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Mirrorless live view medium format camera.....
How about this. A medium format camera based around a CMOS live view sensor. Canon maybe.... Think about it. This is what I am thinking. A back that could be used on technical cameras, current medium format cameras and a mirrorless compacr body. Seeing as it would have a mirrorless body it could be a 6x7cm sensor and still be about the same size as current MF. Live view focus and framing like the Canon 5d mark II. Canon has extensive CMOS manufacturing capabilities and produces full frme 35mm chips for pennies compared to current MF manufacturers. They have demonstrated the capability of producing relatively inecpensive 8x8 inch sensors that can see in the dark. They could come out with something inbetween the two products... the Canon 5D mark II chip and the 8x8inch chip... and make a 40mp 6x7 or 6x8 sensor and at lower costs than current MF manufacturers. None of the current MF manufacturers make their own chips. Canon has been working on faster on chip focusing syetems too. Apart from that enlarged (zoomed in) live view manual focus is very fast and very accurate. Add to that the fact that even current live view focus isn't really that far off from current MF cameras. Then add to that the fact that even current live view focusing can be selected in the whole frame so no recomposition is necessary.. making it more acurate that current MF. Well you never know... Canon came from nowhere in Large Format Ink Jet printing and went kenk and neck with Epson in no time as far as image quality goes. Mar 23 11 10:33 pm Link It's likely in the works. The 1DsIII is over due for an update and MF is viable for the 1DsIV. Mar 23 11 10:42 pm Link I may be wrong but I cant remember Canon ever being involved with any medium format camera. Nikon at least made lenses for the old school Bronica S2. Of course that doesn't mean that can't do it now. I suspect Canon and Nikon are watching sells and acceptance of the Pentax 645D very carefully. Mar 24 11 01:13 am Link Maybe a camera line based on an 8x8 sensor will become de facto "professional" gear. In other words, anyone not using a hellishly expensive 8x8 will be thrown onto the GWC pile. Could happen. Mar 24 11 01:19 am Link There's not much ether can do at the moment as Nikon Canon and Sony plants in Japan resume production as they have all been shut down due to the earth quake disaster. And I DO hope they can get back to business quickly as I am waiting for the 1Ds mark IV and the 5D mark III Mar 24 11 01:24 am Link It is an interessting idea for a camera. Anything is possible, but I doubt that would be forthcoming from either Nikon or Canon. They have never built medium format cameras. Pentax, on the other hand ... Mar 24 11 05:06 am Link Darin B wrote: MF not 35. I can pretty much say with 100% certainty that Canon will not be making their 1DsIV a MF camera. They would have to add a whole new lens line up. Mar 24 11 05:26 am Link Darin B wrote: 1ds mk4 is old news already Mar 24 11 05:38 am Link AdamPhillips wrote: Thats a 1D MKIV, not a 1DS MKIV. There is no 1DS MKIV yet Mar 24 11 06:14 am Link Fred Greissing wrote: Pennies? Where's my $500 5D Mark III, then? Fred Greissing wrote: Oh really? The sensor I saw was for medical imaging, which has considerably different requirements from conventional photography. Fred Greissing wrote: While that would be a cool idea, I'm pretty certain a 6x7 chip would be a six figure item. How many photographers do you think would line up for a $125,000 camera? Fred Greissing wrote: Nope. They rely on leftover technology from the aerospace and document handling industries, unfortunately. Fred Greissing wrote: While I doubt Canon has any plans in this department, if they were to do it, I think a 36 x 48mm format would be far more likely. Some of their existing lens lineup would require minimal reworking to cover the new format, which would simplify getting launched. Mar 24 11 06:34 am Link o k u t a k e wrote: Sensors are very low power devices, and large sensors are even cooler than smaller ones. There is no heat buildup in sensors. If there is any heat, it's from the higher current devices like the processor and the LCD backlight. Mar 24 11 06:38 am Link Canon and Nikon would have no trouble at all making medium format or large format lenses. They currently make extremely large glass elements. Nikon had made large format lenses as well as medium format lenses, even for the very demanding company Plaubel. Canon also makes lenses for digital cinema and very high end TV cameras. Canon would also have a huge lead on any other MF lens manufacturer because they could incorporate IS and their extremely fast autofocus sytems. Fuji has all the capacity in the world to take on design and manufacturing for 3rd parties. A 6x7 sensor made by a company like Canon that has huge sensor making capacity would not be a six figure product. The 8x8 inch sensor they demonstrated was designed for relatively inexpensive security cameras, it was however low res but see in the dark. One reason why canon maybe considering something along these lines is that their high end consumer equipment has become so good that it has eaten into the high end. At this point they need to make a big leap on the professional end. It seems it would need to be more than cramming in more megapixels into a 35mm DSLR. An intelligently marketed digital back system at a price only canon can afford to manufacture could be very succesfull. A relatively low cost back would apeal to the art photography market when combined with 4x5 cameras, older MF cameras etc. Canon could on the other end combine it with a fast IS high tech and more expensive MF lens system and rigs for the high end pro. Mar 24 11 09:20 am Link William Kious wrote: Sorry to rain on your parade, but a company is unlikely to introduce a brand new format (like 8x8) because it means making a new range of lenses, and taking the huge risk that it will be accepted. Lenses, especially high quality large lenses for a large sensor, are expensive to design and manufacture. Lens design is part engineering, part art, and part black magic Mar 24 11 02:15 pm Link Question isn't whether they can... question is whether they *should*. How much money is in that market compared to the DSLR and P&S market? Low I would guess. They could do it for "bragging rights" or to fund R&D into sensor design (sort of like Formula 1 cars - if you know what they are ) but they'd need a whole new infrastructure - training, support networks etc... My guess is that they'd have to be very serious about that market if they were to enter into it, and my guess is also that the technical issues (although significant) could be the least problematic part of making it work financially. Certainly though, even with the technical elements, it would be very costly and would mean designing a whole new set of lenses, as has been highlighted. Mar 24 11 02:28 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: Makes sense that the processor and LCD are the main sources of heat. Either way, for those who shoot MF, they are usually doing so in order to get the highest image quality. Shooting constantly in live view heats up the camera (At least that's what the manuals say). When the camera heats up so does the sensor which leads to a decrease in image quality and more noise. So not really a good thing when it comes to marketing a mirrorless MF camera. They'd have to separate the LCD and processor somehow without making it too cumbersome. Mar 24 11 03:02 pm Link Fred Greissing wrote: Low end APS format dSLR's are in the $300 range. Fred Greissing wrote: Actually, we don't know what it was designed for, other than as a publicity stunt. Remember the 120 megapixel APS-H sensor they announced just prior to the 8x8 sensor? Fred Greissing wrote: Well their current high end is 21 megapixels, which is the same pixel density as 2004's 20D. Current state of the art for APS cameras is 18mp, so we have a considerable way to go with 35mm full frame. At least to 200mp, I'd say. Fred Greissing wrote: Could it? What's the business case for it? I think the separate back system is a dead end. Integrated cameras are superior in virtually every aspect. The reason for backs in the first place was to make it easy to switch from color to b&w to Polaroid films. With digital, there's no need for this. And selling backs means fewer sales of lenses, where the company's real profits lie. Fred Greissing wrote: The art photography market is best addressed by garage- and warehouse-sized operations. A behemoth like Canon wouldn't be able to make a profit selling to that market. Mar 24 11 03:52 pm Link Frozen Instant Imagery wrote: I wasn't ware that I was having a parade. Frozen Instant Imagery wrote: Uh, yeah. I know. I'm still using a 30D because I can't afford the new bells and whistles. Mar 24 11 03:59 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: Don't base your costs on current MF backs. Mar 24 11 04:25 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: There is no advantage to putting 200mp behind 35mm format lenses. Mar 24 11 04:32 pm Link QC with the size of a 6x7 or 6x8 sensor goes down keeping the quality of each sensor the same with each camera, thus making the cameras way more expensive, I dont remember what it was but the sensor material is hard to keep exact from the sheet. or something like that, basically the bigger the more problems are to arise in the material Mar 24 11 05:42 pm Link Fred Greissing wrote: Of course there is. Fred Greissing wrote: The fundamental difference doesn't get all that noticeable until you are in true LF territory. In particular, 8 x 10 and larger -- then there's a real difference to the look. Sometimes with the smaller formats. I've been considering whether to get an Aero Ektar and a Speed Graphic to get that old large format look with the crazy shallow depth of field. Mar 24 11 08:03 pm Link Fred Greissing wrote: Why not? You're basing yours on complete speculation. At least mine have real numbers behind them. Fred Greissing wrote: $10,000, and the sensor is barely bigger than the 5D's. The diagonal is 55mm, vs 43mm for a 35. The 6x7 sensor you're desiring has a 90mm diagonal. Fred Greissing wrote: And it's a loss leader from a company that mass produces sensors for most of the rest of the industry. It's unlikely that it's profitable. Fred Greissing wrote: In theory, a company with military budgets ought to have a huge advantage, but they sure don't seem to. Mar 24 11 08:09 pm Link Fred Greissing wrote: Converting the Mamiya 7, would make the most sense, while Mar 24 11 08:24 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: Fred Greissing wrote: Why not? You're basing yours on complete speculation. At least mine have real numbers behind them. And how much do the phase and hasselblad backs that use the same 40mp sensor of the Pentax cost? Mar 24 11 09:40 pm Link Fred Greissing wrote: The wonders of running the numbers for a larger production run. Pretty amazing, huh? But you're not going to get those kind of numbers for a 6x7 camera. Even if they got the sensor price down to 4x that of 35mm, the lenses will still be very expensive at the quantities we'd be talking about. Hell, Canon's professional lenses are averaging nearly $2,000 a each as it is. Mar 24 11 09:48 pm Link Stephen Melvin wrote: I don't thing the Pentax 645D was a particularly large production run... I'd say the same volumes as Phase or Hasselblad. Mar 25 11 10:15 am Link The problem with larger format sensors (24 x 36 mm and up through Medium Format) is not one of cramming enough sensels onto them. It is a die mask problem and yield problem. When you make an APS-C sensor, you can do it with a single stepper mask image. If you make a larger sensor like a full frame (24 x 36 mm) sensor, then you have to align two or more masks together. That is expensive because many alignments have to be rejected. Once you have a mask, then it is difficult to get good yield off the semiconductor dies. First, the larger chip size means that there is much more wasted space on the die. Second, the larger chip area means that there is much higher probability that a fatal defect will occur in the chip. So even if you made a 6.0 (six) MPixel sensor in a 6x7 cm format, it would be very expensive. It would cost about the same to make a 60 MPixel sensor in that size, just a little bit more. Mar 25 11 10:26 am Link Monito -- Alan wrote: Well I have heard from a client that Canon is working on large sized sensors for security cameras due to the low light and dynamic range they can produce resulting in better forensic capabilities. These cannot be expensive or the security market will not buy them. Mar 25 11 10:43 am Link Fred Greissing wrote: Your thinking is incorrect. In interviews, Pentax executives said they were able to get the price down by bumping the quantities way up. Everything I've heard from my sources suggests the Pentax is outselling the rest of the MF market combined. Mar 25 11 10:55 am Link |