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Photographers who undercharge for their work.
I stumbled across an interesting forum discussion at sportsshooter.com about photographers who are undercharging for their work while shooting events such as NASCAR races. It seems to reflect a lot of what I've read around here. It was an interesting read from a different industry. http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_di … ?tid=16444 Jul 01 05 12:09 pm Link I've read sometimes ago that many of the sportshooters, especially the ones shooting NFL sometimes or often shoot for almost free, because they love to be part of that scene. Jul 01 05 12:22 pm Link Posted by Udo R Photography: I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I don't shoot to make a living. I've already made my living. I shoot because I love it. More often than not, I'll shoot what would normally be a paying gig in exchange for some other non-cash compensation. It makes things easier for budget-constrained projects, I have a good time, and I make great friends who feel that I've done them a great favor. Jul 01 05 02:05 pm Link Posted by Chris Ambler: Can't agree more on that. I make a living with a "real" job too... Everything else is fun. And it helps me being independent and free in my thoughts.. No one else to ask but myself... Jul 01 05 02:11 pm Link But is that fair to those who have chosen to make Photography a full-time profession. That seems to be similiar to if you were an engineer and your employer terminated you because he could contract someone who did for the joy of doing it. Jul 01 05 02:21 pm Link Well in CA we have a shortage of nurses now. Why, because hospitals cut hours and hired physicians assistants. Now, after it turns out that nurses are necessary, many people stopped going to school to learn nursing or changed professions and we have a shortage. I know of photographers who charge $50 for headshots, one of whom really does live in his car. I know a photographer who every weekend charges $500 for headshots, and he is worth every penny. I know a photographer who has to shoot weddings cause she can't make any money off her headshot's cause of the $50 photographers Jul 01 05 02:26 pm Link Posted by Chris Ambler: Posted by Udo R Photography: I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I don't shoot to make a living. I've already made my living. I shoot because I love it. More often than not, I'll shoot what would normally be a paying gig in exchange for some other non-cash compensation. It makes things easier for budget-constrained projects, I have a good time, and I make great friends who feel that I've done them a great favor. I shoot to make a living... didn't take that step in over 20 years... now I am loving it... I am living sometimes on the financial fringe... lol... because I don't charge for all projects I am doing, or very little... I mostly work deals with people etc... as long as I have enough to cover my living expenses... I am good... yet, I also know that it pays in the long run... very well... and a handfull of highly paid gigs, let's me help even more people for even less because expenses are covered from the big ones. Jul 01 05 02:27 pm Link As a "tactic" I'm not charging as much as other photographers, I'm trying to get my name out there and living in L.A., photographers are a dime a dozen. As my popularity grows....so will my fees. As many others have written, I have a regular career and photography as a secondary. However, I have to be realistic and start charging more....my equipment wasn't free and the intent was to buy it so that it would eventually pay for itself. Bottom line is I love the art of photography and like my father would sell his paintings....I too would love to sell my photos! Jul 01 05 02:28 pm Link Posted by George Butler: Actually that is happening in software market now - Open source vs commercial software Jul 01 05 02:29 pm Link I'm not sure fair is the right word, but it isn't helpful to have people giving away what I charge to do. But then, if I needed a photograph and someone produced a decent, usable one for free, why wouldn't I use the free one? I do a lot of pro bono work and often wonder why I give my services for free when the phone company, the landlords, the utilities, etc. etc. charge full price, and get paid! The reality I think is photography isn't taken seriously by and large. Its become too simple to get a usable image thanks to all the auto cameras that do a very good job. We photographers will always have work with the big agency people in the commercial world, but I think the time is coming when smaller, local jobs are being shot in house or done in exchange for goods and/or services. Engineers and others don't have our problem! Jul 01 05 