Photographer
Photographer Elle
Posts: 2815
Marshfield, Wisconsin, US
I always thought of what I shot as nudes...I guess I do shoot Erotica, dont I? lol
Model
Koryn
Posts: 39496
Boston, Massachusetts, US
Skydancer wrote:
How about sending the model examples of the kinds of images you want to shoot? Yes.
Photographer
Michael Moon Studios
Posts: 151
Los Angeles, California, US
great definition.... can i have your permission to use it ?
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
I think it's unlikely there will ever be a universally accepted definition for many of the terms you defined, and that's why I think it's important to talk to every model specifically about what a shoot involves and what images may show and not make assumptions about such definitions.
Personally, I disagree with your definition of "implied."
I think the term "implied" pertains more to the perspective of the viewer than to what the model actually wears. If one can't see enough of the model to confirm she's nude, but she appears nude, it's implied she's nude. In reality she may or may not be wearing something. Whether or not she really is nude isn't the issue from that perspective, but it may be an issue to the model at a shoot. Again, this is why I think it's important to talk it through and not make assumptions.
Nudity: I disagree. I think it's a state of dress and could be erotic. It doesn't have to be, but I disagree with you that it can't be.
Erotic: I disagree that an image has to contain nudity to be erotic. It often does, but does not have to.
Pornography: I'd define in the U.S. as images that meet the definition of 2257.
As one answer said you could refer models to this post so they understand your definitions.
Photographer
Matt Knowles
Posts: 3592
Ferndale, California, US
jo rich UK wrote:
eww Interesting response from someone using an 18+ photo as their avatar.
Photographer
Farenell Photography
Posts: 18832
Albany, New York, US
Buna,
Can you, uh, give us the Cliff Notes version?
Photographer
JSVPhotography
Posts: 4897
Madison, Wisconsin, US
Stefano Brunesci wrote:
I'm sure this thread will become an invaluable reference for models wishing to know your thoughts on these matters 
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com Exactly. lol.
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
Dark Life wrote:
99.99% of nude models on MM will never become Playmates I think the percentage is even higher. There are only 12 Playmates in one region per year.
We should also ask those photoogs who shot for Playboy about their selection process. A gal I know went and tryout/test for Playboy. She said her application was pretty much stopped at the door because of her being a stripper.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
There's actually a lot I disagree with here.
Nude is without clothing. In an implied nude shot, the model appears to be nude but may not be (pasties, C-strings, tube tops, etc. often come into play). In a covered nude shot, the model is nude but the model's nipples, areola, pubic hair or genitalia are not obstructed from view. Ideally, the casual observer should not be able to tell the difference.
If a model's nipples, areola, pubic hair or genitalia are uncovered and visible, it is at least partial nudity. If in most jurisdictions, she'd be in violation of indecent exposure laws, we can safely say that community standards considers that nudity. Most people would still also consider bare asses to be at least partial nudity.
By the OP's definition, Playboy is not altogether nude because oftentimes, despite a complete lack of clothing, the models genitalia is obscured by pubic hair. By that definition, I only have one nude shot in my portfolio. This is I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who shares the view that I am not a nude model.
I would also disagree that erotica requires nudity. However, the line between pornography and erotica is an extremely suggestive one. If you ask 10 different people you'll get 12 different answers. My personal definition is that pornography's primary intent is to elicit sexual arousal while in erotica that response is a secondary goal or entirely incidental. Both are about sex and both can be equally explicit. But I've seen many people label very simple figure nudes "erotic," so I just assume the terms is meaningless and ask for an explicit definition.
Photographer
todas_las_caras
Posts: 699
San Francisco, California, US
Did anyone actually read all of that?
The answer is erotica is $2,995 and porn is $29.95.
Model
Nikki Magnusson
Posts: 6844
Las Vegas, Nevada, US
Stefano Brunesci wrote:
I'm sure this thread will become an invaluable reference for models wishing to know your thoughts on these matters
Just my $0.02
Ciao
Stefano
www.stefanobrunesci.com lol...
Photographer
Conceptually Black
Posts: 8320
Columbus, Ohio, US
Erotica you hang on your wall and look at with your lover and friends.
Porn you pull out of the sock drawer and rub one out to while the wife and kids are asleep.
As for nude definitions, what about "nude but too blurry to truly tell"?
Honestly I don't type out to ask, I send them to my site and blog, if they never respond, I understand they aren't comfortable working with me.
Photographer
Blakberi Photography
Posts: 1647
Quebec, Quebec, Canada
I could easily "rub one out" to some of the erotica I have seen whereas porn leaves me cold. Erotica is for the mind, porn is for the [...]
