David Lumen Photography wrote:
Lots of interesting answers here.  Using a freelance photographer and model approach, I would say that at a minimum, time should be clocked continuously from the time the photographer starts to when they finish.  Unless a MUA/H is involved, the model is expected to have done her own hair and makeup.

Concerning pay off-camera and travel time..my perception is that the model's ultimate value to the situation is what she brings when she is in front of the lens.  I may be paying $75 to $100/hr during this time for two hours work, and can't justify paying this same rate for travel time or being worked on by a MUA/H.  If the situation calls for it, I will subsidize travel and makeup time at about 1.5 times a normal hourly wage, which rounds out to $15/hr right now for travel and sitting in makeup.  I will also pay for gasoline...and if a bus ticket ever entered into the situation, I would pay for that too.

My basic philosophy is that I WANT the model to walk away with two hours modeling pay free and clear of what it cost her to get to and from the shoot, as well as get ready for it.

Ideally, you shouldnt travel for longer than youre shooting unless youre going to work it into your rate somehow.

Ive never said "my rates are 100/hour, so 200 for our 2 hours of shooting and my travel time is another 3 hours so 300 for that, totalling to 500", I just say "I can do up to a half day for 500." If they want a half day, great, if they say "well I only need 2 hours" I just explain that I cant justify the effort it takes to get to and from them for less than my quoted price, so they can still shoot me for only 2 hours if thats their plan, but the price is firm. Im offering more time to make it worth their while. Or they come to me. Or they hook me up with another shoot that will pay me as well. Or I book other work in their town and they host me/put me up in a hotel.

typically, itemizing your rates just turns people off. And frankly its none of their business WHY my rate is what my rate is, they either want to shoot or they dont.

Eowyn-Rose wrote:
I use hourly rates as very rarely does someone actually want me for a half or full day.
I always arrive to a shoot camera ready with a basic natural make up look and hair down (I ask before hand if they want curly or straight), and ask if the photographer wants me to elaborate makeup or a more extensive hair style. When I've worked with a MUA I still arrive with basics done and then assume any more elaborate makeup is on their time.

if you know a MUA will be there, why would you arrive with make up on?

any mua that is worth something will start by taking it all off to begin with, no one wants to pile on to what you did at home.

personally I think that if a MUA will be present, you arrive with a clean face (no mascare, no nothing)

Kelleth wrote:
From the calltime you are given (unless you're late) to the time the shoot is wrapped (the last photo is taken).

+1

MoRina wrote:
If you are doing your own makeup, then either have it done when you walk in, or tell them that you will arrive early in time to do your makeup first.  If there is an MUA, that time should be paid time, and this should be confirmed as well.

Why should someone have to arrive early to do their makeup? You're saying they shouldn't be paid for that time? If so, that makes very little sense to me. Their preparation is part of the job.

And as for walking in made up, I actually generally prefer models show up and do their makeup after they arrive, because I can have some input into what they do. If they show up all made up then I'm basically stuck with what they decided.

MoRina wrote:

In my experience, if a photographer wants a certain type of look, they have let me know ahead of time.  I bring my makeup with me to touch up and adjust lip colors, etc. as the shoot goes on.

It is very generous that you are willing to pay a model for her time doing her own makeup, but this is not the norm in the freelance market.  If I showed up and spent 30 or 45 minutes doing my makeup, I would guess that the photographers would start the clock when I was done.  I have had photographers chat for 20 minutes when I arrive, take 20 minutes to go through what I brought and pick out lingerie, and expect to pay me starting when they finally pick up the camera.  By arriving with my makeup done, it signals that I am ready to shoot at the agreed-upon start time.

So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?

It's something you discuss prior to the shoot taking place. You make your position clear well in advance of the day of the shoot. If you want to be "on the clock" the moment you arrive, then say as much. It's all about how you handle your pre-shoot negotiations. It seems you want to find a way to be honest about what you want without losing potential jobs.

There are always going to be photographers who interpret the all-business, no-nonsense approach as being greedy and/or rude. Maintaining a sweet, friendly image is, in many ways, inconsistent with making demands. Other photographers will welcome that you're up-front about what you want (no hassles, no surprises.) It's a coin toss. I will say, however, that quite a few photographers are going to balk at paying you for every minute you're in studio.

