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Should photographers warn their clients?
As I was looking at these forums I was reminded of an experience I had about two years ago. I had a client, Angela, who wanted help completing her portfolio. She was a beautiful girl with all the right assets to work in both high fashion and commercial print. Shortly after we completed her portfolio she signed with an agency and was getting booked. The two of us had a great relationship and she became a source of referrals for me. One of her referrals, Mindy, wanted me to do the same thing with her portfolio as I had done with Angela. Mindy sent me an âin processâ portfolio so I could make some suggestions on what kind of shots we needed. Mindy was pretty but not even close to being in the same class as Angela. I was concerned that Mindy thought all she was missing was the right shots. Trying to do the right thing, I had a conversation with Mindy about her career goals. She explained that she and Angela had always planned to go into modeling together and she explained how much she liked my work and that is why she chose me as a photographer. When I tried to explain how expensive this whole process would be (secretly hoping she would back out) she came back with, âIâm making an investment in myself.â I did the shoot and many others like it with girls who I am confident have no chance of recouping the money they spent on me. Every time I came across one of these young women I would give a little speech about how hard this industry can be to break into but that seemed to leave them more resolved not less to spend a bunch of money on their portfolio. I have felt guilty about it ever since. Should I have been more upfront about them wasting money on photos that were unlikely to help or should I just do my job and let them worry about their own careers? Iâm looking to hear from both photographers and models. Feb 10 09 11:28 am Link if you're in a position to turn away paying customers... then by all means, do... Feb 10 09 11:32 am Link I tell them that I don't take a stance one way or another. It's not my job, it's not my choice, and it's not my responsibilty to say "you can make it" or "I'm sorry you're too short." I do my job, the agency does theirs. Feb 10 09 11:34 am Link I believe you have an obligation to provide them with your professional opinion, hopefully in a way that won't be seen as critical or make them defensive. All my paying clients (photography and web design) get the maximum expert opinion that I can provide. They don't always listen (and I do my best to couch it in terms that they can listen to, but just the same...). Just as I advise clients not to have a splash page on their website (it acts as a barrier to entry, not good for SEO, etc) but ultimately create one for them if they wish, I advise clients that just because the photos come out well artistically will not necessarily get them paying jobs but still shoot them if they request. Feb 10 09 11:35 am Link If you're doing book work for a client, you're consulting and you owe it to them to provide them with valid advice. It sounds like you may have not been as solid or forthright as was called for given the situation, but you *did* warn them. I find that it works to ask what markets the model's interested in and if they target a market that they're bad for, let them know up-front. "i'd expect you to find almost no work in fashion at your height, but catalog or fit could be an option" Feb 10 09 11:39 am Link you cant be the judge in every case. I say shoot them all let the agencies sort em out... Feb 10 09 11:43 am Link Alfiere wrote: What is the difference between 'modeling schools' who prey on hopes and your attitude? Feb 10 09 11:47 am Link Justin Small wrote: If they want to pay to shoot with you then by all means, don't worry about if they will "make it" that's not your problem. Give them professional photos so that they can take to an agency put on their myspace, whatever... If they make it good for you if they don't well... Feb 10 09 11:48 am Link Justin Small wrote: That sounds very subjective to me, especially as you haven't posted pics of either Mindy or Angela. Feb 10 09 11:48 am Link Alfiere wrote: i agree here... shoot everyone... Feb 10 09 11:49 am Link Justin Small wrote: You're just the photographer. If people have faith in themselves, and want to pay for a shoot, then by all means, do it! You're not promising them money and fame. I think its great that you give them a little insight to how hard it can be for them. Thats something you dont even have to do. Its not like your telling them "you look great, you'll be a big star". Modeling schools lead people to believe that when they leave, they will be rich and famous. They are paying for your expertise and skill, so dont feel bad for doing your job. Like someone else said, "your not an agency" Feb 10 09 11:53 am Link Right. Oh, and clothing stores should not sell an item to a customer if they feel it does not look good on that customer. Oh, and restaurants should not serve a dish to a customer if they feel it has too many calories for them. Oh oh, and car dealers should refuse to sell a car to anyone that does not have the personality for that type of car. Should I continue, or have I beaten it into your head?! Feb 10 09 11:53 am Link If you coach Little League you are under no obligation to make every kid that wants to play MLB able to do it. I hate to see them wander around under false impressions, but if they want the photographs do them. It is just like trying to help them make the Big Leagues. If they don't have it they will find someone out there blunt enough to tell them. Really it just our job to do the photographs, tell them it is tough, and wish them well. Feb 10 09 11:53 am Link It's my job to make them look.End of story. Feb 10 09 11:58 am Link I don't shoot people to help them advance in their careers (or