Forums > General Industry > "All images on CD after the shoot" request

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

(sigh)

I've had it with divas.  I had expressed interest in working with a model in a city that will never be known for its fashion or models as well as it is known for its football.  I told this model that I do TFCD, then she posted rates on her page (after).  I wrote back and said that my situation doesn't allow me to pay models.  She responded by saying that her "manager" said we could discuss TFCD.  Then the demands followed, including "all images on CD immediately after the shoot."  I said I couldn't do that, then went on to explain why (mostly because I don't want "bad images" out there representing my work and that I would edit and then supply her with images).

Her reply:

No problem, Good photographer doesnt worry about this things, not interested, You offer you work, as though I should give you to  opportunity to work with my image, without any benefit to me, I feel like I doing you a favorite, BTW TFCD Means trade for CD which states I shoot then you release a CD of the shoot thats the trade ! You sound suspect !



So...I know this has been discussed plenty of times on the forums, but models and photographers, your thoughts?  Photographers, do you feel the way I do, that you want to provide the best images in a trade, not all of them?  Models, do you understand that these are a representation of our work, just like they represent your work, and we need to have some level of control over this?

Fire away, and thank you.

Apr 02 10 08:17 am Link

Photographer

Photography by BE

Posts: 5652

Midland, Texas, US

LOL.. I had to look at your location to make sure you weren't in my area.

I just looked at a model's profile that said she would consider implied, if the bossman
( I guess her sluggo) would approve it. Of course she had some other demands, similar to what you mention.

Apr 02 10 08:19 am Link

Photographer

Steven David

Posts: 7381

Houston, Texas, US

Do as you feel best.  I never and will never give all images, especially without viewing and editing first.

In this situation, I would not worry about it and move on.  With what she is demanding, there is no way I would work with her.

Apr 02 10 08:21 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Steven David wrote:
Do as you feel best.  I never and will never give all images, especially without viewing and editing first.

In this situation, I would not worry about it and move on.  With what she is demanding, there is no way I would work with her.

Yeah, problem is I get a little headstrong and I can't stand someone being a $#@! without letting them know they are a $#@!.  Bad habit.

Apr 02 10 08:23 am Link

Photographer

Doug Mitchel

Posts: 32

Palatine, Illinois, US

As my rule of thumb, I always give models a complete CD of pix before they leave the studio. They then have the option of choosing their faves and having me tweak them for use. I also don't place any limits on the use of the images. If they like the shot(s) well enough to post or print them I know I've done my job.

The CD is also in addition to a cash payment and further goodies down the road. Obviously I don't shoot with every model who replies and I have yet to have any issues with anyone.

As stated before my shoots with models are primarily for promotional purposes with hopes of bringing in fresh clients down the road. Do I have all sorts of cash laying around to play with? Hell no, that's why I am very selective with whom I shoot.

Some people may not like the way I work, but last time I checked it was still a free country and if we all had the same thoughts and opinions life would be way boring.

Well wishes to all

Apr 02 10 08:23 am Link

Photographer

Adam W Photography

Posts: 1723

Toronto, Ontario, Canada

IMO,

TFCD is so 2000 and late. Don't say that anymore.

Say TF, and then discuss the details once mutual interest is established.

This has only happened to me once and where a model asked for TFCD and her port was impressive so I did reply and say that I had concerns with returning all images. She then replied saying something along the lines of 'ok, then at least let me see all the images and sit with you when you edit them'....

The irony is almost all the models I work with have been given a great number of both prints and images for their ports. There is no greater compliment to me as a photographer when model or agency use my photos for their books. However, I just don't like setting those expectations of 'all images' before even a test shoot takes place.

I find that once you go down that path, you just get pulled into the weeds even further, so just move on.

smile

Apr 02 10 08:24 am Link

Photographer

Steven David

Posts: 7381

Houston, Texas, US

Doug, question for you and not trying to start a debate or arguement.  You give them all the images, let's say there are just a few bad ones on there.  The model then decides to post those bad ones with your name on them, don't you feel that could hurt you?

