Link I think the industry is headed towards flat-rate pricing with unlimited rights after that. A fee is paid for a shoot, after that, as someone said, "knock yourself out"! I don't see any other way. Jun 25 05 10:26 am Link >and really...what are they going to do with a copy made from a print on a flatbed scanner at Walgreens? I believe it's in response to the outrageous reprint fees charged by some studios. Now, of course, I've also had girls that wanted me to pay to shoot them, provide images, and then find out they're using (selling) them on their website. That's why I only shoot film...it's my original...and my insurance. Jun 25 05 10:54 am Link If you shoot raw and do not give out all the images then that is also insurance. Jun 25 05 10:57 am Link Posted by rp_photo: I do a flat rate and give a cd of all the work with logos on it - they can print it if they want as many times as they want. My logo is on it anyways. I can't beat 19 cents for a print. But if they want prints from the shoot that are studio quality at larger than 4x6 then they pay me for the print. Jun 25 05 11:22 am Link Posted by rp_photo: Only at the gutter end of the market. Jun 25 05 11:55 am Link Posted by rp_photo: I don't know what industry you're talking about but it's not one I ever want to be a part of. There's just that lil ole thing called COPYRIGHT, might want to look in to it Jun 25 05 12:07 pm Link Posted by Mike Cummings: I agree with you. If the model is not selling them I don't worry too much about it. Right but what if they are..... I think the biggest problem here is all us photogrpahers having different ideas of what anyone can or cannot do with the images we give them..... Jun 25 05 12:11 pm Link I think photographers fail to realize that art directors, clients and ad agents look through our books all the time. "Who Shot This?" is one thing I hear all the time....can we have his contact info? smart photographers understand that being on a good model or artists site is their best form of advertising. Photographers have sold photos from my site to clients, photographers have been given editorial jobs from my site on the work that I show, photographers have been hired for real jobs on pictures in my book and I know it's not just me, this hapens all the time. Even if you shoot great stuff, if the model or artist has to stalk you to get it, she is going to forget your name when the client says "WOW, Who shot this?" "ooops, John something, I can't remember right now, sorry." Jun 25 05 12:20 pm Link Posted by vanscottie: I don't know what industry you're talking about but it's not one I ever want to be a part of. There's just that lil ole thing called COPYRIGHT, might want to look in to it I'm not trying to pick a fight, and while I agree with you in principle and as a fellow photographer, there is lil ole something called REALITY that we all need to consider. Jun 25 05 12:31 pm Link RP is right - We have brought it on ourselves. I unlike some people who I have talked to am positive that I can't stop the future. I make a CD for a model with images that are only big enough for 4x6 with my logo on it. I have had a number of models who have called me from places like Walmart or Target who have said they couldn't get the image printed without a signed agreement with my logo on it. This is what I normally send out... As per my agreement with the client, all rights and privileges to reprint from this Compact Disk are available to the following people (INSERT NAME). The logo printed on the photograph should be printed with the images. All images are copyright protected by the artist and any unauthorized reprocution of these images will he pursued to the full extent of the law. Wicked Hailey Photography will make every effort to accommodate any reasonable request. CONTRACATING PARTY: (INSERT NAMES) DETAILS OF THE CONTRACT: (TYPE OF IMAGES ON THE CD) MY contact info and digital signature Jun 25 05 01:00 pm Link Posted by Brent Burzycki: Posted by Mike Cummings: If they are selling the image, then I file suit. Jun 25 05 02:27 pm Link Posted by Mary: Ouch! Careful who you tar with that brush please! Jun 25 05 02:42 pm Link Try having a model manipulate your photos with out your permission!! Jun 25 05 03:33 pm Link Posted by Monsante Bey: Posted by Nulani: if you were my MUA, you'd be on my priority list. It's hard to find a steady one in Ohio, and you have to take care of the people that take care of you. For reals. I've only worked with one MUA in San Francisco on three shoots and I made sure she got her CD lickity-split. Jun 25 05 03:46 pm Link Posted by Tim Bell: That there is grounds for maiming. Jun 25 05 03:49 pm Link alright then.....how do you feel about someone burning your pictures off the internet onto a disc..then going to wal-mart and making as many copies and prints as they want??? this happens all the time by the way... -James Jun 25 05 06:29 pm Link Posted by JamesPhotography: It may happen but I guarantee you that if they try and take a "net" image and print say an 8 x 10 print from Wal-Mart it will not be usable in anyone's port. Jun 25 05 06:43 pm Link if you were my MUA, you'd be on my priority list. It's hard to find a steady one in Ohio, and you have to take care of the people that take care of you. Hey there Mr. Bey! I've had several MUA's from the ohio area get ahold of me about using them, if you do need one sometime i could pass along their infro as soon as i