Cuervo79 wrote:
I'm quite new at trying to make photography my day job, I know I'm not making enough effort to look for clients, which frustrates me when I see a web page or something printed and see photos that "I can take better", you can't be blunt to a prospective client and tell them "hey you've got crappy photos, I can take better if you hire me", I've called to some of these clients and offered them my services, only to get no reply from them or the "yes we have you on our database we will contact you if we need you". A friend of mine has told me "dude you not only have to call them you have to make an appointment and bring the point across", but me being a bit shy that's a hard thing to do repetitively.
I'm also jealous of some photographers in my country that are actually working, and when I see their work I find them sub par to what I would expect if I hired a photographer for something commercial. Specially when I asked one and I get an ignorant reply to things I would think are important, for example: freezing action with a studio strobe I get the reply "yeah you use your shutter speed and your ISO" (no he doesn't have new pocket wizards nor was he able to explain himself more), to that I start thinking WTF is wrong with this guy he's apparently already living off photography and answers this.
I have read in here and in other forums, that sometimes the key is to learn to sell yourself, because in the end even if your work speaks for itself, if people don't know about you they can't hire you.
What I don't get is when I see supposedly big clients with crappy photos, like a chain of hotels. I mean is it that they're cheap? Don't they know any better? Like I said I wish I could tell them directly that their photos suck, so hire me to take better ones. Anyone know a diplomatic way of saying that?

The weekend didn't really help, it just made me sulk again and again on the points I've written. What have you guys done in order to get out of that rut and go on the offensive?

Nobody care if you think their photos suck. I guarantee no matter how good your photos are, somebody else will think your photos suck. What does that accomplish? You don't get jobs by telling clients they are idiots.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Nobody care if you think their photos suck. I guarantee no matter how good your photos are, somebody else will think your photos suck. What does that accomplish? You don't get jobs by telling clients they are idiots.

Yes, I know that. That is exactly why I have not said a thing.

Your answer reminds me of something extra. How does one know if the work is really that bad? Is it me trying to lie to myself or am I right? Do clients love the "ignorance is bliss" motto or am I the one fooling myself that their work is sub par?

Cuervo79 wrote:

Yes, I know that. That is exactly why I have not said a thing.

Your answer reminds me of something extra. How does one know if the work is really that bad? Is it me trying to lie to myself or am I right? Do clients love the "ignorance is bliss" motto or am I the one fooling myself that their work is sub par?

I have no way of knowing if you are right or not. Part of judging photos is not whether it is good but rather if it is good for the client. For example, there are some photographer who can produce amazing artistic images which are totally useless for a model in getting agency work. You can be good but wrong the that market. Some client don't know or don't care about image quality. Some don't know they have bad work until they see good work.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
I have no way of knowing if you are right or not. Part of judging photos is not whether it is good but rather if it is good for the client. For example, there are some photographer who can produce amazing artistic images which are totally useless for a model in getting agency work. You can be good but wrong the that market. Some client don't know or don't care about image quality. Some don't know they have bad work until they see good work.

What would you suggest in order to make a client decide to "see your good work", and hiring you.

Cuervo79 wrote:

What would you suggest in order to make a client decide to "see your good work", and hiring you.

See what your doing differently to the photographers they usually choose (which you say are bad)

Cuervo79 wrote:
I'm quite new at trying to make photography my day job, I know I'm not making enough effort to look for clients, which frustrates me when I see a web page or something printed and see photos that "I can take better", you can't be blunt to a prospective client and tell them "hey you've got crappy photos, I can take better if you hire me", I've called to some of these clients and offered them my services, only to get no reply from them or the "yes we have you on our database we will contact you if we need you". A friend of mine has told me "dude you not only have to call them you have to make an appointment and bring the point across", but me being a bit shy that's a hard thing to do repetitively.
I'm also jealous of some photographers in my country that are actually working, and when I see their work I find them sub par to what I would expect if I hired a photographer for something commercial. Specially when I asked one and I get an ignorant reply to things I would think are important, for example: freezing action with a studio strobe I get the reply "yeah you use your shutter speed and your ISO" (no he doesn't have new pocket wizards nor was he able to explain himself more), to that I start thinking WTF is wrong with this guy he's apparently already living off photography and answers this.
I have read in here and in other forums, that sometimes the key is to learn to sell yourself, because in the end even if your work speaks for itself, if people don't know about you they can't hire you.
What I don't get is when I see supposedly big clients with crappy photos, like a chain of hotels. I mean is it that they're cheap? Don't they know any better? Like I said I wish I could tell them directly that their photos suck, so hire me to take better ones. Anyone know a diplomatic way of saying that?