02:30 pm Link Posted by Star: I don't shoot weddings... I also don't understand why people look down on wedding photographers. Jul 01 05 02:31 pm Link I think what I've been taking away from the previous discussions on this is that I would do well to work to improve my skills so that I can be "worthy" to take on commercial photography and make some money at it. I am technically one of those guys that has a primary job, does this for fun, and uses a D-Rebel. Basically a hobbyiest. However, I would like to do it more regularly and work it into something I can make some income from. From what I am seeing, the internet photographer's career path shoudn't stop with photographing internet models but get more involved with using this resource to gain leverage at getting work from land-based agencies and clients. I think having internet photographers and models work with each other is a very good thing because it potentially helps both parties improve their skills. But I don't see that we are each other's primary income or career when we are at this stage. We each need to think past that and work toward breaking into something bigger than that. And as we do, we need to not drastically undercut the other professionals and hurt the profession itself. Jul 01 05 02:31 pm Link Posted by Weldphoto: There is the king of runway photography, Dan Lecca. I have met him at Fashionweek. Jul 01 05 02:36 pm Link Many people are now undercharging because there are so many photographers now a these days, that they are expendable. There is hard competition out there, so many people have to undercharge to get the job. Jul 01 05 05:27 pm Link yeah we do...but i'm not an engineer. i'm in architecture. we just don't get paid for the hours of overtime we usually charge for projects. so that we are right on budget. shit, 60-80 hour weeks aren't unheard of, man... and there are others who underbid us as well, then they find out it actually takes (fill in blank here) hours to REALLY meet the deadline. by that time, we've exhausted all the budget! the grass isn't greener on the other side, folks... Posted by Weldphoto: Jul 01 05 05:49 pm Link I'm get'n something. If a model doesn't want to pay she'll have to wait and piggy back on a shoot when a model is paying, but then she might only get 3 or 4 websized only images. My attitude has been - I DON'T HAVE TO SHOOT YOU - it's not the greatest attitude but it works, look at my book. In two years I think I've made huge strides in my market with no promotions, only word of mouth. Holla Jul 01 05 05:58 pm Link Posted by Chris Ambler: Posted by Udo R Photography: So yes, Udo's got it spot on. Many photographers put art and enjoyment ahead of cash. Models do too! At least this one Posted by Star: Jul 01 05 08:19 pm Link A very good friend and supurb photographer once told me, "A client asked me to shoot a couple of product shots for the lowest cost. I told the Client I could give him good shots in one hour or I could give him great shots in three. He paid for three." I guess when a photographer can guarantee (by the samples of his work) to give the client (Model, Commercial, or otherwise) what they need, the cost isn't too high because the return on investment is higher. For what it's worth... Mike Jul 01 05 09:05 pm Link Posted by Sara Green: Posted by Chris Ambler: Posted by Udo R Photography: So yes, Udo's got it spot on. Many photographers put art and enjoyment ahead of cash. Models do too! At least this one Posted by Star: Jul 01 05 09:09 pm Link Posted by Star: When I was little, I thought I would be a big commedian on late night TV. But now I'm 32 and as you can see I'm not. Oh well. It sucks to be me. It sucks to be me. It sucks to broke and unemployed and turning 33. It sucks to be me. by Udo: Personally, I don't look down on wedding photographers; I look down on photographing weddings--because it sucks! Having a photojournalistic style is great, but unlike any other event in creaation, emotions are unbelievably high, and any tiny mistake on your part can be blown completely out of proportion--and it takes intestinal fortitute to deal with that. I shoot headshots for cash, and if I screw that up, I redo the shoot. No big deal. Can't tell that to a bride. Jul 01 05 09:24 pm Link Posted by * Visual Mindscapes *: "If you can do something better than anyone else, you will not have any competition." Jul 01 05 10:03 pm Link Why does it always come to this in these photography forums, no matter what site you're on? There are two aspects to photography: one is creativity, some call it art, but really it's the urge to be creative, whether it pays or not; the other is the business side, where it only matters whether you can satisfy your client. If you want to make money, get used to the business, which is hard and plagued by the fact that everybody wants to be a photographer. I used to be a foreign correspondent, another one of those jobs that sounds cool and attracts a lot of young kids willing to do the job for less. But with a young family, I had to make money, so I moved on and those young journalists now have the jobs, until they're 'expensive.' Do I think I'd be better than the newcomers? Sure. Much better. But it doesn't matter if the 'client' - in this case the newspapers back home - don't know the difference between experience and ignorance. Same in photography, where often the client doesn't know the difference between a great shot and a mediocre shot. Jul 01 05 11:06 pm Link Posted by JvR:
Jul 01 05 11:32 pm Link Posted by Udo R Photography: Posted by Star: I don't shoot weddings... I also don't understand why people look down on wedding photographers. I shoot because I love it, but also as a living. I don't believe in doing any work that I don't love. Jul 01 05 11:35 pm Link I recently quoted for a job with a large international company only to be told that I was too expensive. The guy they hired did the work for 500% less than I was charging. How do I know, after they got his work they came back to me and asked me to shoot it again at my rate. The chairman of the companies don't wotk for peanuts. so why should I. Jul 02 05 08:22 am Link Posted by jmc: The same thing happens to me. I've ended up doing photo sessions for Sweet 16s and such because they were so unhappy with what they received from the first photographer they hired. He was changing way, way, less then I charge. I end up doing quite a bit of clean up after bad photographers. I acutally like them! Makes me look better. lol Jul 02 05 11:56 am Link Posted by Chaz: ditto. I know i undercharge. what am i supposed to do, i still consider myself fairly young and growing (and might always feel this way). As I build up a real name, I'll raise my fees. Maybe by that time I won't have to LOOK for work. Jul 06 05 03:18 am Link Here is my 10 cents (used to be 2 but with the current rise in oil I have increased my overhead and thus passed it on) I shoot for a living, commercially, I have had both sides of the fence to deal with I have bid jobs and been undercut by the local guy who is a is a part timer and offered to do the job so cheep that I would have to pay to do the gig and I have bid to low of Jobs and lost due to the fact that the agency wanted to spend the dollars to get the right job done. Now my rates are firm I start at x dollars per day and go up to x dollars period, all depending on the gig, all other fee are additional. I hold my ground and deliver my work on time and good quality I cannot compete with a small shop I have to much overhead but always tell my prospective clients that if you go with someone cheaper you will be back to me later. (Which has happened countless times before). If its something that I want to do to add to my portfolio or something I have never shot before I will look to do it at a much cheaper rate. Now when it comes to auto racing I am one who will look to do the work for close to free to be there so I understand the NFL guys. On the other side of the coin many of those Images can be worth a tremendous amount of dollars which a photographer might end up with so you never know how you can make some income. Jul 06 05 10:38 am Link A few comments on this thread... 1. You Get What You Pay for. This applies to many things in life. These days I will balance the cost of something against serivce/quality/professionalism -- it's called VALUE. 2. Some people undercharge because they just dont know any better. You can try to educate them - sometimes it works, sometimes not. 3. Trying to compete on price leads to you getting screwed in the end. You have to compete on Value. 4. Clients are getting cheaper and cheaper - and they are willing to use "Good Enough" images. At some point I hope there's a backlash and Quality becomes important again. Might not happen though... Jul 06 05 02:05 pm Link Just my thoughts, I've been making my living for the past 19 years as a photographer. I charge based on my overhead and profit margin needed for the lifestyle I desire. What the next man charges to up to him. If he undercuts everyone else, he won't be in business long. I never worry about the other guys business practices, they're his problems. Jul 06 05 02:30 pm Link I've occasionally cut myself short on what to charge, and I fired the guy, since it was me, I had to re-hire him. I just recently did some work for a lady & she asked "How much do I owe ya"? I told her a price and (00) her eyes were bugged & she said, "It that all"? I knew then, (gulp).. I had undercharged for my work - but, since I make my living shooting freelance for newspaper's, I