Apr 02 10 08:26 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

I just really do not appreciate the diva-ish attitude about my abilities when I gave a full explanation of why I didn't want to give all images right after the shoot.  I have no problem with providing a lot of images, but want to weed out the crap.

Apr 02 10 08:26 am Link

Photographer

L2Photography net

Posts: 2549

University City, Missouri, US

I give a proof CD after shoot of small rez photos for them to look at and it states on my release they will not post any of them. I soon my start putting the word PROOF over them too.
If I would have gotten her reply about rate and then talk to manager I would have just walked a way no shoot no CD.. lol Yes tough in my area we trade one or two e mails then I ask them to call me lets plan a shoot.. The ones that call I have  great time with.
L2

Apr 02 10 08:26 am Link

Photographer

Photos By Deej

Posts: 1508

Doraville, Georgia, US

Models will find any excuse not to work with you or create such outrageous demands that leave you frustrated to the point that you won't want to work with them.  A model recently told me that he'd never heard of a model release and have never signed one and had no intentions of signing one.

Apr 02 10 08:27 am Link

Photographer

CBs Photography

Posts: 1108

Ontario, California, US

I let the models know up front that they will not get every picture from the shoot because every picture will not be perfect.  If they don't like it, I don't shoot with them and move on.

Apr 02 10 08:27 am Link

Photographer

Dream-foto

Posts: 4482

Chico, California, US

Sometimes I'll post all photos online, so the model can see all her poses. I'll reduce the size and watermark 'preview only' across all shots.

The problem is that I've seen many GWCs offer all photos on CD the day of the shoot. So some models expect this.

Apr 02 10 08:28 am Link

Photographer

D R A G O N F L Y

Posts: 1593

Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US

Sluggo?
Demands all images on CD?

My only response to this kind of scenario would be: Next!

Apr 02 10 08:28 am Link

Photographer

Steven David

Posts: 7381

Houston, Texas, US

Okay, have not had coffee yet, so I am a little slow.

I will add, I do post all the images online for the model to view.  Then they select the ones they want.  So, the model does get to see all of them, I just don't give them anything until it is edited.

Apr 02 10 08:28 am Link

Photographer

DaveDavis

Posts: 21946

Manteca, California, US

I thought your reply sounded a little harsh and unprofessional.

Apr 02 10 08:28 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Well she just wrote again.  This should be interesting.  You guys cover me, I'm going in.

Apr 02 10 08:30 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Steven David wrote:
Okay, have not had coffee yet, so I am a little slow.

I will add, I do post all the images online for the model to view.  Then they select the ones they want.  So, the model does get to see all of them, I just don't give them anything until it is edited.

I often do the same.  I have no problem with her seeing them, or having low res, just a problem with having them all, high res, right from the shoot.

Apr 02 10 08:31 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

DaveDavis wrote:
I thought your reply sounded a little harsh and unprofessional.

MY reply sounded harsh and unprofessional?  I'm confused.  You mean her reply, right?  Because when I say "The reply:" that's her talking, not me.


I changed it to "Her reply:"

Apr 02 10 08:32 am Link

Photographer

JSVPhotography

Posts: 4897

Madison, Wisconsin, US

In the studio I shoot in raw + small JPG. At the end of the shoot I burn a cd of small jpg images from the shoot. They get everything... good, bad, blinks, blurs, misfires... all unedited. Over the years I have been doing it this way I have really only had one or two issues with something that got posted or edited. For those that were, I seriously doubt that it made what I did or do look bad.

I always ask that when a model edits something and posts it that they add "edited by model" somewhere in the credits.

If for some reason I am not shooting in the studio and I do not have the opportunity to burn a cd, they simply don't get it after the shoot.

Apr 02 10 08:32 am Link

Photographer

Photography by BE

Posts: 5652

Midland, Texas, US

Hehehehe.. I always am amused by the comment "move on".  While I understand and appreciate what is being said, some of us have no place to move on to. 

