Photographer
KMP
Posts: 4834
Houston, Texas, US
Martin-Manuel Beaulne wrote:
Finally, someone said it.
95% of the full-time photographers get their cash from porn.
None will say it.
I can say it, I'm not full-time photographer  I think it's a common misconception by non-pros..
I'm a full time photographer...never ventured into it..
It would destroy my client relationships..which I value greatly!
Personally.. on MM... I think most of this is for fun not profit....and for some just cheap titillation..
Photographer
Jeffrey Blake Adams
Posts: 609
Jacksonville, Florida, US
MikeFox Photography wrote:
Literally, no one seems to pay anymore, I've just had a agency from New York asking me to do TF* for 5 models, come on man!
I was offering shoots for £90 and in US dollars that's $139...apparently too expensive for my time, studio, edited photos, MUA and Hair Stylist...right.
Short story is TF has closed the doors on my studio.
Good luck to all the photographers this year!
Lights out. Sorry to hear, if that was your only business, I hope you don't give up, many waste a year or two on TFP, but eventually come back when the TFP crap gets them laughed at. I doubt an agency that relies on that will be around lomg. Hang in there, turn out quality they can't get thru TF and expand your income streams.
Photographer
Looknsee Photography
Posts: 26342
Portland, Oregon, US
>>>>> Brutal Truth Mode On >>>>>
There's no use complaining if there is no economic reason for you to exist. The world doesn't owe you a living -- you've got to find a need & fill it.
The digital camera revolution has made photography easy & pervasive. Sure, you might make better images than the average guy, but if the average guy can produce adequate quality images, why would anyone pay for something better?
If you want to make a living as a photographer, you have to find a niche that...
... that is in demand,
... that the average GWC can't do,
... that you can fulfill better than anyone.
Regarding TFP...
... Just say no.
... Or say "no, thank you" or "not at this time, thanks".
... There is always something you can do to improve your business: do that
instead of doing TFP.
... Go out & find work.
Model
Skunk The Gutterpunk
Posts: 771
Red Bank, New Jersey, US
I feel your pain. I used to like modeling a lot, but people always told me I wasn't serious enough about it, and then wouldn't pay me at all for my work. After putting up with too much of the garbage people were throwing at me, I kind of realized that with VERY few exceptions (most of which are in my friends list), I hated modeling. A lot. And I hated marketing myself only to get people flaking on me. It's even affected my self-esteem to a point.
The market sucks out there.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
threads like this really make me wish we could critique posters.
The difference between a studio fashion or beauty photographer and a hobbyist isn't just in the work produced. It is in the client base, the cost of marketing, and the market itself is a differing market.
I feel like a poster comes in and says, I can't sell my apples anymore, and a bunch of orange sellers come in and say you just aren't marketing correctly.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
SAADIQ PHOTOGRAPHY wrote:
Modeling agencies don't pay models to update their portfolios! Quality demands Quality hints the reason you don't see high end quality models on this site or other sites like it seeking so-called TFP aka FREE shoots! Nor will you ever see Quality photographers offering TFP aka FREE shoots. i.e. (www.women-direct.com, www.marilynagency.com or greg kadel, steven maisel) just to name a few.
Also, paying non-qualified models and or non-qualified gwc/photographers to update ones current mediocre "internet" images with more mediocre "internet" images is another issue... I guess its just part of the useless "self congratulatory" mindset.
If you're good at something... get paid for it! Actually shooters like Steven do offer Tests all the time. Its
just for the best new faces or established models. Shooters with real
world clients usually don't worry about a few bucks some model
can't pay anyway. The aim is to get real clients. The Test shooters
who charge models tend to be mid level photographers with limited
clients or published work.