The weekend didn't really help, it just made me sulk again and again on the points I've written. What have you guys done in order to get out of that rut and go on the offensive?

You need to stop whining & start making appointments to see clients.

The World is full of people that say "I can do better than that guy"... but those same people sit on their asses & do nothing about showing what they can do... Talk is cheap my friend.

It's not about having the latest Pocket Wizards, or focussing on the technicalities of photography.... its all about delivering the client's visions the way they asked for them.... sometimes that means shooting something we dont like.

There is a lot more to commercial shooting than taking pictures... you need to demonstrate consistency... a lot of it... you have to be able to manage large teams on shoots... be able to put together detailed bids for jobs.... & this stuff comes from experience.

You are not going to suddenly jump into shooting Ad Campaigns or work with large Hotel Chains with little experience.... you have to work you way into it... & there is no diplomatic way to say to a client that your work is better than what they have been using previously.... no matter how you package it you would simply be saying to the client... "You dont have a clue what you are doing".... not a good way to book a job. Try shooting a mock up Campaign & arrange a meeting with your prospective client.... but start with clients that are realistic.... going after Hilton Hotels is not likely to result in a meeting let alone being hired.

Its funny, I always hear photographers that are starting out complain about all this stuff..... saying they can produce better work & feeling a sense of entitlement to walk into high paying or high profile work when they have done nothing to date.

If you want to know the secret.. I'll tell you.... Hard Work combined with Excellent Marketing skills. If you are shy then you need to get over it.... nobody is interested in a shy photographer that is uncomfortable in a business meeting. The client needs to feel reassured that hiring you was the best decision they could have made.... they have to be confident that you will be able to run the show if you are given the job.. & they need to be certain that you will bring the job in on budget & on time... being shy is going to totally undermine all of these things.

Toughen up & figure out if this is something you really want to do.

PYPI FASHION wrote:

Nobody care if you think their photos suck. I guarantee no matter how good your photos are, somebody else will think your photos suck. What does that accomplish? You don't get jobs by telling clients they are idiots.

this is the cycle i'm stuck in or...the "well i know we said we'd pay you 500 but we only set aside 200...." i

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
You need to stop whining & start making appointments to see clients.

The World is full of people that say "I can do better than that guy"... but those same people sit on their asses & do nothing about showing what they can do... Talk is cheap my friend.

It's not about having the latest Pocket Wizards, or focussing on the technicalities of photography.... its all about delivering the client's visions the way they asked for them.... sometimes that means shooting something we dont like.

There is a lot more to commercial shooting than taking pictures... you need to demonstrate consistency... a lot of it... you have to be able to manage large teams on shoots... be able to put together detailed bids for jobs.... & this stuff comes from experience.

You are not going to suddenly jump into shooting Ad Campaigns or work with large Hotel Chains with little experience.... you have to work you way into it... & there is no diplomatic way to say to a client that your work is better than what they have been using previously.... no matter how you package it you would simply be saying to the client... "You dont have a clue what you are doing".... not a good way to book a job. Try shooting a mock up Campaign & arrange a meeting with your prospective client.... but start with clients that are realistic.... going after Hilton Hotels is not likely to result in a meeting let alone being hired.

Its funny, I always hear photographers that are starting out complain about all this stuff..... saying they can produce better work & feeling a sense of entitlement to walk into high paying or high profile work when they have done nothing to date.