I would move on, but that would mean a drive of about 350 miles.  Not sure how far the OP would need to move on to.  smile

Apr 02 10 08:34 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

JSVPhotography wrote:
In the studio I shoot in raw + small JPG. At the end of the shoot I burn a cd of small jpg images from the shoot. They get everything... good, bad, blinks, blurs, misfires... all unedited. Over the years I have been doing it this way I have really only had one or two issues with something that got posted or edited. For those that were, I seriously doubt that it made what I did or do look bad.

I always ask that when a model edits something and posts it that they add "edited by model" somewhere in the credits.

If for some reason I am not shooting in the studio and I do not have the opportunity to burn a cd, they simply don't get it after the shoot.

I always shoot on location (no studio) so I don't have the ability to do these things; otherwise, I would.

Apr 02 10 08:34 am Link

Photographer

Tony Lawrence

Posts: 21474

Chicago, Illinois, US

Omaroo wrote:
Well she just wrote again.  This should be interesting.  You guys cover me, I'm going in.

I just looked at your stuff, nice.  So tell me why you would go through any drama
with a model.  Besides the fact that you may be writing to a sluggo and
not the actual model.  You don't give a CD right after the shoot.  She's insulted
you.  She's hinted you have poor ethics.  Learn to avoid problems.  Shoot her and
bets are you'll be back with a complaint. 

Your works good.  You seem like a good guy.  Don't deal with Diva's.

Apr 02 10 08:34 am Link

Photographer

Mike Kelcher

Posts: 13320

Minneapolis, Minnesota, US

I see this situation as "messy". The model is somewhat correct in her assertion that on a TFCD shoot, the model should be getting a CD. She wants it right away, and you'd prefer to deliver it later. I can understand the reasons why both of you want it "your way".

Personally, I've never quite liked the TFCD thing, for a variety of reasons:

1. Like you, I don't want bad images out there. I've not seen many images that could not be artistically improved by Photoshop.

2. I never want to supply images that I haven't dragged through Photoshop and for me, that means anywhere from 20 minutes of work to 4 hours of work per image. I'm not going to shoot 100 images and spend 33 hours editing them, when many are similar to others.

3. I don't feel that models are the best judges of images of themselves. Most models know nothing about the artistic use of color, contrast, or composition. To illustrate my point, choose 20 model portfolios at random on here and see if you'd choose the same avatar the model did.

4. Above all things, I don't want somebody else photoshopping my images. I do that.

So, from my perspective, the problem is offering TFCD in the first place.

I case you're wondering, when I do "trade shoots", I pick a few images and send edited 500k web-ready .jpg files to the model. We both seem to be happy with that.

Apr 02 10 08:35 am Link

Photographer

Sinclaire Art

Posts: 107

Atlanta, Georgia, US

I may be one of the few photographers that feel this way, but I always give out a CD of all unedited pictures taken, good and bad, to the model.  I also promise to send any edited pictures to her after she leaves my studio.

My personal philosophy is that a model's wages are the pictures taken and should therefore benefit equally with me.  I am no better than she is nor is she any better than I am.  I don't even care if she goes out and edits the pictures herself.  The only rule I have is that if the final edited product is not to my liking that my name be left off the credits.  I've never had a problem with this request.  If they choose to post unedited pictures, again, I don't care.  Models are not going to post unflattering pictures of themselves, and if they do, my unedited pictures can stand on their own.  In the case where, due to the angle taken, parts of the ceiling or equipment shows up, I think that anyone who matters would realize that it is not a finished product.  Regardless, anyone who is considering working with me and whose opinion matters to me, is going to check out my port first and understand that my work is much better than an unedited picture they might have seen.

As an artist, I totally understand and respect other photographers' approaches to this sensitive subject, but I guess to me, the whole argument of the pictures being a model's wage outweighs any other.  These models work hard for me and they should get their "pay" for the effort.

Apr 02 10 08:35 am Link

Photographer

Jay Pegg

Posts: 6374

Kansas City, Missouri, US

Steven David wrote:
Doug, question for you and not trying to start a debate or arguement.  You give them all the images, let's say there are just a few bad ones on there.  The model then decides to post those bad ones with your name on them, don't you feel that could hurt you?

It would be unlikely for a model to post bad pictures of herself; it seems counter-intuitive.

