Good Egg Productions wrote:
Wouldn't it be obvious that your rates are too high?

Perhaps if you had a "per hour" option, people might bite for a smaller entry price.


I do art nudes. It takes about an hour, MAYBE two to do all three concepts I'd do. Why would I need to hire you for a full day at $600 for that?

The answer is, I don't.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind.

Augustine York wrote:
Well you say here that you are flexible in your rates, but your profile says that are not negotiable.

From my experience, quoting rates based on an 8+ hour day is not realistic. Most are looking to shoot 2-4 hours.

People don't want to shell out $600 for implied nudes... why would they? Even at an 8 hour day that's still $75 per HOUR... I don't know what your area is like, but I do full nudes for that amount and sometimes even less, and I generally quote starting at 2 hours. And I don't ask for any sort of deposit either. The result is much more palatable number for most.

Look at it from the photographers perspective...

Model A it 5'2,  and doesn't shoot nudes. You can hire her for implied nudes for a full day of shooting (which you probably don't need) for $600 + deposit. According to her profile that number is non negotiable.

Model B is 5'2, and shoots full nudes. You can hire her full nudes for $40-$75/hr with a two hour minimum, no deposit. These numbers are also negotiable.

Most are going to choose the second model.

Thanks, I noted that and changed to an hourly basis concerning implied/art/nudes

Thanks much

Augustine York wrote:
Look at it from the photographers perspective...

Model A it 5'2,  and doesn't shoot nudes. You can hire her for implied nudes for a full day of shooting (which you probably don't need) for $600 + deposit. According to her profile that number is non negotiable.

Model B is 5'2, and shoots full nudes. You can hire her full nudes for $40-$75/hr with a two hour minimum, no deposit. These numbers are also negotiable.

Most are going to choose the second model.

this is it

MainePaintah wrote:
Just speaking for myself, as an artist who paints fine art nudes.

The column under you avatar photo says you do "nudes" and it says you put the "art" category up.

I did not see any photos that resembled art nude, so if I had come across your port, I would have gone through it pretty fast and not even considered hiring you.

I know this might be a small genre for you to be doing, but your port and many, many other llamas' port I have seen, list all the categories of genre that they will do, but never have any photos that show me, or other photographers, what they are capable of.

It is like when a llama says she llamas nude and talks about it in her profile, but there is not one photo in her port that show me that she can llama fine art nudes (and I am not talking about just being paid to pose naked).

Hopes this helped.

Thanks for that. Reason being is that my last art/nude project was over a year ago and my porfolio has ovbiously changed since. I also have some implied images yet to be posted as they are pending for publication.

If someone wanted to fully go through my portfolio, they would find artistic images on my website, facebook, also under MM credits from a specific artist that I have done art/implied for in past.

Thanks for the input, Maine

Robert Jewett wrote:
Your rates are high for a 28 YO 5'2" model.  None of my clients would approve that when I can get an 18YO who's 5'9".  Not that you aren't beautiful, it's just that when searching for a model, you are part of a demographic often "sorted out" of consideration.

Vogue pays $150 for a six page spread to the model.  Ford Models in Phoenix Get about that for a runway show (including makeup time, etc.).

Just points of reference.

Paid work does not usually come from this site.  For me, as a photographer, it comes from clients.  Agencies get you access to clients.  Have you checked with them?

+1

Robert Jewett wrote:
Your rates are high for a 28 YO 5'2" llama.  None of my clients would approve that when I can get an 18YO who's 5'9".  Not that you aren't beautiful, it's just that when searching for a llama, you are part of a demographic often "sorted out" of consideration.

Vogue pays $150 for a six page spread to the llama.  Ford llamas in Phoenix Get about that for a runway show (including makeup time, etc.).

Just points of reference.

Paid work does not usually come from this site.  For me, as a photographer, it comes from clients.  Agencies get you access to clients.  Have you checked with them?

