Good Egg Productions wrote:
Sooooo...

You shot them, gave them the ONE finished edit as promised in your contract, then finished a whole lot of other ones and made a really slick animoto slideshow, showed it to them, but refuse to give them any if the other images you finished for the video.

That sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

How does it hurt you to give them the images you've already done the work for?

If I'm misunderstanding the details here, please let me know.

I should add this was a test shoot to see if I can use them in my classes where I teach Photographers, that is the ONLY time I do TF work, yes they can have other images at a cost.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Sooooo...

You shot them, gave them the ONE finished edit as promised in your contract, then finished a whole lot of other ones and made a really slick animoto slideshow, showed it to them, but refuse to give them any if the other images you finished for the video.

That sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

How does it hurt you to give them the images you've already done the work for?

If I'm misunderstanding the details here, please let me know.

why is that a dick move, if that's all they agreed to? If he gave them a slide show of images, that was above and beyond what he promised, so that ends that.

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Sooooo...

You shot them, gave them the ONE finished edit as promised in your contract, then finished a whole lot of other ones and made a really slick animoto slideshow, showed it to them, but refuse to give them any if the other images you finished for the video.

That sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

How does it hurt you to give them the images you've already done the work for?

If I'm misunderstanding the details here, please let me know.

Kenneth Light Studios wrote:
I should add this was a test shoot to see if I can use them in my classes where I teach Photographers, that is the ONLY time I do TF work, yes they can have other images at a cost.

Still, kind of a dick move regardless.
They should have read the contract. So in the end it is their fault for all of this.

pullins photography wrote:

why is that a dick move, if that's all they agreed to? If he gave them a slide show of images, that was above and beyond what he promised, so that ends that.

That’s it simply put, I am still kind of in shock that they are even trying this but I suspect more to the point they are both trying to just mark me on BBB.

They have always had the right to purchase more images and I do cut a break to models that shoot TF for testing to get included into my paid classes that they get paid in.

So yes I have gone over and above, no other person or model has had an issue with this but this girl and her boyfriend.

I even made them read the contract carefully and asked them if they had at the end before signing to make sure.

Silly models!

Kenneth Light Studios wrote:

I should add this was a test shoot to see if I can use them in my classes where I teach Photographers, that is the ONLY time I do TF work, yes they can have other images at a cost.

At this point you may as well stick to your guns. Your relationship with these people is already destroyed. No matter what you do, they won't be recommending you to any of their friends.

TF or not, you had an opportunity to make them happier than possible and have two people advertising for you. And it would have been a simple email with attachments. But you refused and tried to get money from them. Well, no money, and now you have two people telling everyone they know what a dick (their perception) you are.

For the record, I don't think you're a dick. I just think you handled this situation poorly.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

At this point you may as well stick to your guns. Your relationship with these people is already destroyed. No matter what you do, they won't be recommending you to any of their friends.

TF or not, you had an opportunity to make them happier than possible and have two people advertising for you. And it would have been a simple email with attachments. But you refused and tried to get money from them. Well, no money, and now you have two people telling everyone they know what a dick (their perception) you are.

For the record, I don't think you're a dick. I just think you handled this situation poorly.

+1

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Sooooo...

You shot them, gave them the ONE finished edit as promised in your contract, then finished a whole lot of other ones and made a really slick animoto slideshow, showed it to them, but refuse to give them any if the other images you finished for the video.

That sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

How does it hurt you to give them the images you've already done the work for?

If I'm misunderstanding the details here, please let me know.

+1...and I don't think it has anything to do with "the models on mm", I bet you any money a "model you meet in the streets" has just as high of a flake risk as any other, especially since he/she may has never modeled before and gets cold feet at the last minute. I get that you want them to stick to what they agreed to, but what the hell would it hurt to just give them one of the finished copies of something you've already finished. It's not like they are asking you to send them every raw image or edit images you hadn't agreed to. Seems a but harsh and unnecessary on your part as well, in my opinion. I shot with a photog 5 months ago, he agreed to send me a copy of ALLLLL of the shots, not all edited, but all regardless. I got 5 so far, and that was once again 5 MONTHS ago, he even messaged me to tell me he was going to mail me the cd. yeeeahhh. But I haven't filed any kind of complaint or anything. I don't see the issue with dealing with each person on a case by case basis, just like real life. Not everything has to be so cut and dry or black and white all the time. Compromise is a beautiful thing.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

At this point you may as well stick to your guns. Your relationship with these people is already destroyed. No matter what you do, they won't be recommending you to any of their friends.