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Model

Carrie_K

Posts: 10053

Orlando, Florida, US

Omaroo wrote:
I just really do not appreciate the diva-ish attitude about my abilities when I gave a full explanation of why I didn't want to give all images right after the shoot.  I have no problem with providing a lot of images, but want to weed out the crap.

That's not diva-ish. That's immature and inexperienced. And you were polite to explain the reasoning why photographers might not want to provide a CD of unedited images. However, both parties are free to ask for whatever they want, either you both agree and shoot, or you don't and pass. I think by showing her true colors right away, she saved you a lot of headache in the long run.

However, for the future, I would change your wording of offering TFCD. As for new models it might be a bit confusing and they might come to expected the now infamous CD of images. Offer a trade shoot and spell out the agreement in writing.

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Photographer

FlirtynFun Photography

Posts: 13926

Houston, Texas, US

OBVIOUSLY this model is new. Chances are that's she's shot with one or two GWC's who gave her a whole CD of images.

I'd not take this personally. I'd simply state what she'll get with you IF she wishes to shoot with you. If she can't accept those terms- NEXT.

It's not your job as a photographer to educate every model who you come across. There are PLENTY of places to get VAILID information without that. If she falls on her face as a result of the pain she'll have from her ignorant demands, MAYBE she'll learn from it.

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Many fine points Mike, thanks.

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Photographer

Greg Kolack

Posts: 18390

Elmhurst, Illinois, US

DaveDavis wrote:
I thought your reply sounded a little harsh and unprofessional.

His reply was harsh?

How do you know what he even said? He didn't even quote what he said.

I think you may have misread the OP. What he quoted was what the model said.

"No problem, Good photographer doesnt worry about this things, not interested, You offer you work, as though I should give you to  opportunity to work with my image, without any benefit to me, I feel like I doing you a favorite, BTW TFCD Means trade for CD which states I shoot then you release a CD of the shoot thats the trade ! You sound suspect !"

Also, FYI - most models I have worked with do not want an entire CD of images - they feel they have no use for them.

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Photographer

B R U N E S C I

Posts: 25319

Bath, England, United Kingdom

Jay Cain wrote:

It would be unlikely for a model to post bad pictures of herself; it seems counter-intuitive.

That doesn't stop them doing it though! lol


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Apr 02 10 08:37 am Link

Photographer

D R A G O N F L Y

Posts: 1593

Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
OBVIOUSLY this model is new. Chances are that's she's shot with one or two GWC's who gave her a whole CD of images.

I'd not take this personally. I'd simply state what she'll get with you IF she wishes to shoot with you. If she can't accept those terms- NEXT.

It's not your job as a photographer to educate every model who you come across. There are PLENTY of places to get VAILID information without that. If she falls on her face as a result of the pain she'll have from her ignorant demands, MAYBE she'll learn from it.

+1

Apr 02 10 08:39 am Link

Photographer

Ascension Imaging

Posts: 267

Sarasota, Florida, US

I tend to think that if a model is shooting TFCD with no monetary payment involved then she is entitled to all of the unedited images.  Otherwise, if the release gives her no control over what images the photographer ends up using then the "TF" is inequitable.  If the model posed for 100 photos but gets only edited versions of the ones the photographer deems worthy, then the model has been given no benefit of a "trade" for the photos that the photographer will not give her. 

JMO.  My TF models get all the unedited pics and a certain number of edits agreed-to in advance.

Apr 02 10 08:40 am Link

Photographer

Sinclaire Art

Posts: 107

Atlanta, Georgia, US

Sinclaire Art wrote:
I may be one of the few photographers that feel this way, but I always give out a CD of all unedited pictures taken, good and bad, to the model.  I also promise to send any edited pictures to her after she leaves my studio.

My personal philosophy is that a model's wages are the pictures taken and should therefore benefit equally with me.  I am no better than she is nor is she any better than I am.  I don't even care if she goes out and edits the pictures herself.  The only rule I have is that if the final edited product is not to my liking that my name be left off the credits.  I've never had a problem with this request.  If they choose to post unedited pictures, again, I don't care.  Models are not going to post unflattering pictures of themselves, and if they do, my unedited pictures can stand on their own.  In the case where, due to the angle taken, parts of the ceiling or equipment shows up, I think that anyone who matters would realize that it is not a finished product.  Regardless, anyone who is considering working with me and whose opinion matters to me, is going to check out my port first and understand that my work is much better than an unedited picture they might have seen.