If you want to know the secret.. I'll tell you.... Hard Work combined with Excellent Marketing skills. If you are shy then you need to get over it.... nobody is interested in a shy photographer that is uncomfortable in a business meeting. The client needs to feel reassured that hiring you was the best decision they could have made.... they have to be confident that you will be able to run the show if you are given the job.. & they need to be certain that you will bring the job in on budget & on time... being shy is going to totally undermine all of these things.

Toughen up & figure out if this is something you really want to do.

I agree with most of what you say (as I say its mostly a rant).

How ever I don't agree with you on the "You are not going to suddenly jump into shooting Ad Campaigns or work with large Hotel Chains with little experience" A friend of mine that has less experience than I do has a business relationship with a large hotel chain. The same hotel chain had previously some really crappy photos, they're using my friend's photos now but there are still some old crappy ones still being used.

And thanks for the blunt comment

Kid Yosh Photography wrote:

this is the cycle i'm stuck in or...the "well i know we said we'd pay you 500 but we only set aside 200...." i

That does not happen with me because I would have already collected $250 before booking the job and collected the balance before delivering the pics.

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
You need to stop whining & start making appointments to see clients.

The World is full of people that say "I can do better than that guy"... but those same people sit on their asses & do nothing about showing what they can do... Talk is cheap my friend.

It's not about having the latest Pocket Wizards, or focussing on the technicalities of photography.... its all about delivering the client's visions the way they asked for them.... sometimes that means shooting something we dont like.

There is a lot more to commercial shooting than taking pictures... you need to demonstrate consistency... a lot of it... you have to be able to manage large teams on shoots... be able to put together detailed bids for jobs.... & this stuff comes from experience.

You are not going to suddenly jump into shooting Ad Campaigns or work with large Hotel Chains with little experience.... you have to work you way into it... & there is no diplomatic way to say to a client that your work is better than what they have been using previously.... no matter how you package it you would simply be saying to the client... "You dont have a clue what you are doing".... not a good way to book a job. Try shooting a mock up Campaign & arrange a meeting with your prospective client.... but start with clients that are realistic.... going after Hilton Hotels is not likely to result in a meeting let alone being hired.

Its funny, I always hear photographers that are starting out complain about all this stuff..... saying they can produce better work & feeling a sense of entitlement to walk into high paying or high profile work when they have done nothing to date.

If you want to know the secret.. I'll tell you.... Hard Work combined with Excellent Marketing skills. If you are shy then you need to get over it.... nobody is interested in a shy photographer that is uncomfortable in a business meeting. The client needs to feel reassured that hiring you was the best decision they could have made.... they have to be confident that you will be able to run the show if you are given the job.. & they need to be certain that you will bring the job in on budget & on time... being shy is going to totally undermine all of these things.

Toughen up & figure out if this is something you really want to do.

I want to amplify one point here.  Anyone with decent photography skills -- and I mean ANYONE -- can put together a REALLY good book.  The images will be killer.  Unfortunately, it may have taken 100,000 frames to get those 10 killer images.  A commercial photographer does not have that luxury.  He/she MUST be consistent and MUST get "the shot" within a hundred frames or so.  And, honestly, in a few hundred frames, he/she must execute the client's vision and get MULTIPLE shots that the client deems "outstanding".......   The client may only want one shot but, they really WANT to be able to choose one shot from a small collection of outstanding shots.

Consistency is incredibly important. 

So, if you believe that you have the talent and can CONSISTENTLY produce the results, take a seminar in sales/marketing techniques (personal selling) to help you get over your inherent shyness and start making appointments to clients and start showing them your book.

PYPI FASHION wrote:
Some don't know they have bad work until they see good work.

Some clients know the work is marginal, just OK, but they shop on price; some don't care; some see the question as "does it work?", not one of should we spend more to get better shots; lastly some of the work the OP thinks is not all that good may be excellent in it's first iteration, when originally delivered to the client, but loose quality in the ultimate printed reproductions, looking a lot crappier by the time they see it as a finished product, and better shots won't help that at all.