This isn't to crack on those that charge models but is to say that
the upper level photographers who do fashion, commercial or advertising
don't worry about a few hundred bucks from some model. Keep in mind
that in many markets a Test shoot ranges around $200.00 to $250.00.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Jeffrey Blake Adams wrote:
Sorry to hear, if that was your only business, I hope you don't give up, many waste a year or two on TFP, but eventually come back when the TFP crap gets them laughed at. I doubt an agency that relies on that will be around lomg. Hang in there, turn out quality they can't get thru TF and expand your income streams. there is a photographer in my market who will do a full day with an agency model, including make-up, hair, studio and styling for $200. How on earth would i compete with that? Even paying starvation wages to my make-up and hair people, my cost is $300 to do a shoot with make-up, hair, styling and studio. No profit, just direct cost.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Actually shooters like Steven do offer Tests all the time. Its
just for the best new faces or established models. Shooters with real
world clients usually don't worry about a few bucks some model
can't pay anyway. The aim is to get real clients. The Test shooters
who charge models tend to be mid level photographers with limited
clients or published work.
This isn't to crack on those that charge models but is to say that
the upper level photographers who do fashion, commercial or advertising
don't worry about a few hundred bucks from some model. Keep in mind
that in many markets a Test shoot ranges around $200.00 to $250.00. Paid test shoots are for new faces. Steven does not do tests with new faces.
Photographer
ontherocks
Posts: 23575
Salem, Oregon, US
i've had some success with boudoir. shot a 52 year old yesterday in her leopard-print bikini. she was celebrating a recent weight loss. haven't made any money on models yet.
Photographer
Joe Wow Photos
Posts: 657
Dayton, Ohio, US
I'd estimate there are MAYBE 1% of photographers that make any kind of decent money on here, or working with models.
The days are gone where you can make a living chasing pretty girls on here and making enough money to succeed. Your studio is shut down because you failed to handle your business. Take on weddings, events, parties and other venues that are less exciting BUT MAKE Money!! Those venues have never heard of TFP!
Its time to stop bullcrapping and crying about how GWC amateurs and TFP will hurt your business. Adapt to the current business environment or change fields. DIVERSIFY!!
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Joe WoW Photos wrote:
Adapt to the current business environment or change fields. DIVERSIFY!! have you now, or ever, made any part of your living doing beauty or fashion images?
Photographer
Laura Dark Photography
Posts: 6812
Columbus, Ohio, US
Martin-Manuel Beaulne wrote:
Finally, someone said it.
95% of the full-time photographers get their cash from porn.
None will say it.
I can say it, I'm not full-time photographer never shot porn. ever.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Star wrote:
Paid test shoots are for new faces. Steven does not do tests with new faces. When Cindy came to Chicago she started with Bob Frame and then
worked with Victor: http://skrebneskiphotographs.com/home.html
No money and she was 'new' If your business model to keep a studio
open is to shoot Tests with models you may not last long.
Clients pay. Models struggling to pay rent and buy food usually can't
or at least pay much.
Steven and everybody at his level Tests new faces all the time.
They call Next or DNA or Ford if they see a face they like.
Steven is at the top but many of the better known fashion shooters do.
They don't look for models on MM. They don't advertise on CL for models.
People who have real world clients that pay them aren't all that concerned
about models paying them to shoot.
Photographer
Kevin Greggain Photography
Posts: 6769
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
With the advent of amazing cameras and the acceptance of a lesser quality image (or the inability to judge a good photo from bad) has eroded the potential for most semi-professional photographers to bring in income.
Yes, I'm sure there are stats that show some area doing most amazing, but in reality it's less of the fact they models don't want to pay and more of the fact that there are many others out there who can shoot as good as or better than me and will do it for free, so the value I bring to the table is moot.
I'm not saying by any means we (the photographers, the models, the MUAs, the stylists, the wardrobe designers) are not worth anything, I'm just saying we are devalued because of the shear amount of people in the industry doing the same things.
Not to say you can't make money, I'm just of the mindset, that I would never get rich or even moderately funded with photography.
I'm ok with that. I have a day job and I have never charged for shooting. I've even paid a few models I felt were experienced enough to warrant it and it's a happy time all around.
However, if your sole purpose is to make money, agencies, large companies, and not private individuals are your best sources.
Photographer
PETER GEORGAS
Posts: 1183
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Star wrote:
threads like this really make me wish we could critique posters.
The difference between a studio fashion or beauty photographer and a hobbyist isn't just in the work produced. It is in the client base, the cost of marketing, and the market itself is a differing market.