Insert whatever is pertinent to you
No pun intended
Photographer
Chuckarelei
Posts: 11271
Seattle, Washington, US
Conceptually Black wrote:
Porn you pull out of the sock drawer and rub one out to while the wife and kids are asleep. What do we call that in every GWC's computers?
Artist/Painter
aquarelle
Posts: 2056
Chicago, Illinois, US
I grew up in the Catholic Church, and I am familiar with these kinds of extremely specific, drawn out and overly deliniated guidelines. You have actually framed up something very similar to what we used to have described to us in grade school as "Occasions of Sin".
Which make me wonder if it isn't just better to work with a model who doesn't give a shit about most of this stuff, or at least has a comfortable, instinctive knowldge of all the genres before she shows up for work or even shows any interest in the gig.
I would be reluctant to work with a model who would need all this stuff spelled out for her.
Photographer
Keys88 Photo
Posts: 17646
New York, New York, US
I stopped reading, a few sentences in, when you said that you get annoyed at models who think that they can leave their bras on and do "implieds"
In my understanding of "implied" (and, of course, it's no more correct than anyone else's) a model might very well be able to wear a bra and pull of an "implied" shot.
I don't take issue with the fact that we have different definitions. I take issue with your seeming frustration with models who do not share your definitions, as though yours were carved in stone tablets at Sinai.
Photographer
ASYLUM - Art Nudes
Posts: 13657
Washington, District of Columbia, US
Yup.
Model can have a burka on, as long as the final photo *implies* that she is nude.
Hence the term... "implied"
Photographer
William Kious
Posts: 8842
Delphos, Ohio, US
Brevity is the soul of wit...
or something like that.
I gave up reading your "nudie manifesto" about 4 lines in. Many models fail to read the details listed on a release, much less a multi-paragraph treatise outlining the different methods(?) of exposing flesh.
If you want to have this kind of "encyclopedia nude-tanica", you might want to consider visual examples. A picture is worth 1,000 words, after all.
Model
RocKitt
Posts: 1917
Dayton, Ohio, US
William Kious wrote:
Brevity is the soul of wit...
or something like that.
I gave up reading your "nudie manifesto" about 4 lines in. Many models fail to read the details listed on a release, much less a multi-paragraph treatise outlining the different methods(?) of exposing flesh.
If you want to have this kind of "encyclopedia nude-tanica", you might want to consider visual examples. A picture is worth 1,000 words, after all. You beat me to it....
Model
Bella Apryl
Posts: 149
Sullivan, Illinois, US
Bobby G wrote:
LMAO....Well I hope so!!!...
I consider myself a halfway decent photographer...and if a NON-NUDE shoot...I'd be hard pressed to shoot some "taint" without getting some pink or stink in the image...
Damn this is a great read....I feel like I just left a sexual development refresher course... HAHA thats too funny that was the one line you quoted, cause I was going to too!! I had to re-read that line 6 or 7 times... I was craking up.
Model
Bella Apryl
Posts: 149
Sullivan, Illinois, US
ok...so nude is only Vag shots?
That's almost rude to all the "nude" models who are damn good at what they do but don't spread eagle for the viewer to see taint and your love making hole.
I just don't classify nudes as only vag shots. Vag shots are porn to me.
just my 0.02
Model
TILL H S
Posts: 1700
London, England, United Kingdom
Paul Bryson Photography wrote:
This thread title is terribly misleading. I was devastated when I clicked.
I wanted and expected to see Nudity, Erotica, & Porn. you crack me up thanx for that...
on a more serious note- i have yet to find a photographer who can convince me to do a full frontal nude with my face showing too, in the same image... i'm just shy like that...maybe some day... *breaks into song*
Photographer
Eduardo Frances
Posts: 3227
Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain
jo rich UK wrote:
naah aahh, entitled to own opinion
so drugs are ok and nothing to worry about simply because drugs trade is a multi billion £ business too so we should respect it?
 The problem is that talking about the sexual act shouldn´t be a motive of disgust we were all born from it, of course you are entitled to your opinion about pornography you may not like it and it is fine, but in a model/photography industry oriented forum the users will expect a deeper reply in this kind of discussion, something a little more than a eewww.
Don´t take this in a bad way, the net doesn´t transmit feelings, I´m not trying to be a smart ass or harsh.