There are a lot of reasons clients are satisfied with what they are using at the moment; and the photographers they are using; and won't change from someone that does meet their needs to someone who just might be better but is untried and has no real track record.

Studio36

Cuervo79 wrote:

I agree with most of what you say (as I say its mostly a rant).

How ever I don't agree with you on the "You are not going to suddenly jump into shooting Ad Campaigns or work with large Hotel Chains with little experience" A friend of mine that has less experience than I do has a business relationship with a large hotel chain. The same hotel chain had previously some really crappy photos, they're using my friend's photos now but there are still some old crappy ones still being used.

And thanks for the blunt comment

Then go ahead & prove me wrong.... time to stop talking & to start doing!!!

PYPI FASHION wrote:

That does not happen with me because I would have already collected $250 before booking the job and collected the balance before delivering the pics.

yea that's what i've started doing...50% non refundable deposits ...and i still have that clients photos

Digitoxin wrote:
I want to amplify one point here.  Anyone with decent photography skills -- and I mean ANYONE -- can put together a REALLY good book.  The images will be killer.  Unfortunately, it may have taken 100,000 frames to get those 10 killer images.  A commercial photographer does not have that luxury.  He/she MUST be consistent and MUST get "the shot" within a hundred frames or so.  And, honestly, in a few hundred frames, he/she must execute the client's vision and get MULTIPLE shots that the client deems "outstanding".......   The client may only want one shot but, they really WANT to be able to choose one shot from a small collection of outstanding shots.

Consistency is incredibly important. 

So, if you believe that you have the talent and can CONSISTENTLY produce the results, take a seminar in sales/marketing techniques (personal selling) to help you get over your inherent shyness and start making appointments to clients and start showing them your book.

How would you test yourself to see if you're consistent?  I think I am, how can I prove I'm right?

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
Then go ahead & prove me wrong.... time to stop talking & to start doing!!!

Touche! hehehe

studio36uk wrote:
lastly some of the work the OP thinks is not all that good may be excellent in it's first iteration, when originally delivered to the client, but loose quality in the ultimate printed reproductions, looking a lot crappier by the time they see it as a finished product, and better shots won't help that at all.

Not exactly, most of the photographs I qualified as sub par didn't have to do with the printing process. For example, I saw a photo on a web page of the entrance of a hotel, taken at night with a car's stop lights streaking the entrance, and the Hotel is pretty important.

Cuervo79 wrote:

How would you test yourself to see if you're consistent?  I think I am, how can I prove I'm right?

If your existing clients have a hard time narrowing down their selections because they like so many.... then you are consistent. If they have a hard time choosing a shot they like then you are not.

The only test that matters is what a paying client will tell you.

Being right is not relevant... being paid is!

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
Seriously stop over thinking things & make some appointments..... you will make mistakes & this is how you learn... so stop worrying. ;p

I'm going to bed now.... got a client meeting tomorrow at 11am so I need some sleep. Peace.

Thanks for the feed back...

Cheers

Cuervo79 wrote:
How would you test yourself to see if you're consistent?  I think I am, how can I prove I'm right?

H3D PHOTOGRAPHER wrote:
If your existing clients have a hard time narrowing down their selections because they like so many.... then you are consistent. If they have a hard time choosing a shot they like then you are not.

The only test that matters is what a paying client will tell you.

Being right is not relevant... being paid is!

Bingo.....

And, lets discuss something else:  Those images that you think are subpar (they may be.... I don't know.... but, for the sake of argument, lets agree that they are)..... WHY is that? 

As discussed above, there are a number of reasons why that might be true and NONE of them have anything to do with the photographer.  Try this:

1) Client insists on hiring his/her daughter/cousin/niece to be the model in the shoot.  She has zero experience and looks like a chipmunk.  Do you say "no"?  Or do you counsel against it but take the shoot anyway?

2) Client wants to shoot at noon on tuesday outside.  You say "the light will be a lot better at 5:30pm or 8:30am."  Client says:  "nah, noon works with my schedule."

3) etc, etc, etc.

It is your job to point out to the client that their is a better way and many times the client will listen.  However, if they don't listen you have a choice:  Shoot and take the money and make "subpar" images or don't.