I feel like a poster comes in and says, I can't sell my apples anymore, and a bunch of orange sellers come in and say you just aren't marketing correctly. ......my wedding gigs come from word of mouth,i am part of the Greek community in Vancouver,i have 3 $$ shoots this year.....
Photographer
Gary Melton
Posts: 6680
Dallas, Texas, US
"The number of people who will not go to a show they do not want to see is unlimited." - Oscar Hammerstein
In other words - you can't make people pay for what they are not willing to pay for.
To be successful, a photographer needs: 1) the ability to determine and find a target audience that he or she can appeal to and satisfy, 2) the ability to market him or herself effectively, 3) at least some basic business skills, and 4) talent (and in about that order - unless his or her talent is big enough to put them in the top 3% or so of all photographers).
Just like with any business - the bottom line is having a great business plan, and executing it effectively.
Photographer
00Philip00
Posts: 184
Vass, North Carolina, US
Why I'm pursuing another route for my main income - Folks wanting too much for too little in the graphics arena nowadays. I still love to look over great photography and art - free OR paid. Best of luck for us ALL
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
When Cindy came to Chicago she started with Bob Frame and then
worked with Victor: http://skrebneskiphotographs.com/home.html
No money and she was 'new' If your business model to keep a studio
open is to shoot Tests with models you may not last long.
Clients pay. Models struggling to pay rent and buy food usually can't
or at least pay much.
Steven and everybody at his level Tests new faces all the time.
They call Next or DNA or Ford if they see a face they like.
Steven is at the top but many of the better known fashion shooters do.
They don't look for models on MM. They don't advertise on CL for models.
People who have real world clients that pay them aren't all that concerned
about models paying them to shoot. there is a difference between new faces, and a great new model. New faces can sometimes spend years on the new faces board out here. And do you have anyone not from the 80's you can use as an example of a new face you tested with Steven.
Photographer
Star
Posts: 17966
Los Angeles, California, US
PETER GEORGAS wrote:
......my wedding gigs come from word of mouth,i am part of the Greek community in Vancouver,i have 3 $$ shoots this year..... wedding is to apples as fashion is to oranges
I shot 100 restaurants this year for the LA Weekly, that does not make me qualified to shoot architecture, or to comment on the state of shooting architecture as a business. In fact, it doesn't even make me qualified to talk about commercial food shooting, since i was shooting for a publication not trying to market myself to ad agencies.
Photographer
GD Whalen
Posts: 1886
Asheville, North Carolina, US
Guys, there is no money in shooting people that have no money. Not that difficult to figure out. And if that doesn't work for you try basic Econ 101. Supply and demand. When there is more supply than demand the value will drop and this is especially true when the supply is free. MM is a playground, not a market.
Photographer
Christopher Carter
Posts: 7777
Indianapolis, Indiana, US
I love the people who claim the point and shoots are killing their business.
I can't tell you how many people I have shot, who contacted a photographer and saw them shooting with a point and shoot or a Rebel or D40 or d90 (which are decent cameras), and been pissed off to see the photographer they hired with a low end camera.
I know it's not the gear it's the photographer, but still.
If people with point and shoots are killing your business, then you suck at business and shooting both. Cause most of those people can't take a picture either.
Photographer
Roy Nelson Photos
Posts: 286
West Hollywood, California, US
And then again, true 3D is coming and the equipment & skills needed are beyond the weekend warrior.
Photographer
ESP NY
Posts: 470
Palm Beach, Florida, US
Tony Lawrence wrote:
Clients pay. Models struggling to pay rent and buy food usually can't
or at least pay much. qft x 1,000
Photographer
AJ_In_Atlanta
Posts: 13053
Atlanta, Georgia, US
TF* isn't new, nor is testing. Agencies have always been cheap and I am sorry to hear you are encountering difficulties. Keep your head up, keep shooting, and look for other revenue opportunities.