Model
Art Muse
Posts: 47
Los Angeles, California, US
Broken Doll wrote:
While "nude", "topless" and "implied" are pretty common as concept, and we could agree with your definition, you have to recognize that "erotica" and "porn" are rather in the eye of the beholder: I doubt to have any kind of pornographic pic in my port, but I'm pretty sure that my grandfather('s) opinion would be different...  A b s o l u t e l y agreed.
Photographer
Yanki Yuksel
Posts: 1771
Mississauga, Ontario, Canada
jo rich UK wrote:
naah aahh, entitled to own opinion
so drugs are ok and nothing to worry about simply because drugs trade is a multi billion £ business too so we should respect it?
You're comparing an illegal activity against a legal one.
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
You don't think Penthouse is pornographic??? Buna Photo wrote:
I had a model ask me, in a very detailed way, to tell her what I thought was an implied nude shot, and tell her in a detailed and clear way . I started writing, and realized that there was a lot that went into my views and over the years I have had to answer many connecting and similar questions for models. So I decided to write it all down and save it so that it was all available for any model that asked.
Here is what I came up with. It is a bit graphic, but only to be clear and precise.
I know not everyone will agree with me, after all I was asked what I think because not everyone thinks the same. I'd like to get some model feed back, what you agree with, and what you don't, and possibly why.
Thanks
Tim
Implied, Topless & Nude
I donât know how many models I have heard from that think that they can still wear a bra and panties in an implied nude shot.
To me the breakdown is simple:
NUDE : âwearing no clothesâ, which means no clothing of any kind, and every inch of your body may be photographed .
IMPLIED NUDE : âto make wearing no clothes understood without expressing it directlyâ it would require a model to be nude but her genitalia, anus, and nipples would be covered in a photograph .
TOPLESS : âwearing no covering over the breasts or upper torsoâ would allow anything but a models genitalia and anus to be photographed .
IMPLIED TOPLESS: to make wearing no covering over the breasts or upper torso understood without expressing it directlyâ would allow a model to wear clothing that covers her genitalia and anus, but would require her to be topless. her nipples would be covered in a photograph .
For clarification purposes I understand female genitalia to the Vulva which includes the labia majora, clitoral hood, labia minora, and clitoris include basically everything from the top of the labia majora crack or âcreaseâ in front to the back side or base of the vaginal opening. Anus is the rectal opening and immediate surrounding area. Nipples are exactly and only that, although I consider her areola generally off limits too, but I have been known to Photoshop out a little areola if I have to. Although not included technically in the 3 areas listed above I consider the "taint" or perineum, the area between the base of the vaginal opening and the anus to be off limits for non nude shoots. I do not consider butt crack whether partially covered or completely visible to be nudity, just like you can wear a g-string at the beach and not be indecent.
In most implied topless or implied nude settings I would assume that the models nipples, anus, or genitalia may occasionally be visible to the photographer but should never be intentionally photographed. I would suspect that during an implied topless or implied nude shoot that it would be all but impossible to keep a models nipples, anus, or genitalia hidden from view at all times. I do also think that any model that is serious and professional about her work understands that there may be times when she is "overexposed" in front of a photographer, but in dealing with a professional photographer that situation should never be taken advantage of. All said there needs to be a certain amount of trust in the connection between model and photographer to create outstanding images.
It is entirely possible that model can be completely unclothed in a photo but because of the pose or the angle of the shot her vulva is not visible; I would not consider that shooting nude, but rather Topless with Implied Nudity. I donât not consider models, who only expose only their breasts in photos, to be nude models either. Visible pubic hair does not mean nudity either, in most cases itâs just a little trashy. I look at cleavage, butt crack and front crease similarly, all are for lack of a better word exciting, but do not necessarily constitute nudity.
Nudity, Erotica & Pornography
I shoot nudity, and the occasional Erotica, but nothing I consider Pornographic. It has nothing to do with morals, religious beliefs, whether or not it has artistic value, It is just an agreement I have made with my fiancé.
Here is how I view 18+ photography.
NUDITY is the celebration of the unclothed human figure. Photography of this sort has no intention of eliciting any sexual response or feelings in the viewer, but for some it may.
EROTICA is the sensual and/or artistic depiction of a nude model in a manner so as to arouse an intense emotional or physical reaction without portrayal explicit sexual acts.
PORNOGRAPHY is the depiction of explicit sexual acts for the sole purpose of sexually exciting the viewer.
I often use the Magazine names commonly used to describe the specific type of 18+ photography being discussed.
MAXIM: essentially clothed or partially clothed Erotica.
PLAYBOY: Erotica with no visible vulva, what I like to call almost nude.
PENTHOUSE: Nude Erotica with visible vulva, what I call nude.
