dave phoenix wrote:
Sounds to me like the problem is you're marketing yourself to the wrong people. You're trying to sell a filet mignon to someone who just wants a cheap burger.

This.

Paul Snyder wrote:
I understand the market is a bit flooded with ""retouchers"" who are charging next to nothing and many photographers feel like this is how what we all should charge.

The sad thing is that you're currently contributing to that effect. I guess it's not intentional, but you do. You providing higher quality service for lower price. I also doubt you can live off your current rates.

If you're satisfied with your retouching skill and believe that you can offer great service it's good time to start investing in learning marketing.

James Trapp Photoraphy wrote:
we have all figured out all the secrets of Photoshop.

Hmmmm ....

Asiris Creative wrote:
If you're satisfied with your retouching skill and believe that you can offer great service it's good time to start investing in learning marketing.

I mean I am satisfied with my skills, but I also don't think that I am intentionally marketing myself to these kind of clients.  I feel like the quality in my portfolio is a bit higher than most, but for some reason I guess I'm attracting lower level clients.

I had to take a few marketing classes at my university already actually, but maybe my problem isn't that I'm marketing myself to the wrong clients but that I'm not doing enough marketing in general. 

I don't know. I guess this is why I was just making a thread to just get a bit of advice from people who've already made more of a name for themselves.

Tim Whitney wrote:
Well if you're trying to go from, let's say, $15 image to $35 an image you're really not moving to a new level. You're just more expensive at the same level. Think big. Think $200 per image or $500. I know of at least one retoucher here in NYC getting $1600/image. He's an outlier, and does lots of celebrity work, but still...

You gotta know your market, though. If you want high end work your clients won't be local photographers doing beauty shoots or portraits for the general public. You shouldn't expect to get those rates off of this site, either. Instead you'd look at ad agencies, PR departments at corporations or Photographers billing you through to the same.

This is all definitely the objective haha.  I realize everyone does have to start somewhere, but I'm not sure how to find my way up to those agencies/PR departments etc. It all seems nearly impossible sometimes

Tim Whitney wrote:
Get some full length images featuring clothing, handbags or even sunglasses. Get an image or two to show your ability to composite, too. You'll be asked to do a lot of it and it's generally worth more money.

It's interesting you say this because I have recently noticed this myself and have been trying to talk to photographers who do more fashion than beauty.  So working on this! 

Tim Whitney wrote:
You're doing pretty good work and you deserved to be payed well for it but you have to ask the right people and be able to show them what they want to see. And you might need to move to the right market. I get a lot of my work through the people I know and the people I get to know though my clients. I live in NYC so that's fairly easy to do.

It may take a lot of cold calling but once you get one good client, they can introduce you to other good clients. Don't be afraid to move to a large market and find a house to work at, either.

I attempted to do this a few months ago, but nothing much came of it even after applying a bunch of places in NY and LA.  I just recently graduated college in May so the plan was to move to a bigger market but it's proved more difficult than I anticipated haha  I decided to hold up on that and build up my portfolio a bit more before trying again, which I think I am going to do fairly soon.  Fingers crossed and trying to stay positive. 

Really though thanks for all the advice!  I really do appreciate it.  Just trying to figure all this out and it helps to have the knowledge of someone who's already traveled the path a bit.

I only test for a maximum of two images at a time.

Shame... Imagine I'm a photographer and I have an editorial for elle, I've worked with Elle before did some covers for them but this is not a cover it's an inside piece of 7 images. I saw your work and I liked it - Wanted to test you with an editorial (great way to test a retoucher, because I get to see if they have a good attitude, are good at communication, they can respect deadlines and understand references. I also get to see if they are able to work on stories and not just single images). But I guess I'll pass on you because you don't understand any of this

Paul Snyder wrote:
Fingers crossed and trying to stay positive.

That's a good thing.

Tim Whitney wrote:
I wish you the best of luck Paul. It's hard and took me almost 2 years while working a day job. It was a combination of meeting the right person at the right time and being prepared to sell myself when the opportunity came. Talk it up to friends and acquaintances you never know who they know. I got my first "Real" retouching job from a FoaF who happened to be a creative coordinator in need of a retoucher.

Also, don't ever turn down a job because you think you can't handle it. I took on a lot of jobs at first that I thought, "How the hell am I going to do this?" Then I just proceeded to do it. Fear is good. You learn a lot of things that way that are very hard to share in things like tutorials and forum posts.