She's not going to get booked by Vogue or Ford llamas at 5'2" and her age though. So what they would pay is a bit irrelevant. Someone like Vogue doesn't have to pay a lot, because what llama doesn't want to be in Vogue?

The going rate that I see for freelance nude llamas is about $100/hour, for non-adult work (glamour, art nudes). That doesn't mean that the OP will get that much. But that's the typical full rate the llamas I know quote. Most will negotiate if they like the photographers work and think they might get some good images out of it.

RBM Photo wrote:
I'll join the others in suggesting "what you are doing wrong" is thinking there is a large market for paid work in your genre for non-agency models.

There is definitely a market for models who do art nudes, depending on where you are. To make it work likely means traveling a lot, and you have to be someone people are willing to pay.

Robert Jewett wrote:
Your rates are high for a 28 YO 5'2" model.  None of my clients would approve that when I can get an 18YO who's 5'9".  Not that you aren't beautiful, it's just that when searching for a model, you are part of a demographic often "sorted out" of consideration.

Vogue pays $150 for a six page spread to the model.  Ford Models in Phoenix Get about that for a runway show (including makeup time, etc.).

Just points of reference.

Paid work does not usually come from this site.  For me, as a photographer, it comes from clients.  Agencies get you access to clients.  Have you checked with them?

Thanks, Robert. I have sought agencies but none will take me on, being that I am a petite and also an older model (though I do have a "young" face)...

As freelance it is most difficult... and my rates are what I feel is best, given the cost I put into past shoots and further experience I have had most recently ($75 max travel, $100 towards props, wardrobe, makeup/hair products *if I have to do it all myself*) .... in the end, you see, I may make it well on shoot A; as they have a hired stylist or two, but shoot B; everyone flaked/got sick/dog ate their makeup brush and I had to muster up doing/providing my own hair/face, clothing for an already set shoot

Quite a delima....gotta think on this further for sure

Beautifully Broke wrote:

Thanks, Robert. I have sought agencies but none will take me on, being that I am a petite and also an older model (though I do have a "young" face)...

As freelance it is most difficult... and my rates are what I feel is best, given the cost I put into past shoots and further experience I have had most recently ($75 max travel, $100 towards props, wardrobe, makeup/hair products *if I have to do it all myself*) .... in the end, you see, I may make it well on shoot A; as they have a hired stylist or two, but shoot B; everyone flaked/got sick/dog ate their makeup brush and I had to muster up doing/providing my own hair/face, clothing for an already set shoot

Quite a delima....gotta think on this further for sure

I'm not an expert, but do you really need all that stuff if you were to focus on artsy stuff and artsy nudes?
with your age and height, focussing on fashion and editorial is probably not the best marketingmove

Rich Burroughs wrote:
It's hard to answer this without giving a critique. But as other people have mentioned, you need to have an hourly rate or rates. Then offer a day rate that's a slight discount on 8 hours and maybe a half day rate that's a discount on 4. I rarely shoot more than 2 or 3 hours and I would not want to pay someone for 8. I've also almost never paid for travel expenses. If someone says they are available to shoot here, then they're available.

I don't think that the fact that you're petite has to do much with anything, except that you're not likely to get mainstream fashion work or any kind of runway work. For nude and alternative work it matters much less, though. I really don't care too much how tall a nude model is, I do care what their proportions are like.

Also you give people up to 90 days to pay? What? That may be how it works for models booking through agencies, but as a freelancer you should be getting paid (hopefully in cash) at the shoot. Dolla dolla bill y'all.

Maybe do a critique thread too. I'd like to give you feedback about your port but it's not allowed here.

See, Rich, this is another query...I thought "well, I struggle financially, so maybe if I gave a fellow artist some leeway and streach, the cost would not be so bad?"