Cuervo79 wrote:

studio36uk wrote:
lastly some of the work the OP thinks is not all that good may be excellent in it's first iteration, when originally delivered to the client, but loose quality in the ultimate printed reproductions, looking a lot crappier by the time they see it as a finished product, and better shots won't help that at all.

Not exactly, most of the photographs I qualified as sub par didn't have to do with the printing process. For example, I saw a photo on a web page of the entrance of a hotel, taken at night with a car's stop lights streaking the entrance, and the Hotel is pretty important.

I will almost bet that was a case of the client saying: "good enough" - OR - they actually liked the sense of motion in the images that they light streaks implied.

I've had a few over the years where their "taste" was all in their mouth. If they want crap; will buy crap; and will pay for crap; I'll give them what they want, take their money, and run.

Studio36

studio36uk wrote:
I will almost bet that was a case of the client saying: "good enough" - OR - they actually liked the sense of motion in the images that they light streaks implied.

Studio36

I have seen that image a hundred times.  It is often done for major hotels in "busy" places like NYC and creates a feeling of "motion, pace, and excitement." I would not be surprised if the client ASKED for that shot.

Digitoxin wrote:
I have seen that image a hundred times.  It is often done for major hotels in "busy" places like NYC and creates a feeling of "motion, pace, and excitement." I would not be surprised if the client ASKED for that shot.

Yup.

Here's one I've always found interesting, almost in reverse of that. Working for a nudist publication I've seen hundreds of advertising shots for nudist resorts and hotels... almost all of the images devoid of people. They buy and use those very static shots because if the image actually contained images of their guests, nude, they would be severely limited in how they could make use of those shots in their more mainstream advertising. Those are some of the most abjectly boring images you can imagine... empty swimming pools; restaurants without diners; landscapes of perfectly manicured but sterile lawns; tennis courts without tennis players; and on and on; but that's what the client wants.

Studio36

Funny side note: Imagine doing a shoot like that if you have never had the experience of doing someting like it... a nearly sterile landscape, but while you are doing it you have a flock of naked people standing behind you watching you work. I know what I would rather photograph but I also know what I am being paid to photograph. LOL

Digitoxin wrote:

I have seen that image a hundred times.  It is often done for major hotels in "busy" places like NYC and creates a feeling of "motion, pace, and excitement." I would not be surprised if the client ASKED for that shot.

Well I hope that's what they said, to me it doesn't look like that. I have the link to the image... I don't know if the forum rules allow to link to images that aren't yours.

Cuervo79 wrote:

Touche! hehehe


Not exactly, most of the photographs I qualified as sub par didn't have to do with the printing process. For example, I saw a photo on a web page of the entrance of a hotel, taken at night with a car's stop lights streaking the entrance, and the Hotel is pretty important.

Most of earning dosh in photography is taking pictures that clients want, working to someone else's brief. Taking the pictures you want to take and earning money at it is a whole different kettle of pumpkins .

How do you know the client didn't want that shot. IMO you have to get your mindset into selling and what sells.
There is an old adage............ shots for dough and shots for show.

There are people on here who take fab photos spend hours even days in post, in the real world (for most photographers) this is just not economically viable.

Cuervo79 wrote:
I'm quite new at trying to make photography my day job, I know I'm not making enough effort to look for clients, which frustrates me when I see a web page or something printed and see photos that "I can take better", you can't be blunt to a prospective client and tell them "hey you've got crappy photos, I can take better if you hire me", I've called to some of these clients and offered them my services, only to get no reply from them or the "yes we have you on our database we will contact you if we need you". A friend of mine has told me "dude you not only have to call them you have to make an appointment and bring the point across", but me being a bit shy that's a hard thing to do repetitively.
I'm also jealous of some photographers in my country that are actually working, and when I see their work I find them sub par to what I would expect if I hired a photographer for something commercial. Specially when I asked one and I get an ignorant reply to things I would think are important, for example: freezing action with a studio strobe I get the reply "yeah you use your shutter speed and your ISO" (no he doesn't have new pocket wizards nor was he able to explain himself more), to that I start thinking WTF is wrong with this guy he's apparently already living off photography and answers this.
I have read in here and in other forums, that sometimes the key is to learn to sell yourself, because in the end even if your work speaks for itself, if people don't know about you they can't hire you.
What I don't get is when I see supposedly big clients with crappy photos, like a chain of hotels. I mean is it that they're cheap? Don't they know any better? Like I said I wish I could tell them directly that their photos suck, so hire me to take better ones. Anyone know a diplomatic way of saying that?