Best of luck to you
Retoucher
IdontKnowIForgot
Posts: 3829
Glasgow, Scotland, United Kingdom
and due to that, people like me are having a hard time getting good work also. I think the £-$ is also a factor sometimes, but when photogs aint getting the work. neither am I. the cycle goes on 
Clothing Designer
Burning Violet
Posts: 134
Bury Saint Edmunds, England, United Kingdom
GD Whalen wrote:
Guys, there is no money in shooting people that have no money. Not that difficult to figure out. Unless you are both getting paid. LOL
Photographer
Abbitt Photography
Posts: 13564
Washington, Utah, US
I'm sorry to hear a source of income has dried up for you. It's rare however to read of a photographer who reliably makes money from model clients. I hope you are able to find a new client base for yourself.
Photographer
JoshuaDavisPhotography
Posts: 2430
San Francisco, California, US
I haven't looked at your work so this isn't a critique, but you must not be offering what customers want or else you're not marketing yourself properly. I still make money in photography, but it's probably because at least for my area I can offer something that most photographers don't.
Photographer
SOOPAPOOP
Posts: 32
Houston, Texas, US
GD Whalen wrote:
Guys, there is no money in shooting people that have no money. well said. i had a mua wanting me to shoot a model last week...but then that model quickly turned into 2...and then those 2 turned into 2 ladies and 1 man..for half a day...i passed O.o
Photographer
Steve Gould
Posts: 59
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, US
MikeFox Photography wrote:
Literally, no one seems to pay anymore, I've just had a agency from New York asking me to do TF* for 5 models, come on man!
I was offering shoots for £90 and in US dollars that's $139...apparently too expensive for my time, studio, edited photos, MUA and Hair Stylist...right.
Short story is TF has closed the doors on my studio.
Good luck to all the photographers this year!
Lights out. Walmart doesn't do TFP, and they somehow manage to keep a photo studio (If you can even call it that) in quite a few stores...so someone is paying...and paying for the crap they shoot...so I agree with most on here...time to up your A game...
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Images by JV wrote:
It's pretty much the same for wedding photography now....wedding. They will spend more $$$ on the cake than on the photos. Hmmmm That was also true in the 60's.
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
billshootspeople wrote:
For some of photographers and businessmen that have worked in the USA and overseas in Europe we can remember when things were worse! This business has a way of making you broke. Just when you think you are getting ahead, and you are in the business of selling images or shooting there was this hiccup. Its not as hard as it used to be??? Think about just ten or fifteen years ago and how it used to be! Then, I would have reserved my thoughts that I was making money until I saw and paid my lab and film cost. The bill some times was overwhelming.
Agencies wanted you to shoot two or three of their newest models for TFP and it wasn't digital it was paper or other enlargements from 35mm slides?
--in the late 80's and 90's if you had a good rep that was all you really needed to shoot the next assignment. Now there are 20 guys who say they are professionals for every job out there. Business is business it was hard then and its hard now!
i
In Germany if you didn't speak the language you couldn't get work. Then especially you had to go to school to prove you could deliver a certain quality, and knowledge or you didn't get a business license. PERIOD!! So you went to school.
Photographers didn't just shoot one theme, such as just wanna be models...you shot anything to pay the bills;-- from product, travel, people and of course ads! Hey I even shot weddings! Hell I used to make a good monthly profit from American passport pictures.
But I wouldn't trade any of it...not for a minute...while my old Army buddies were getting out, most of them were working in offices or indoors while I did it all outside.
And you guys are whining about that agencies want only TFD? Common its not the only dance in town?
Figure it out or start selling insurance??? +1
Photographer
Loki Studio
Posts: 3523
Royal Oak, Michigan, US
I get stupid requests all the time-say no. If your studio business is dependant only on model shoots, then you need to adjust your business model. If your services are equal to those offered in trade, then you need to up your game.
I have also been successful in providing business guidance to sharp emerging photographers. The more they understand the business, the less they will give away without payment.
-Scott
Photographer
Herman Surkis
Posts: 10856
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
Looknsee Photography wrote:
>>>>> Brutal Truth Model On >>>>>
There's no use complaining if there is no economic reason for you to exist. The world doesn't owe you a living -- you've got to find a need & fill it.