HUSTLER: Pornographic with visible vagina and/or penetration.
To help models better understand what type of shots I feel fall into what category without having images to show I will describe some hypothetical shots for you. Any implied shot I would consider Maxim style, along with most Bikini, and Lingerie work. Maxim is the style I shoot most, I like my images to grab the viewers attention with beauty and sensuality, and provoke that emotional or physical response. Most topless shots , shots where the model has her legs closed, or shots where her hips are turned as to not show the pubic area I would consider Playboy style. You may also see the very front of the labia majora or as I call it front âcreaseâ in a Playboy style shot. Penthouse has changed over the last 5 years, I use to consider them hard core pornography, but now they are very similar to playboy with the exception that not every model has to be a fake chestâd blond. Penthouse style shots are ones where most of the parts of the models vulva may be visible, while her legs may or may not be spread. Shots with spread open legs, visible labia minora, (ladyhawk), clitoris or anus are also considered Penthouse style. While some models do, I never use the term âspreadsâ in reference to legs, it refers to the labia minora. If a model has open or spread apart labia minora (lips) and she is not actively spreading her lips in the photo, it is pushing the limits, but I would consider that Penthouse style as well. If a model is actively spreading her labia minora in the photograph, or her vaginal opening is gaping (pink shot) then that is where I consider the image to be pornographic and thus Hustler style. Other Hustler style shots would include any simulated or actual sexual act, simulated or actual masturbation, and penetration by fingers, toy or other item. A shot of a models face, or upper body only while she is masturbating would not be pornographic. Shots that show only the breasts, buttocks, or vulva like partial figure or close ups would also not necessarily be considered pornographic. Context is always a consideration, and these generalizations about style are not absolute. I purposely have not touched on bondage or other types of work that some mage consider fetish. I have no personal experience in that area and choose to let someone more versed than I handle that.
Model
Ashley Graham
Posts: 26822
Saint Petersburg, Florida, US
So this whole thing is filled with odd information. I honestly couldn't finish reading it. I am a nude model, I don't and rarely get asked to do spread shots for people because you don't need it for a nude shoot. For an erotic shoot, maybe, for a porn shoots, yes. However, nudity is not porn all the time or erotica.
Also, many implied nudes have clothing on the model. You do not need to be naked to do an implied shot. I've seen girls do it in underwear, tube tops, tank tops, whatever works. Implied is to give the feeling the model is naked, this feeling can be created while clothed.
Photographer
J C ModeFotografie
Posts: 14718
Los Angeles, California, US
LT Smash wrote:
So this whole thing is filled with odd information. I honestly couldn't finish reading it. I am a nude model, I don't and rarely get asked to do spread shots for people because you don't need it for a nude shoot. For an erotic shoot, maybe, for a porn shoots, yes. However, nudity is not porn all the time or erotica.
Also, many implied nudes have clothing on the model. You do not need to be naked to do an implied shot. I've seen girls do it in underwear, tube tops, tank tops, whatever works. Implied is to give the feeling the model is naked, this feeling can be created while clothed. This is why I don't shoot "implied nudes" . . . because it's the same thing as "half-baked nudes" or "snake oil".
Photographer
Vincent Arthur
Posts: 901
Red Bank, New Jersey, US
theda wrote:
By that definition, I only have one nude shot in my portfolio. ...on my way over to check out theda's... ummm... nude.
Photographer
K E S L E R
Posts: 11574
Los Angeles, California, US
Pretty soon I'm going to use Abbreviations...
Photographer
Paul Bryson Photography
Posts: 48041
Hollywood, Florida, US
TILL H wrote:
you crack me up thanx for that...
on a more serious note- i have yet to find a photographer who can convince me to do a full frontal nude with my face showing too, in the same image... i'm just shy like that...maybe some day... *breaks into song* Normally I only use experienced/career nude models when shooting nudes of any kind ('implied' or full).
But if you're stating that as a challenge, I'm up for it.
I'd make a piece of art that even your Mom would wanna hang on her wall. 
Photographer
T Morgan
Posts: 12
Knoxville, Tennessee, US
Very well done. I added you to my favorites so I can refer to this info for whoever may inquire--or "complain" (including my wife!)
Photographer
Alvah Burlas B A P
Posts: 411
Victorville, California, US
Where is this so called imlied, or erotic you shoot? All I see in your portfolio is swim suit and lingerie. Could it be because when casting an idea you tounge twist the model. I have many friends that are models and I crack up when reading some the photographers descriptions when offering a shoot. I was called yesterday and asked "what does sports illistrated style shoot mean?" I reaplied swim suit I would guess. No I was wrong, the photographer told her it was topless with bikini bottoms and a necklace hanging over her nipples. ?????? WTF
Be upfront and honest about what you want to shoot. If its going to be a spred eagle shot, find a model with that in her portfolio. If she is new and doesnt have any images in her portfolio yet, ask but dont beat around the bush (no pun intended there).