Seems to me, you want to maximize every single penny you bring in without being viewed as a money-grubbing "B". I'm not sure that's possible (again, making demands rarely, if ever, comes across as "friendly".)

I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.

IDiivil wrote:

+1

+2

If I have to do my own makeup, that still counts as time.
It only takes me 10-20 mins depending on what the photographer wants me to do. I don't dick around and waste time while I'm doing it either, that's just low.

The majority of the time the photographer is setting up his/her lighting while I'm doing my makeup if they haven't set it up already.

William Kious wrote:

It's something you discuss prior to the shoot taking place. You make your position clear well in advance of the day of the shoot. If you want to be "on the clock" the moment you arrive, then say as much. It's all about how you handle your pre-shoot negotiations. It seems you want to find a way to be honest about what you want without losing potential jobs.

There are always going to be photographers who interpret the all-business, no-nonsense approach as being greedy and/or rude. Maintaining a sweet, friendly image is, in many ways, inconsistent with making demands. Other photographers will welcome that you're up-front about what you want (no hassles, no surprises.) It's a coin toss. I will say, however, that quite a few photographers are going to balk at paying you for every minute you're in studio.

Seems to me, you want to maximize every single penny you bring in without being viewed as a money-grubbing "B". I'm not sure that's possible (again, making demands rarely, if ever, comes across as "friendly".)

I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.

Well, in the beginning I was simply asking when the clock usually starts on a photoshoot, since I had no idea how that worked. Then, the majority of people told me it starts when you 'walk in the door'. So taking that, now I'm simply asking how to relay that to a photographer... I hope that I'm not coming across as anything but curious, but of course people will always put their own spin on things. Before starting this thread I was generally getting paid for 1-2 hours of work after spending 3-4 hours or more at a shoot... I just figured that that isn't the way things should go.

If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

It's just the way certain questions have been posed... and we all bring our own personal experiences into the mix. I've paid models who have spent as much time on their cell phones as they have in front of the lens.

In reality, in the freelance world, it's not always easy to strike a balance that's fair and equitable to both parties. Issues of professionalism often crop up on BOTH sides. If you are at the shoot for four hours - doing things that are productive and part of the process - then you should be paid for those four hours. The issue arises when people want paid for things that really aren't part of the process. Again, it's all part of the negotiations.

Here are a few key issues that have been raised in this thread so far (and this is just my opinion):

- Should a model be paid for travel time? I say no (especially if the photographer is already covering expenses.)

- Should you be paid for your time in makeup? This one is a little tougher to answer. If you're dealing with a commercial shoot, yes. If it's freelance work, I guess it depends on whether or not you are doing your own makeup. If an MUA is involved, I say no (I'm already paying the MUA, so why would should I pay you just for sitting there?) I wouldn't object to paying a model for makeup time if she's using her own supplies and can complete the look in a reasonable amount of time.

- Should a model be paid while a photographer is setting up? Again, this one is a little slippery for me. The flake rate is so high, that many photographers don't want to set up until the model actually arrives. Is that your fault? Of course not. Then again, if you're busy doing your makeup - and it's a reasonable time frame - then I wouldn't object to paying (so long as you're doing something constructive.)

- Should a model be paid while selecting wardrobe? That takes time out of the shoot for both parties, so I say no. It's something that should be discussed in advance, anyway.

"Fair" is a very subjective term...

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
But in some of the shoots I've been paid for, whenever the shooting stops for any reason, the time stops.

Are you saying that the shoot has started but the photographer is actually stopping the time as if you were being clocked out for a break? And then starts it back up once he begins shooting again?

Because, if that's the case, it's laughably absurd...and cheap...and unprofessional.

We can argue when the time should start (before or after makeup application, etc). But once it does start...it doesn't stop because the photographer needs to rearrange lights, reapply makeup...or whatever. This isn't 2 hours of NFL time where the clock stops for penalties. What if you have to use the restroom? Does he make you punch out?

I'm actually laughing out loud. Maybe the photographer used to be a manager at McDonalds.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
So when that happens - the photographer takes 40 minutes chatting and picking wardrobe when you are ready from the moment you walked in - how do you tell the photographer that you were on the clock 40 minutes ago? What is a good way of saying that the clock starts when you arrive ready (during initial emails), so that you don't seem greedy or rude?

William Kious wrote:
I'm not trying to offend you - I realize that you're trying to find a way to get paid what you feel you're due - but the way you're coming across in this thread would make me very reluctant to hire you for paid work.