TF or not, you had an opportunity to make them happier than possible and have two people advertising for you. And it would have been a simple email with attachments. But you refused and tried to get money from them. Well, no money, and now you have two people telling everyone they know what a dick (their perception) you are.

For the record, I don't think you're a dick. I just think you handled this situation poorly.

I actually do go more out of my way but when the drama starts I shut it down, simple as that, yes I am sure she will bad mouth me, but if it comes back to me, watch out

So yes they may well have gotten more, but as soon as the hard nasty emails came demanding, well thats when I shut it down and go back to contract.

I have plenty of Brides and brides maids and families overly happy and very close to me over the years, they know the real deal and would not listen to any single model trying to bad mouth me.

All my brides are my word of mouth and they bring me so much business because of the way I treat them.

ChakraShine wrote:

+1...and I don't think it has anything to do with "the models on mm", I bet you any money a "model you meet in the streets" has just as high of a flake risk as any other, especially since he/she may has never modeled before and gets cold feet at the last minute. I get that you want them to stick to what they agreed to, but what the hell would it hurt to just give them one of the finished copies of something you've already finished. It's not like they are asking you to send them every raw image or edit images you hadn't agreed to. Seems a but harsh and unnecessary on your part as well, in my opinion. I shot with a photog 5 months ago, he agreed to send me a copy of ALLLLL of the shots, not all edited, but all regardless. I got 5 so far, and that was once again 5 MONTHS ago, he even messaged me to tell me he was going to mail me the cd. yeeeahhh. But I haven't filed any kind of complaint or anything. I don't see the issue with dealing with each person on a case by case basis, just like real life. Not everything has to be so cut and dry or black and white all the time. Compromise is a beautiful thing.

"compromise" is the contract. Evidently, people have an issue with living with their mistakes, or whatever they agreed to...that's not the way life goes.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
did you pay them?

what does that have to do with anything?

ChakraShine wrote:

+1...and I don't think it has anything to do with "the models on mm", I bet you any money a "model you meet in the streets" has just as high of a flake risk as any other, especially since he/she may has never modeled before and gets cold feet at the last minute. I get that you want them to stick to what they agreed to, but what the hell would it hurt to just give them one of the finished copies of something you've already finished. It's not like they are asking you to send them every raw image or edit images you hadn't agreed to. Seems a but harsh and unnecessary on your part as well, in my opinion. I shot with a photog 5 months ago, he agreed to send me a copy of ALLLLL of the shots, not all edited, but all regardless. I got 5 so far, and that was once again 5 MONTHS ago, he even messaged me to tell me he was going to mail me the cd. yeeeahhh. But I haven't filed any kind of complaint or anything. I don't see the issue with dealing with each person on a case by case basis, just like real life. Not everything has to be so cut and dry or black and white all the time. Compromise is a beautiful thing.

Now would you sign a contract for one image if you were doing?

I don’t do this part time I am a fully professional working photographer, my rate is $150 per hour and has been for a couple of years with no problem getting that.

My images sell in print some for 350 dollars for a single image, I sell my digitals for low res and high res pricing.

I even reduce this a bit for models and yes I do charge for Models to build ports.
Many a photographer starting out will offer more images to models for their time.

That’s cool, but honestly, I am not going to do that when I have no need to, it’s my time, they are under test for inclusion to paid work classes.

So one image, they read it fully and signed it happily and they also got a video of all images plus vintage video included.

Simply put, that’s all baby

Most models and some photographers will think I am bring a D**K but honestly, if your in the profession and earning your living from it and demanding and getting the money you want, why would you give stuff away?  I am sure once said model builds ports, she or he will never give it away unless it benefits her or him in some way, right?

Good Egg Productions wrote:

At this point you may as well stick to your guns. Your relationship with these people is already destroyed. No matter what you do, they won't be recommending you to any of their friends.

TF or not, you had an opportunity to make them happier than possible and have two people advertising for you. And it would have been a simple email with attachments. But you refused and tried to get money from them. Well, no money, and now you have two people telling everyone they know what a dick (their perception) you are.