And yes, many have stated an hourly rate is the way to go. In my experience however, I end up taking an entire day off work to shoot because the MUA takes up to 4hrs on makeup and hair, wardrobe gets there late, ect...
Am I being prude in trying to recover a days wages lost, plus half the transportation cost (most shoots are an hour-2 hrs away from my residence)...

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
Like most have said, your rates are too high.
I'm barely 5', but I do full nudes and a two hour minimum, not eight. Plus I work with people to find a rate that works for both of us if my initially quoted numbers do not work.
I also have half and full day rates if that's what the photographer needs or wants, but again those numbers are also on a sliding scale to find a good compromise.

I have been taking mainly only paid work and have found plenty of it despite my height. You just need to adjust your rates and be more flexible with it.

Thanks Jolly

Robert Jewett wrote:
Your rates are high for a 28 YO 5'2" model.  None of my clients would approve that when I can get an 18YO who's 5'9".  Not that you aren't beautiful, it's just that when searching for a model, you are part of a demographic often "sorted out" of consideration.

Vogue pays $150 for a six page spread to the model.  Ford Models in Phoenix Get about that for a runway show (including makeup time, etc.).

Just points of reference.

Paid work does not usually come from this site.  For me, as a photographer, it comes from clients.  Agencies get you access to clients.  Have you checked with them?

She isn't an agency model so what do their rates matter to us who will never have to deal with an agency? Note her measurements and you'll find that even mentioning an agency would be entirely useless here.

As a side note- All of my paid work has come from this site, so you're being a bit broad in your assumption. She can get paid work through MM, it's all a matter of compromise and finding out what he average rates are for FREELANCE models in her area.

Beautifully Broke wrote:
Quite a delima....gotta think on this further for sure

You have been given some great insights here. 

Ultimately it comes down to basic economics.  If how much you think your modeling (and all the "extra") is worth does not equal or fall below what someone is willing to pay, you are not going to get paid, and if that happens and you want to get paid, you need to adjust.

Beautifully Broke wrote:
Thanks, Robert. I have sought agencies but none will take me on, being that I am a petite and also an older model (though I do have a "young" face)...

As freelance it is most difficult... and my rates are what I feel is best, given the cost I put into past shoots and further experience I have had most recently ($75 max travel, $100 towards props, wardrobe, makeup/hair products *if I have to do it all myself*) .... in the end, you see, I may make it well on shoot A; as they have a hired stylist or two, but shoot B; everyone flaked/got sick/dog ate their makeup brush and I had to muster up doing/providing my own hair/face, clothing for an already set shoot

Quite a delima....gotta think on this further for sure

I totally understand.

But...people are always reminding new photographers that no-one cares how much they've invested in camera gear (the model just wants great picture after all)...and I wonder if the same is true for models?

At the end of the day, I wouldn't look over your portfolio and say, "She has had a few not work out, I'll pay her more."  For me, paid work is simple: What look does the client need, and what's their budget?  And, I'll get the freshest face I can get for that dollar amount with the most experience they can afford.  Those two are usually mutually exclusive, though.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:
She isn't an agency llama so what do their rates matter to us who will never have to deal with an agency? Note her measurements and you'll find that even mentioning an agency would be entirely useless here.

1

Two different worlds....  what someone pays for freelance/art/etc is not at all what a commercial or fashion client might pay; but to make any money, you do have to be marketable in your genre....

RBM Photo wrote:
I'll join the others in suggesting "what you are doing wrong" is thinking there is a large market for paid work in your genre for non-agency models.

You have an excellent portfolio, you have tear sheets, you've shot with Philipe, you've done a fantastic job! But, maybe you've hit the wall and gone as far as you can go with it. That happens.

Perhaps, RBM. And I do it for the love and passion I have for the craft but...to be blut, I eat too and I'd like to make even a little bit more than just the admiration and pride of being in a magazine or shooting with so-and-so...

I will consider this as well.