justified it,.. that time. I also passed up shooting the PGA, and let the "retired" guy that "likes" it and would do for "free" have that chance. Man, I'm giving FREElance a BAD name LOL.... Jul 06 05 02:46 pm Link Some shoot for $, some shoot for hobby. I myself shoot for hobby. Photographers that shoot for money that have no talent will starve, I know some photographers that do great work for a small price and some do crappy work and charge a fortune. It is all up to the client, what are they looking for and so on. Don't bash the photographers that charge less or nothing at all just because they have talent. Work your butt off and you will get your rewards. Honest, Intelligent Effort is always rewarded. Jul 06 05 02:59 pm Link Man, I still work for free. I would have felt to guilty charging for the sub par camera I was working with prior to my new one. As far as a photographer charging for "crappy" work...one mans crap is anothers fortune. Saying someones work is crap is VERY subjective, just because YOU don't like it doesn't mean there aren't thousands who do. I look at art people drool over and pay huge money for and it looks to me like someone just had a seizure with a piantbrush, its all subjective. Jul 06 05 03:18 pm Link I can't make a living shooting fashion or glamor right now... I know this, so I work for next to nothing if not TFCD/TFP. Now think about the event photography I do, and make a good buck doing. Why do people pay me for that crap, because it sells... Art is a very limited expression, so people like yours others don't. trying to compair art to the cable company is crazy, some people don't have cable; because it costs to much for what they need, why pay when I get TV for free. It's about what your work add's to the value of someones life. I treasure my wedding photo's, even though I'm divorced now... and feel real good about having a friend take pictures then paying some photographer to take them for me... If you can charge to do photography great... I don't feel right doing it. But I will clean your PC of spyware for $125 hr. anytime, and feel great about it. Because you couldn't do it, thats why you hired me too, and I can do a great job of it, giving me a sense of pride in my work. But maybe you should ask your sisters kid, he might be able to fix your PC... if not it's $250 to fix what he did to it....  Jul 06 05 03:55 pm Link Its not really a matter of how much a photographer charges but rather his talent. I know many photographers who give they're work away and i still get more jobs than they do. Just do what you do and do it well and the rest will fall into place. Jul 06 05 04:09 pm Link Cristan... You're a man of few but, intelligent words. I don't know you, but I like you already. Mike Jul 06 05 04:43 pm Link It seems as though anyone with a lot of money can go out and buy a high end camera and then call him/herself a photographer. If they learn the basics, shoot outdoors in natural sunlight with the camera on automatic, they can still get some quality pictures. I think these are the people that make it hard for y'all to make a living as a photographer. You spend so much time learning your craft and then they come along and undercut you. They post their 40 good images on sites and people don't know it took them 1,000,000 tries to get them, and models like me sit for them (yes... for free a lot of the times) thinking they'll get something good and get nothing for it at all. All the while a "real" photographer is sitting in his studio waiting for someone to pay him what he's worth. Jul 06 05 04:46 pm Link I am a Digital Media Consultant and do many things for a living because no one thing brings full time pay. They include photography, children book publishing, production sound for films, studio recording for animation, internet software development, AV installation design, HD film production, post production video and sound editing, and many other services. I shoot a number of TFCD model shoots, always with a MUA, for portfolio display only. We in turn then use those images to get some more mundane work. The TFCD work is always 150-200% and helps get us full pay for the more mundane and actually easier projects which are done at 100%. Often I get better paying work from traveling than from local opportunities. Jul 06 05 04:59 pm Link Posted by Brizz: Unfortunately, there are lots of no-talent photographers who make a very good living. Jul 06 05 09:01 pm Link Posted by Little Rachael: I know of people who have very expensive cameras, and use them often. These same people have never produced 1 image I thought looked any better than something my dog can do with a P&S. Jul 06 05 10:18 pm Link |
I'm a sucker for artists, even though several of the artists I volunteered for sold each work at $12k+ 