delusions), so I can't relate to your feelings of guilt for doing business. Nor can I predict anyone's future. But it got me wondering... should wedding photographers warn their clients about who they're marrying or about marriage in general? Do they feel guilty when the wedding ends in divorce? Feb 10 09 11:59 am Link as a Photographer and human being you are bound to certain ethics. It is your decision to remain in the ethical world and let Karma stay its course or be a unethical money hungry low life ass. There are other options for signed models homely friend, and it is your obligation to inform her that 1 in 10,000 get signed, or you can join the dregs of society manipulating young girls impossible & delusional dreams of success for a profit. Feb 10 09 11:59 am Link Reindeerworks wrote: You would have no problem taking $5,000 from some one who thinks they are going to make it back by modeling and not even mention that it is not likely. A lot you you seem to believe that it is even ok to lead models to beleave they have a better chance than they do just to turn a buck. Feb 10 09 12:05 pm Link Kelly Watkins wrote: I think the key diffence is the idea that they are going to break into modeling due to the skill of the photographer. I don't think anyone believes that a photographer is going to make your marriage work but many do believe finding the right photographer is all that stands in their way of making a future career work. Feb 10 09 12:08 pm Link Some photographers wish they had problems like yours.You are realistic enough about their prospects beforehand: you're not being dishonest. Unless you're not depending on it for a living, your job is to take pictures. Feb 10 09 12:08 pm Link Justin Small wrote: I think you are doing the right thing by sharing your knowledge about and experience in the industry. Some people will still believe, regardless of what you tell them (or warn them about). It's all you can do. Unless you want to turn them away, in which case, they will find someone else to take the photos. Feb 10 09 12:12 pm Link Warn them gently as you do. Then create great images that they will treasure in their old age. Feb 10 09 12:14 pm Link I don't want to be rude to you but who are you to judge who can and can not make it in modeling? There are many different agencies for many different looks. A look someone wants today might not be the look someone else wants tomorrow. Plus never underestimate the power of good makeup, hair styling, costuming, etc. A model will fail to make it when she decides to stop trying. I have met models who have been told no over and over, one in particular for 3 years. He just signed with LA Models and NTA. Now tell me, should he have stopped trying 3 years ago because someone like you told him no? I think it is very arrogant of you to feel that you are in a position to judge who can and cannot make it. You are a working photographer. You should do your job and take good pictures. Let the models decide if they are going to quit or keep trying. Feb 10 09 12:48 pm Link Mark Salo wrote: Sounds like a good balance to me. Feb 10 09 12:51 pm Link Justin Small wrote: i smell bs... lots of bs... Feb 10 09 12:56 pm Link I understand the idea that you'd want to be upfront and honest, but I don't think you should feel guilty for several reasons: 1. You, nor I, nor any other photographers, are not the end-all, be-all judge of whom is going to succeed in the modeling world and who isn't. There are many different agencies that are held in high regard, and some models who wouldn't make it through one, would make it in another. 2. Not every model has the same definition of success. Some may consider a fulltime job with an agency success, while others might thing an occassional paid job pretty successful. 3. You probably won't be the ONLY photographer the model shoots with. Unless you are touting your services as "Guaranteed to get you signed with an agency", there is no reason to think that you are going to make or break a single model. Keep shooting. That's all you (we) can do. If someone ASKS your honest opinion on their chances, tell them the truth; sometimes it's not about looks, photos, or the best planned and executed portfolio. Sometimes it's about luck, a LOT of times it's about networking, and there probably is a dash of fate (if one believes) tossed in for good measure. My 2 pennies, RMT Feb 10 09 01:02 pm Link Your job is to take and edit good photographs, not give career/life advice. Don't beat yourself up about it. Feb 10 09 01:04 pm Link I try not to blow any smoke up their rear, but who knows what goes on in the heads of agency bookers? I see some of their "inds" and go WFT while they turn away talent thats way better. It's all about their need to fill a nitch and what they think they can sell. Feb 10 09 01:07 pm Link I think it just has to do with what makes you feel good about yourself. If, by giving them an honest disclaimer, you feel you've done all you can to inform them and they still wan to proceed... well, that's more than a lot of people do. All you can do at that point is try to do the best job you can to prove yourself wrong. If that happens you can feel that the job you did for them was even more worthwhile since it helped provide that bit extra that they needed to make it. And with marginal models the photos can help, everything helps at that point. The 6' 115lb blondes who are 70% leg are going to be fine so long as you do a halfway decent job. This is why I like working with younger models, I feel like maybe with some decent help at the outset they'll have a better chance... of course I generally don't charge those girls because it would make me feel bad about myself... lol... but this isn't my full-time job so I have that luxury. Full disclosure... then take their money... it's a living. Feb 10 09 01:08 pm Link Personally If any female model under 5'7 ( or guys under 5'10 ) came to me ,told me that