The digital camera revolution has made photography easy & pervasive. Sure, you might make better images than the average guy, but if the average guy can produce adequate quality images, why would anyone pay for something better?
If you want to make a living as a photographer, you have to find a niche that...
... that is in demand,
... that the average GWC can't do,
... that you can fulfill better than anyone.
Regarding TFP...
... Just say no.
... Or say "no, thank you" or "not at this time, thanks".
... There is always something you can do to improve your business: do that
instead of doing TFP.
... Go out & find work.
Photographer
Tony Lawrence
Posts: 21526
Chicago, Illinois, US
Star wrote:
there is a difference between new faces, and a great new model. New faces can sometimes spend years on the new faces board out here. And do you have anyone not from the 80's you can use as an example of a new face you tested with Steven. I used someone, I know. Not well mind you. I don't know Meisel
but I do know that its usually the lower level mid range shooters
who worry about some model paying for Tests. Photographers with
a serious client base don't. Those with agents who have real day rates.
Not those who look for talent on CL or here or plaster that bs, no TFP
on their profile like their being swamped with offers.
I can see it now. Mario Testino to a new girl he likes.
'Well we could shoot but you have to pay the MUA's kit fee' The ideal
is have a book then some work then a agent and hit ad agencies
like leo Burnett. Its great to have Tears of course and a working relationship
with modeling agencies as well.
Trying to make a living from model Tests is a losing deal.
Trying to have models who are struggling to buy underwear pay for Tests
won't work. There are a few shooters who seem to do well with
doing Tests. Most won't but that shouldn't be any serious long term
goal. You start with some of the second or third tier magazines.
Move up. Do editorials, this if you haven't been a assistant where
maybe you've made friends with some AD.
Models really aren't clients or shouldn't be for many of us.
They are talent. Looking for them to keep you going isn't a good
business plan. Again there is money our there for Tests.
Seth Sabal comes to mind. He's a master of self promotion.
However for most its just not going to do all that well. However as
your the working pro and certainly know a lot more then me.
I will acquiesce.
Photographer
Don-Jones
Posts: 302
Memphis, Tennessee, US
Unfortunately these days, you have to be vertically integrated. That doesn't just go for photographers. I know plumbers that are electricians and carpenters. I know hair stylists that are massage therapists who sell beauty supplies.
Where does the money come from in terms of photography - Art Prints, Advertising, etc... I am personally working in reverse of what you could be doing. I work in branding, ad, and product launching. I saw how much money I was contracting out to product photographers and so forth.... long story short, that is how I wound up here.
That's my advice to anyone else in a squeeze. Look to who pays you and offer them more. Look at your expenses, find a way to keep it in-house.
Model
E M E R S O N
Posts: 1004
Tucson, Arizona, US
MikeFox Photography wrote:
Literally, no one seems to pay anymore, I've just had a agency from New York asking me to do TF* for 5 models, come on man!
I was offering shoots for £90 and in US dollars that's $139...apparently too expensive for my time, studio, edited photos, MUA and Hair Stylist...right.
Short story is TF has closed the doors on my studio.
Good luck to all the photographers this year!
Lights out. If you were to provide me all of that I would pay you at least double.
Photographer
Life Is Great Images
Posts: 947
Bozeman, Montana, US
Madcrow Photographics wrote:
Seriously. If weekend warriors like me are causing you problems, then you need to be doing something else. There's enough shooting out there for you pros and us hobbyists! Agreed. However, we hobbyists are probably crowding the field in the glamour segment. Yet I for one won't shoot weddings and I lack skills to do good commercial / fashion shoots. So you professionals have an advantage over us in those areas.
Model
Laurel Rae
Posts: 2034
Tucson, Arizona, US
I think you should do what some of my photographers do and take up on wedding photography and family photography every now and then to balance things out. With so many models finding photographers to do tfp with them, it's hard to try and get your whole income on just models... even though you're amazing 
Photographer
DAVfoto
Posts: 2324
New York, New York, US
Star wrote:
Paid test shoots are for new faces. Steven does not do tests with new faces. yes he does.. however they are not test, they are editorials.. Julia Nobis says otherwise
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