Implied topless as we hear it on MM is topless just covered by someone or something. I do not agree!!!! Implied is the basic rule, she may be nude she may not be. if your idea of implied is nude, then say its a nude shoot but the angles and settings of the shoot wont show any private parts. Dont BS them with magazine names and trick wording.
If the erotic is nude and showing everything then tell them its full nude nothing will be hidden. Explain its not porn and you wont be asked to touch your self or insert anything.
Photographer really need to quit with the trick wording. Also dont ask models to shoot outside there comfort zone. If the profile says shoot nude then ask if it doesnt move on to the next model. Your not going to get the image you want anyways, if the model isnt comfortable with whats being shot.
You dont need to give a 1000 word easay on whats what.
Photographer
Alvah Burlas B A P
Posts: 411
Victorville, California, US
LT Smash wrote:
So this whole thing is filled with odd information. I honestly couldn't finish reading it. I am a nude model, I don't and rarely get asked to do spread shots for people because you don't need it for a nude shoot. For an erotic shoot, maybe, for a porn shoots, yes. However, nudity is not porn all the time or erotica.
Also, many implied nudes have clothing on the model. You do not need to be naked to do an implied shot. I've seen girls do it in underwear, tube tops, tank tops, whatever works. Implied is to give the feeling the model is naked, this feeling can be created while clothed. +1
My ex was is a model and half her portfolio she looked to be naked. Never did she get naked. She always had atleast underwear on.
Photographer
Cogito Ergo Zoom
Posts: 5105
Alpharetta, Georgia, US
This is something that needs to be on your port page.
Model
theda
Posts: 21719
New York, New York, US
Cogito Ergo Zoom wrote:
This is something that needs to be on your port page. Yeah, but only if you have a longer version. Say, 1500+ words.
Model
Jessyka Ann
Posts: 10660
Hyannis, Massachusetts, US
implied nude : Your nekkid, but your "bits" are covered...(hand bras, etc...)
Nude: Your nekkid and your bits are showing(may or may not include possibility of being able to see your crotch)
Erotic: Daring, naughty, edgy...ARTISTIC.
porn: "look! his cock is in her mouth!"
Photographer
AMCphoto2
Posts: 479
Los Angeles, California, US
Very very very informative. Thank you for taking your time to type this all out. Much appreciation!!
Photographer
291
Posts: 11911
SEQUOIA NATIONAL PARK, California, US
Buna Photo wrote:
Implied, Topless & Nude - Nudity, Erotica, & Porn i would determine if one didn't know the difference then one doesn't understand the craft. it certainly doesn't take a long diatribe to explain it.
Model
Jessyka Ann
Posts: 10660
Hyannis, Massachusetts, US
Alvah Burlas B A P wrote:
Where is this so called imlied, or erotic you shoot? All I see in your portfolio is swim suit and lingerie. Could it be because when casting an idea you tounge twist the model. I have many friends that are models and I crack up when reading some the photographers descriptions when offering a shoot. I was called yesterday and asked "what does sports illistrated style shoot mean?" I reaplied swim suit I would guess. No I was wrong, the photographer told her it was topless with bikini bottoms and a necklace hanging over her nipples. ?????? WTF
Be upfront and honest about what you want to shoot. If its going to be a spred eagle shot, find a model with that in her portfolio. If she is new and doesnt have any images in her portfolio yet, ask but dont beat around the bush (no pun intended there).
Implied topless as we hear it on MM is topless just covered by someone or something. I do not agree!!!! Implied is the basic rule, she may be nude she may not be. if your idea of implied is nude, then say its a nude shoot but the angles and settings of the shoot wont show any private parts. Dont BS them with magazine names and trick wording.
If the erotic is nude and showing everything then tell them its full nude nothing will be hidden. Explain its not porn and you wont be asked to touch your self or insert anything.
Photographer really need to quit with the trick wording. Also dont ask models to shoot outside there comfort zone. If the profile says shoot nude then ask if it doesnt move on to the next model. Your not going to get the image you want anyways, if the model isnt comfortable with whats being shot.
You dont need to give a 1000 word easay on whats what. implied nude is NUDE. You just cant see the naughty bits.
Someone with their panties on and a hand bra isnt really implied nude.
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