can dig it out. My cousin has expereince in being a MUA so if i need one myself in this part of the state i have to use her, otherwise she'd try to kill me (again). Jun 25 05 08:35 pm Link Posted by JamesPhotography: Photographers give you a CD for tfp shoots. What do you expect her to do? Hardly any phototags give you actual prints. So if you want them for your portfolio book as an example of your work then you need copies. Most phototags also don't live around the block to go and get them to somehow make you copies. Half the time you're lucky to get your CD in a timely manner to be able to use them. Some phototags I have not received the CD's at all till months to a half year later and some not at all. (very thankful to the ones that do actually give you the CD's to be useful). Jun 26 05 01:20 am Link Posted by studio 51: if you were my MUA, you'd be on my priority list. It's hard to find a steady one in Ohio, and you have to take care of the people that take care of you. Hey there Mr. Bey! I've had several MUA's from the ohio area get ahold of me about using them, if you do need one sometime i could pass along their infro as soon as i can dig it out. My cousin has expereince in being a MUA so if i need one myself in this part of the state i have to use her, otherwise she'd try to kill me (again). Well I have 2 in Cleveland, but i'm in Columbus. Some of my shoots take place on Sundays and one of the best ones here doesn't work on a Sunday, so if you know one that works on Sundays in Columbus, givit. Jun 26 05 05:40 am Link I always have a release when I am getting prints... Usually they REQUIRE that they have a copy before they will even start the process. But I have had some photographers that don't even use releases (which I find completly absurd for their saftey, as well as mine). I've had a photographer write a note giving me permission to print photographs... Jun 26 05 11:14 am Link From a "test shoot" I give low res images on cd and (4) 8x12 prints. The prints are for their book. The low res are for the internet use. If they want more prints I charge for them. If they paid me for a shoot, I give them prints based on what they paid me for. I only sell full res CD's to clients other than models. It is usually based on the probablitiy of return purchasing. Example, I shoot dance competitions. They usually buy everything the day of, or the few weeks after the event. I won't sell a full res cd untill a few months after the event. The reason I don't sell full res cd's to models is more to do with them showing bad images. I only want the best images to be shown by models, and many do not know what a good image looks like. Again, if they pay me, they can have what ever they want. If it is a "test shoot" they get low res images for internet and (4) 8x12's. A TFP shoot is not really something I do, or have ever done. As a photographer, I do not see the value of giving away full res images on cd, and prints, and what ever else some photographers do. That is not part of my business model. I think beginning photographers do TFP and become imprisoned by it never being able to ever do paying work. As for copyrights, I grew up working with models and doing test shoots, and it was always understood that what ever I gave the model, she could use to promote herself. If I gave her low res images, she could use them how she wanted. If I gave her 8x12 prints, she could make copies if she wanted. I won't get rich from the money a model may pay me, so I don't try to. A model/photographer relationship usually becomes a friendship, as such, it's easier to let it be known that you don't mind her making copies. She will do it anyway, and hide from you if you say it bothered you. That is the reality. A client on the other hand, is only going to use your images for potential financial gain. Any copyright abuse by a company, I take very seriously. Jun 26 05 12:12 pm Link Posted by piers: Posted by Mary: Ouch! Careful who you tar with that brush please! You have a great point. However.....a good makeup artist and a good model would never use a photo that would embarrass the photographer because if its not a great shot they don't want it in their book either. So the question is, how do you know who to trust? look at their current portfolios, are there crappy embarrassing shots displayed? if so their judgment is in question and you need to keep control of your shots. If you're dealing with a pro that would never put a crappy shot in their book, I wouldn't worry about it. Jun 26 05 12:14 pm Link Posted by Nulani: It's not just MUA, it happens to models to. I feel your pain. And yes, each shoot, including TFP/CD costs money! Jun 26 05 12:36 pm Link Posted by jessicaclaire: lol, did he then pin it on his shirt? Jun 26 05 01:09 pm Link Posted by Nulani: hire slugworth as your manager/agent Jul 25 05 08:39 pm Link Posted by JamesPhotography: I run my dpi up to 500, then size the images to 580 dpi high. They look real good in emails or posted on a models website, but if they try to print them, they are about like big postage stamps. This has stopped the printing problem. My images here on the MM have been also sized this way. Jul 26 05 01:19 am Link I'm sure like everybody else I've seen my images on the web -not even my model/just my photo, and with my models, my shots 'colorized' etc. - I'm not going to sweat it - UNLESS Sony uses one of my shots without permission Jul 27 05 03:18 pm Link |