Here's a good quote from Paul Arden:
"Talent helps, but it won’t take you as far as ambition. Everybody wants to be good, but not many are prepared to make the sacrifices it takes to be great."

+1

I got a Coca Cola Campaign because I talked to the producer without knowing and he was concerned about weather so I explain it could be done in post if the weather didn't change, explained how and what they needed. I didn't know who he was or who was behind the project. He called me the next week: It's still raining, lets do it your way.

Natalia_Taffarel wrote:
Shame... Imagine I'm a photographer and I have an editorial for elle, I've worked with Elle before did some covers for them but this is not a cover it's an inside piece of 7 images. I saw your work and I liked it - Wanted to test you with an editorial (great way to test a retoucher, because I get to see if they have a good attitude, are good at communication, they can respect deadlines and understand references. I also get to see if they are able to work on stories and not just single images). But I guess I'll pass on you because you don't understand any of this

Well I only added this part recently after a few photographers tried sending me 7-8 images and tried to get me to do them all for free (even after I explained that I wasn't going to do that many images for nothing). 

I'm assuming I need to get rid of that now haha

Paul Snyder wrote:
When I try to quote any higher than that, they'll sometimes just disappear and never even tell me they went to another retoucher (who doesn't do as good as work as I do).

Seems to me you know the answer:

1)  Photographers use several criteria when they choose retouching, and one of the top criteria they use is price.  Maybe the cheaper guys aren't as good as you (I wouldn't know), but clearly they are good enough.

2)  Photography, modeling, photoediting -- these are all competitive businesses, and the local guys who a) can do a decent job, and b) are the cheapest will pretty much always get the job.

3)  Focus your business on the photographers willing to pay your rates.  It doesn't matter if you lose the jobs from the guys who can't afford you.


But in general, you can't just raise your rates & expect no consequences.  If you want to charge more, improve your clientele first.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
But in general, you can't just raise your rates & expect no consequences.  If you want to charge more, improve your clientele first.

Haha very very good point.  It's just easier said than done

Paul Snyder wrote:
Does anyone have any advice on this?

So right now you've found something that I guess works, and has got you busy, at a lower price point. This isn't bad, and can be the normal progression for a business. From here, IMO, you're going to have a few options.

Keep the same rates or little higher rates for existing clients, and raise them a little for others. This will allow you to keep some cash flow while you're looking for new clients, and keep some old clients if they have been loyal to you.

Raise rates across the board, drop current clients, and focus on new work. Clean slate, start fresh, but then there would usually be a pause between current and old clients.

Create different products at different price points. Full detailed retouch would be (out of the air) $50, more minor general work starting at $20.


If it were me I'd keep a few good clients, then go after some more business in markets I haven't touched yet - maybe in different areas if you're work is mostly local, or local if you're work is mostly the net. Dunno, something to figure out, it's a fun ride.


Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Looknsee Photography wrote:
But in general, you can't just raise your rates & expect no consequences.  If you want to charge more, improve your clientele first.

I disagree.

Raise rates first then go after new clients, or give a first month discount on new clients. I wouldn't go into it with cheaper prices, then start raising them after you've found "better" clients.

Can't put the cart before the horse.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Keep the same rates or little higher rates for existing clients, and raise them a little for others. This will allow you to keep some cash flow while you're looking for new clients, and keep some old clients if they have been loyal to you.

I think this is more or less what I'm going to do.  I do like a few of the clients I have, and raising rates up in a major way will run them off (and I don't want to lose them until I have a few more higher level clients).

Looknsee Photography wrote:
But in general, you can't just raise your rates & expect no consequences.  If you want to charge more, improve your clientele first.

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
I disagree.

Raise rates first then go after new clients, or give a first month discount on new clients. I wouldn't go into it with cheaper prices, then start raising them after you've found "better" clients.

Can't put the cart before the horse.

Not to quibble (okay, yes, to quibble), I think we are talking about the same thing:

I listed the objective:  "If you want to charge more, improve your clientele first".

You suggested the strategy for achieving that objective:  "Raise rates first then go after new clients...".

Your strategy hopefully accomplishes my objective.  Same thing.


My caveat is that success will be determined by several factors, including the local supply & demand of retouchers.  If there are local retouchers capable of doing an "acceptable" job, the cheaper one will get the job.