Rachael Bueckert wrote:
Well, in the beginning I was simply asking when the clock usually starts on a photoshoot, since I had no idea how that worked. Then, the majority of people told me it starts when you 'walk in the door'. So taking that, now I'm simply asking how to relay that to a photographer... I hope that I'm not coming across as anything but curious, but of course people will always put their own spin on things. Before starting this thread I was generally getting paid for 1-2 hours of work after spending 3-4 hours or more at a shoot... I just figured that that isn't the way things should go.

If wanting to be treated and paid fairly for my time is a deterant to work with me, then I'd have to say I'd be reluctant to work with you too.

Everyone wants to be treated fairly and your curiosity is common among many.

Once a start and stop time are agreed upon before the shoot, you should let the photographer know that you have commitments after the shoot, and you need to leave at the stop time...and confirm that you will be there a few minutes before the start time.  (That "commitment" could be to yourself, and you should politely decline any questions about the commitment.)

When start time rolls around...say you are ready.  When stop time arrives...politely say you need to go.  You can offer to squeeze in another 5 or  ten minutes to wrap up a look to keep the good will going...but you need to stop so you can keep your follow-on commitment.

When it comes to paying you for pre-shoot makeup time...especially if a MUA is involved...a number of posters say you should be paid for this.  No one has yet to say how much...except for me in a previous post.  I can tell you that if a model wanted her modeling rate for this time...it would kill the deal.  However, I can see offering a nominal amount for her time...which I put at 1.5 times a normal hourly rate for general employment.

What I have done thus far is explain that I don't provide images to models for paid shoots...as that is the purpose of TF.  I also explain that a MUA's work will make a much better image, and I will offer a few portworthy images as a tradeoff for not paying for the time with the MUA.  So far this has worked, but I don't use an MUA very often.

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
Not paying a model while they apply makeup makes no more sense than the photographer only charging their clients for the time they're taking photo,  not charging while the lights are setup or directions are being given to the subjects..

Models are hired for an agree upon time.   They aren't able to make any money modeling for anyone else.  They are owed the money.

Exactly. I am genuinely surprised at the number of responses on this thread saying time in the makeup chair shouldn't be paid for. I have never experienced that in all my years modelling; that includes everything from agency advertising work to the smallest freelance non-commercial shoot.

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
If I asked a model to shoot for pay and be at the studio say from 8AM until 12PM, I'd pay her for the full 4 hours.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. In my mind, that becomes a 1/4 day rate and is all-inclusive of whatever happens in that 4 hours. The issue at hand is when people choose to pay hourly (or want paid hourly.)

KevinMcGowanPhotography wrote:
Not paying a model while they apply makeup makes no more sense than the photographer only charging their clients for the time they're taking photo,  not charging while the lights are setup or directions are being given to the subjects..

You're including that time in your calculations, I'm guessing. If I am paying the model by the hour (and paying an MUA by the hour), why should the model be paid for sitting in a chair? When a given model quotes $100/hour, and it takes an hour to complete hair and makeup, she's making $100 for sitting there and chatting with the MUA.

Another issue... are you going to pay the model for the additional hour it takes her to get to your studio? How about paying her for the drive home?

Again, the quibbles seem to arise when we pit hourly pay versus an agreed upon "block" of time. It's hourly versus salary, really. IMHO, go with a salary model and set a specific time frame. It avoids all hair splitting.

Art of the nude wrote:
You weren't clear at first.  If the shoot hasn't started because YOU aren't ready, there's some basis for discussion.  If it's past the agreed time and THEY aren't ready, you should be paid.  I did have one model very kindly not charge when I was an hour late, but there was 20 inches of snow the night before and getting to the site 120 miles away was a bit of a challenge.  She deferred my time, and we got the full time and rate.

If I did my makeup before arriving to the shoot location, it wouldn't look as ideal. So I tend to do makeup on set, not before.

Just like when I do pay a photographer, I'm not just paying for the time the shoot takes, but also the post work.

Same deal.

JAE Photography PA wrote:
I start the clock when the model walks in the door.  I think anything other then that should be discussed ahead of time.

+1

Tropical Photography wrote:
My view is if there is an MUA involved, then no, I'm not paying for that time.. If the model is doing the make up, then I expect them to come in with the first look on.. We may need to tweak, but basically should be ready to go..