thier goal was fashion modelling - I would be straight up honest with her and tell them that it was highly unlikely that she would succeed If they still wanted to pay me for a test shoot - I would accept the $ Feb 10 09 01:08 pm Link Many people on MM use modeling, photography, make up artist, photoshop wizard, etc... As a creative outlet in their lives. Everyone has a dream and some people actually work to achieve them. You are a photographer and you make images of whatever you want to. If this young woman is paying you to make images of her, then all you have to do is make the best images you can with her. Let her sort out her goals and dreams. Maybe she might prove you wrong? Feb 10 09 01:10 pm Link PashaPhoto wrote: I think you are over reacting. I didn't say I charged that much I was just throwing out that number to see if the amount one charges makes a difference. I think my bill after I was all done Mindy spent about $1,300. I think that was a fair price for the number of fully edit shots and the number of locations plust time editing. Still a lot of money. I have complete confidence that I could have charged a lot more in many cases. Some people have no idea what they should be spending and what it is worth. It can be really easy as a photographer to take advantage of some one who is unwittingly chasing their dreams. Which is kinda the whole point of this post. If I could have conviced her to pay more is it ethical to do so? Finally, I just joined mm and have no idea about any unholy world. Hopefully, I can find and connect with people who love my work and apprecaite my talent. Feb 10 09 01:11 pm Link I've had very short very round women inquire about hiring me to build them portfolios so they can get work as plus models. I've always said that while I'd be happy to shoot them, they should also consider talking to the agencies first, before they spend any money, to see if it will be appropriate for them to do so. That way I'm not the one telling them that they're not going to get signed, but I am sending them to the people they'll have to talk to eventually - before they drop a big wad of cash on something that can't help them. If someone just wants pretty pictures, and doesn't have any illusions about it, then great. Let's shoot. But I'm not interested in being part of any kind of deception. I've got a career that supports me. I don't need to foster anybody's illusions in order to eat. Feb 10 09 01:17 pm Link It's wrong to do the opposite ... all but promise results just to book business. Many photographers and fake agencies do exactly that -- deliberately create the illusion that their paid shoot is going to lead to the big time. I also think it's a pretty dark gray area if you knowingly allow the mistaken perception to exist that your photos are going to lead to paid work. But you say you're not doing that. Instead, you're going out of your way to make sure that models know that they will be spending money and may never get it back. To answer your question: I see nothing wrong with helping someone you think won't make it build a good port so they can at least give it a shot. Nor do I see anything wrong with offering your opinion of someone's chances if asked. But why step on someone's dream if you're not asked? Guilt? Over what? Shoot what you're paid to shoot to the best of your ability. Business is about selling what someone wants. Not what they should want. Feb 10 09 01:27 pm Link I don't think you've done anything unethical unless you feed her a line of bs about how your pictures will get her signed in order to make the sale. Why are you shooting portfolios for unsigned models anyway? Feb 10 09 01:36 pm Link You are a photographer first and life coach second  Help her with her pictures... make them the best they can be. Even the hottest girls with the "right" look have fierce competition earning a living as a model. Do your part by saying, "ok, its a crazy industry thats hard to get into, but lets create some wicked pictures and see what you can do" Dont burst her bubble...Feb 10 09 01:59 pm Link Justin Small wrote: for some, this is a business & these people should treat it that way. if this is how you make your living, why would you turn down money? i have seen people spend waaaay more than 5 grand on hopes & dreams. that's how businesses MAKE money. the hopes & dreams of others for profit. rogaine, viagra, salads @ McDonalds. all based on hopes & dreams. all making money. Feb 10 09 02:10 pm Link How many times has someone, a friend, a family member, a complete stranger, told you something couldn't be done. You can't do that. It will never work. That's not how they operate. There's no chance. That's impossible. Whether someone succeeds or not, is up to their own creativity and persistence. On the other hand accepting this advice is a guaranteed plan for living a life of relative failure. Feb 10 09 02:15 pm Link THe market will determine the commercial success of the model. I tell all of the models that I work with that this is a job like anything else. You are going to have work very hard to succeed since the competition is high. If you provide them with exceptional pictures you have fullfilled your agreement with the model. I never try to be an agent. Based on what you see today in print almost anything goes regarding looks that may be in demand. Feb 10 09 02:21 pm Link as I see it, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a photographers job is to take photos that the client is happy with. That's what we're paid to do. I wouldn't be saying 'man, you're gonna be big..." to someone who is obviously not, but I wouldn't turn down work either. It's my job to take photos. It's not my place to crush dreams. Feb 10 09 02:22 pm Link Justin Small wrote: $1,300? Shit. A top photog from Miami (not exaggerating) offered me a full portfolio shoot/images for $500 and he has gotten numerous girls signed. Feb 10 09 02:24 pm Link |