The weekend didn't really help, it just made me sulk again and again on the points I've written. What have you guys done in order to get out of that rut and go on the offensive?

The business of photography has nothing to do with your rant:

Harold Rose wrote:
The business of photography has nothing to do with your rant:

In my mind it does, any tips or feedback you like to give?

Cuervo79 wrote:
Yes, I know that. That is exactly why I have not said a thing.

Your answer reminds me of something extra. How does one know if the work is really that bad? Is it me trying to lie to myself or am I right? Do clients love the "ignorance is bliss" motto or am I the one fooling myself that their work is sub par?

It seems to me that you are disconnecting on two important points.  1) your opinion of 'bad' is not universal 2) a more important measure of success of a image is how the client feels that it reaches it market.  Unless or until you know more about their market you can only guess about that success.  Calling on clients without that knowledge might explain the results you have had.  Furthermore, the 'bad' photographs might have been captured by photographers with greater capabilities than are shown in that particular image or campaign (and, gasp, greater capabilities than yourself) but for whatever reason the client directed or selected the shot shown.  In addition, what you might be looking at are stock photos that were purchased just for that purpose.

To assume that you can judge a photographer's skill by a single project selected by a client is dangerously naive.

studio36uk wrote:
I've had a few over the years where their "taste" was all in their mouth. If they want crap; will buy crap; and will pay for crap; I'll give them what they want, take their money, and run.

Studio36

There is a LOT of truth here!

While I've seen a lot of talented ADs, I've worked with some who don't have the aesthetic taste of a 3 year old.

When you run into one of that group, the key is to give them what THEY want, and to puff up their ego... and to never use that shoot for a credit...

Cuervo79 wrote:
Touche! hehehe


Not exactly, most of the photographs I qualified as sub par didn't have to do with the printing process. For example, I saw a photo on a web page of the entrance of a hotel, taken at night with a car's stop lights streaking the entrance, and the Hotel is pretty important.

Why Dangle wrote:
Most of earning dosh in photography is taking pictures that clients want, working to someone else's brief. Taking the pictures you want to take and earning money at it is a whole different kettle of pumpkins .

How do you know the client didn't want that shot. IMO you have to get your mindset into selling and what sells.
There is an old adage............ shots for dough and shots for show.

There are people on here who take fab photos spend hours even days in post, in the real world (for most photographers) this is just not economically viable.

QFT

Harold Rose wrote:

The business of photography has nothing to do with your rant:

the rant doesnt really have anything to do with anything as far as i can tell, the OP is in a rut?

Cuervo79 wrote:

In my mind it does, any tips or feedback you like to give?

your rut or funk or whatever you wish to call it is a circle, it starts with the attitude that you can do better and ends with you feeling you missed the boat. none of it can be very healthy for the old ego and i would advise avoiding that sort of thinking in the future

BYS wrote:
the 'i can do better" is the worse attitude a tog can get
no , you can't ! the proof is the check is'nt in YOUR bank account
photography is about many skills....resume it to one of them , and you'll stay in the swamps
so take that off your head is the best gift you'll do to your business
tb

yes papa...

Cspine wrote:
Go to McDonalds and order a meal. Not the drive through, go inside. Eat your meal and think of how much better you could have made it. Look around at the mindless kids running the place. Think of the billions the company makes. The answers to your questions are right there in front of you.

LOL I like McDonalds hehehe. Well I see the point of what you guys say, mostly I was just ranting....

Anyways thanx for the feedback all