What if the model has to use public transit for 1+ hour to get to the shoot? The makeup might have smudged.

KModel Photography wrote:
Many of the artists models I work with slip off their dress almost as soon as they arrive without me asking or even being quite ready. They say its because they prefer the au-natural state and want to get comfortable, but I always thought it was because they wanted the clock to start straight way   But its true too that it does help with getting comfortable, after 10-15 min it is normal and relaxed for everyone.

Hi! Just to jump in, this could also be because it needs some time for the clothing marks to lift off the skin. I've been to some shoots(bikini / nude) where the model starts taking off their clothes just about when the photographer is ready but then realise they still have to wait some more time because the bra or panties left some marks / lines on the skin.

With regards the topic, I'd say from what the agreed time is up to the end of the shoot. Otherwise, bigger projects also pay per project (commercials, print ads) but they have a set time.  For example, shoot is 8AM - 6PM. If it finishes early, you still get paid the same as the offer is for the entire project. If it gets extended, I know a lot would not bother to charge extra as in this case as it's part of a client-relationship that you want keep a positive relationship and good vibes. Only in extreme cases such as having 3-hour extension to the agreed end then model(s) or their agent(s) ask for more.

Alivia Autumn wrote:
You certainly shouldn't be paid for makeup and styling, especially if it takes you hours, a pro MUA could have your full face done in 15-20 mins, same goes for hair.  As a fellow model, I think what's fair would be from the moment you start shooting until the shoot is finished.  If the photographer is taking forever to set up, sure I guess you could try to justify being paid.

I have had pro MUA's take two hours; sometimes longer. There is no question of not being paid for this time in any other theatre of modelling eg for a fashion show or for a shoot in a fashion house for catalogue etc. So generally I expect photographers to understand this too and they do - I never had anyone suggest not paying me for that time in preparation. Frequently the photographer will be scouting location setting up equipment or simply doing another job while that is happening but you get paid from when you arrive at the agreed time. Though I usually do a day rate for photographers rather than an hour rate and find this means they don't have to worry about it.

One time I was hours with a hair stylist/MUA  London fashion week who had just come back from an after party and had been up all night. He wasn't very well a few times so had to go off now and again The prep thus took several hours for me and other models and other stylists then the director come in and says...no no ...'more bed head for all of them' - so then took ages again. Absolutely no question of me not getting paid for that time and certainly no suggestion I arrive already made up or do it myself!

Of course if there is no MUA I shall arrive how the photographer has asked to the best of my ability - so that's different.

Wolfy4u wrote:
If a shoot is client based, and both the model and photographer are being paid, then I think the model should be paid starting as soon as she walks in the room, and some travel money if it's a long distance to the shoot.
However, if it's a shoot with no income, I've found that the models I've worked with understand that I have limited resources and that both of us contribute extra time to get ready, so they've all allowed me to pay from the time of the first image. Good models tend to earn four times per hour what I used to earn, so they walk home with a substantial amount of money in their pockets. Most understand that the few extra minutes that it takes to get ready to shoot probably doesn't impair their income for the day.
In exchange, I'm never picky about their makeup or hair, and I'm generous with giving even paid models photos from the shoot.

The problem is when pro MUA and stylists are involved it never takes a few minutes and often there are complete changes in styling. In fact I have spent up to seven hours being styled during the day including between shoots and maybe only two hours being shot or for runway just minutes actually being seen. Then even when ready often the MUA/hair stylist then has another model or two to do before the shoot/show can commence so once again that is time I expect to be paid for.
Then you have sometimes crazy make-up and special effects latex stuff or body painting etc which can take even longer though mercifully I have only had that once or twice though have heard horror stories from models who have been movie extras etc. Often for example all day in make-up then they don't get used for the shooting time and they may do this all week and shoot for ten minutes. Of course they get paid.

Having said that it is why I generally with photographers quote a day (project) rate rather than an hour rate so the issue doesn't arise.

AJScalzitti wrote:
Well the norm is day and 1/2 day rates, per hour is not.  As for when, it's whatever the call time is for.  Obviously if you are a hour early and sitting in the waiting room texting you should not get paid, just like a day job.  If the photographer is a hour over fixing lights then you would get paid, just like a day job.

Now around MM it's not uncommon for new photographer or even models to think "when shooting starts" so communications and education are key.  Things around here are never the norm.

+1 This exactly