For the record, I don't think you're a dick. I just think you handled this situation poorly.

I agree.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
did you pay them?

This was a test, if they get paid as they do if they are included in the classses, they dont get images, they got paid.

This couple did not get paid, it was a test!

pullins photography wrote:

why is that a dick move, if that's all they agreed to? If he gave them a slide show of images, that was above and beyond what he promised, so that ends that.

Here's WHY it's a dick move.

Do TF shoot. Deliver the ONE promised image. Ok, fine.

THEN, create amazingly gorgeous slideshow of lots of images from the shoot, and allow the models to see it, but not own a copy. I know animoto allows you to create a DVD of your slideshow creations. Further, use all their images in this slideshow for self promotion, but do not allow the actors/models to have those images for themselves.

Yes, the contract says what the contract says. I get that. Legally, you have no obligation to them beyond what you said you would in the contract.

The dick move comes in when you've ALREADY done the work on the edits but refuse to deliver them to the models just because you feel they need to pay for them.  Yet, you're using those edited photos for self promotion. Whie your release says you can, it's simply not fair (from the models' perspective) because they obviously didn't understand the contract they signed.

All I'm saying is that it would have only benefitted you to give them those edits. Instead, there are two people doing ANYTHING they can to speak poorly of you. Word of mouth advertising is very powerful.

Kenneth Light Studios wrote:
And yes your right, this is down to them not Modelmayhem, just seems so much drama comes from MM models of late, but who knows why.

Was it a model who started this drama-laden thread?

Tyler Brad wrote:

Good Egg Productions wrote:
Sooooo...

You shot them, gave them the ONE finished edit as promised in your contract, then finished a whole lot of other ones and made a really slick animoto slideshow, showed it to them, but refuse to give them any if the other images you finished for the video.

That sounds like a bit of a dick move to me.

How does it hurt you to give them the images you've already done the work for?

If I'm misunderstanding the details here, please let me know.

Still, kind of a dick move regardless.
They should have read the contract. So in the end it is their fault for all of this.

Agreed. Dick move.
Their bad.

pullins photography wrote:

what does that have to do with anything?

In some states that makes a big difference.
Not sure about NC though... and payment could be the photos themselves if it
is worded properly on the agreement.

Good Egg Productions wrote:

Here's WHY it's a dick move.

Do TF shoot. Deliver the ONE promised image. Ok, fine.

THEN, create amazingly gorgeous slideshow of lots of images from the shoot, and allow the models to see it, but not own a copy. I know animoto allows you to create a DVD of your slideshow creations. Further, use all their images in this slideshow for self promotion, but do not allow the actors/models to have those images for themselves.

Yes, the contract says what the contract says. I get that. Legally, you have no obligation to them beyond what you said you would in the contract.

The dick move comes in when you've ALREADY done the work on the edits but refuse to deliver them to the models just because you feel they need to pay for them.  Yet, you're using those edited photos for self promotion. Whie your release says you can, it's simply not fair (from the models' perspective) because they obviously didn't understand the contract they signed.

All I'm saying is that it would have only benefitted you to give them those edits. Instead, there are two people doing ANYTHING they can to speak poorly of you. Word of mouth advertising is very powerful.

hey, so he gives the complainers a slideshow presentation, which is essentially a gift, and the OP is a dick because he refuses to give them the ingredients to do what they want with original images? I'd say they're a bunch of ingrates, who don't get life, and were told by some GWC or some "model" that they were "entitled" to everything. 
Oh and just as "bad mouthing" gets passed around, so does being used.

F-n-D wrote:
The only dick move here is from the models. They signed a contract for one photo, and give him the has rights to them all to use for advertising etc..he uses some of their images in a nice slideshow and shares it with them..they love it then later demand all of the images, not just the ones he used in the slideshow, and also demand that he give up the rights they gave him in the contract. It wouldn't have been nice of him to comply, it would have just been downright stupid.

We only know what the OP told us as his perception of the facts. I highly doubt that the first email after seeing the video slideshow was DEMANDING all images and DEMANDING he ceases use of their images for promotion.

I'll agree the models are being ridiculous here, and involving the BBB is just silly.

I stand by my opinion that there were way better ways to handle this situation.