As an artist, I totally understand and respect other photographers' approaches to this sensitive subject, but I guess to me, the whole argument of the pictures being a model's wage outweighs any other.  These models work hard for me and they should get their "pay" for the effort.

One other thing I NEVER EVER work with divas or models that even approach that description.  Any models with picky or demanding comments on her profile I simply skip over.  There are way too many "sirens" in the sea and life is too short to deal with crap.

Apr 02 10 08:40 am Link

Photographer

Steven David

Posts: 7381

Houston, Texas, US

Jay Cain wrote:

It would be unlikely for a model to post bad pictures of herself; it seems counter-intuitive.

True, but, if for some reason he/she got made at you and posted the photo with "look at the shit so and so does".  I know that probably doesn't happen much, but it could.

Apr 02 10 08:40 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

My response to her less-than-polite retort said:

No, trade for CD means that I give you some images on a CD after the shoot.  Not all of the images on a CD immediately after a shoot.  I invite you to ask this in a forum question and see what other "good" photographers have to say about it.



And now she fired back at me with more attitude and blocked me.  No problem there, but I'm stubborn and would have liked to link her to this thread.  smile

Apr 02 10 08:40 am Link

Photographer

Jay Pegg

Posts: 6374

Kansas City, Missouri, US

Stefano Brunesci wrote:

That doesn't stop them doing it though! lol


Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Yeah it's happened to me one or twice. One ended up on the front cover of Zoo, curiously enough big_smile

Apr 02 10 08:41 am Link

Photographer

Omaroo

Posts: 1102

Madison, Wisconsin, US

I think I'll stick with inanimate objects from now on.

Apr 02 10 08:41 am Link

Photographer

JSVPhotography

Posts: 4897

Madison, Wisconsin, US

Jay Cain wrote:
It would be unlikely for a model to post bad pictures of herself; it seems counter-intuitive.

I would not agree with this statement. I've seen this over and over again.

Many times when a model gets back to me with choices to edit from the proof cd, I have to question some of their choices. I doubt if I am the only one that feels this way. I think it is due to the idea that most people see themselves one way, or one "good" way... or this is what they are used to after looking at themselves in the mirror every day for their entire lives. I see these people sometimes for the first time in real life and usually do not look at them they way they see themselves.

Apr 02 10 08:43 am Link

Photographer

Looknsee Photography

Posts: 26342

Portland, Oregon, US

It takes a diva to feed a diva.  The OP's mistake was in not walking away earlier.

I firmly believe that...

Either party has the right to ask for whatever compensation he/she wants.

The other party has the right to accept, decline, or make a counteroffer.

That's business.


You couldn't close the deal with terms acceptable to both parties.  That happens.  That happens a lot.  Getting all upset, calling the other party "diva", or whining here on a forum thread is just a waste of time & energy.  Why are you tying yourself up over this?  Move on!

Apr 02 10 08:43 am Link

Photographer

Photography by BE

Posts: 5652

Midland, Texas, US

FlirtynFun Photography wrote:
OBVIOUSLY this model is new. Chances are that's she's shot with one or two GWC's who gave her a whole CD of images.

I'd not take this personally. I'd simply state what she'll get with you IF she wishes to shoot with you. If she can't accept those terms- NEXT.

It's not your job as a photographer to educate every model who you come across. There are PLENTY of places to get VAILID information without that. If she falls on her face as a result of the pain she'll have from her ignorant demands, MAYBE she'll learn from it.

Seems like a model would learn, but that is not always the case.

I photographed a model a while back that finally put a profile on MM (none of my images).  She has that same demand.. "all images immediately after the shoot".   All her images are by the same photographer, and she has been modeling for about 2 years.

Seems she hasn't learned much.  smile

Apr 02 10 08:44 am Link