Kenneth Light Studios wrote:
This couple did not get paid, it was a test!

so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...
nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

Ex Voto  Studio wrote:

In some states that makes a big difference.
Not sure about NC though... and payment could be the photos themselves if it
is worded properly on the agreement.

if you're talking about "consideration," it's not always "money." Bartering is an exchange, which is what they did.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:

so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...
nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

a contract is a contract. There's no need for the OP to give into these people's wanting to unring a bell they rung

Kenneth Light Studios wrote:
This was a test, if they get paid as they do if they are included in the classses, they dont get images, they got paid.

This couple did not get paid, it was a test!

Some states will need financial compensation associated with the agreement,  even  5 bucks can make it binding.

If I understand correctly you are using this for your advertising?

Only my personal opinion:
-You could have shared a bit more if they were already done and saved yourself
  some time wasted.
-They could have offered you a some money if they wanted them that bad.
-If a client hired you for a free "test shoot" to see if they liked your work and then you found them using said images from the test (because they liked them so much)  for advertising how would you feel?

The above scenario is not the same as your situation but think like the other side for a moment.  I am not saying anyone was right or wrong in this scenario... all of you could have made better choices that led up to it though.

It is easy to be legally right about something these days but that has nothing to do with being right ethically or morally.

The sad thing is that it is too late... you cannot give the images now without losing face and appearing to give in.  Nor can they just drop their claim without looking like dumb asses.

Keep us posted on how it goes.... Good luck!

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

pullins photography wrote:
a contract is a contract. There's no need for the OP to give into these people's wanting to unring a bell they rung

there's a real good reason, he said his business was word of mouth...

well that works both ways...good and bad.

got a counter point?

Ex Voto  Studio wrote:

Some states will need financial compensation associated with the agreement,  even  5 bucks can make it binding.

If I understand correctly you are using this for your advertising?

Only my personal opinion:
-You could have shared a bit more if they were already done and saved yourself
  some time wasted.
-They could have offered you a some money if they wanted them that bad.
-If a client hired you for a free "test shoot" to see if they liked your work and then you found them using said images from the test (because they liked them so much)  for advertising how would you feel?

The above scenario is not the same as your situation but think like the other side for a moment.  I am not saying anyone was right or wrong in this scenario... all of you could have made better choices that led up to it though.

It is easy to be legally right about something these days but that has nothing to do with being right ethically or morally.

The sad thing is that it is too late... you cannot give the images now without losing face and appearing to give in.  Nor can they just drop their claim without looking like dumb asses.

Keep us posted on how it goes.... Good luck!

where does the OP say he's using the images for advertising?

S W I N S K E Y wrote:

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

there's a real good reason, he said his business was word of mouth...

well that works both ways...good and bad.

got a counter point?

I guess that depends on his business model. 

Me.... whatever I edit I am willing to give if this type of scenario.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

there's a real good reason, he said his business was word of mouth...

well that works both ways...good and bad.

got a counter point?

outside of sticking to what he promised to deliver and he did, nope.  There are established principles, and it's about those, and not about "aw shucks, I didn't get my way, so do it this way for me, waaaah!"

pullins photography wrote:

where does the OP say he's using the images for advertising?

I looked at the video and assumed that is what he was doing given it's nature and the wording in it.

Ex Voto  Studio wrote:

I guess that depends on his business model. 

Me.... whatever I edit I am willing to give if this type of scenario.

what kind of successful business model is there, when wrong behavior is rewarded?

S W I N S K E Y wrote:

so you didnt pay them and you are using the images for your marketing...
nice..lose the arrogance, give em the fucking pics...

Interesting point.

You got them to sign a contract that was extremely favorable to you. So they gave you a couple hours of their time and you gave them one sized image with your logo on it.

Then you flaunt the fact that you finished a bunch of other images of them for your own use.  Of COURSE they feel slighted and taken advantage of. They don't understand the time it takes to finish images or how much work it does (or doesn't) take to create an animoto slideshow. So they have no perception of value added to them. all they see is their images, that they can't have, as advertising you.

There's no good solution here, as even if you give them everything at this point, they aren't going to change their opinion of you. I'd say just end all communication with them, as I'm sure you have. However, I might remove the video and maybe only make it available to show to future clients privately. Or don't.  I don't know.