Thanks

Rich Burroughs wrote:

She's not going to get booked by Vogue or Ford Models at 5'2" and her age though. So what they would pay is a bit irrelevant. Someone like Vogue doesn't have to pay a lot, because what model doesn't want to be in Vogue?

The going rate that I see for freelance nude models is about $100/hour, for non-adult work (glamour, art nudes). That doesn't mean that the OP will get that much. But that's the typical full rate the models I know quote. Most will negotiate if they like the photographers work and think they might get some good images out of it.

Thanks for that, Rich. I will make sure I never work for Vogue or Ford since Im too short and too old.
And honestly, I don't want to sell myself short and do implied/art/nudes only...I want to always keep my eyes open and my horizons broadened with the idea that a petite CAN do beauty, fashion, creative pieces...I like to be well rounded and knowledgeable in all aspects. Never placed in a box.

No offence to any other artists, but I think we far too often suceed to implied/nudes cause that does "pay the bills" and we give into this "too short, too old" concept...I know I am worthy of doing fashion and beauty just as much! But...thats my own opinion

Anna Adrielle wrote:

I'm not an expert, but do you really need all that stuff if you were to focus on artsy stuff and artsy nudes?
with your age and height, focussing on fashion and editorial is probably not the best marketingmove

Anna,
If I focused on art or costume/character, yes. But artistic nudes? no.

I am open to either genre but I won't shut the door on fashion, couture or casual either...nor will I quit doing beauty, as parts/beauty modeling is also lucrative for petites (your face doesnt have to say that your 5'2" or 5'9" and if I did, say, a nail salon ad...my hands don't reflect my height either)...

Thanks!

model emily  wrote:

You have been given some great insights here. 

Ultimately it comes down to basic economics.  If how much you think your modeling (and all the "extra") is worth does not equal or fall below what someone is willing to pay, you are not going to get paid, and if that happens and you want to get paid, you need to adjust.

Thanks, Emily. I will keep that in mind and see what may arrise, or fall in the coming weeks and then see if I need to adjust a bit.

Jolly Rauncher wrote:

She isn't an agency model so what do their rates matter to us who will never have to deal with an agency? Note her measurements and you'll find that even mentioning an agency would be entirely useless here.

As a side note- All of my paid work has come from this site, so you're being a bit broad in your assumption. She can get paid work through MM, it's all a matter of compromise and finding out what he average rates are for FREELANCE models in her area.

Thanks, Jolly!

Beautifully Broke wrote:

Perhaps, RBM. And I do it for the love and passion I have for the craft but...to be blut, I eat too and I'd like to make even a little bit more than just the admiration and pride of being in a magazine or shooting with so-and-so...

I will consider this as well.

Thanks

I was just focusing on the kind of commercial/fashion/editorial work you have displayed in your portfolio. Art nudes is a different market entirely, and you might find more success if you choose to pursue that direction.

Robert Jewett wrote:

I totally understand.

But...people are always reminding new photographers that no-one cares how much they've invested in camera gear (the model just wants great picture after all)...and I wonder if the same is true for models?

At the end of the day, I wouldn't look over your portfolio and say, "She has had a few not work out, I'll pay her more."  For me, paid work is simple: What look does the client need, and what's their budget?  And, I'll get the freshest face I can get for that dollar amount with the most experience they can afford.  Those two are usually mutually exclusive, though.

Maybe the same does go for models as well and though we spend, say $200 on preperation, the photographer or artist frankly doesn't care...all they see on  their end is that they paid a rate ($150, $300, $75 per hr)...its like a paycheck I guess...my boss doesn't hand me my check on Friday and say "Okay, Melodye, this check is for your cell phone bill, fuel, 50 to savings, groceries"...
He/she doesn't care but the fact that I do my job, do it well and I come back in on Monday.

Beautifully Broke wrote:

Anna,
If I focused on art or costume/character, yes. But artistic nudes? no.

I am open to either genre but I won't shut the door on fashion, couture or casual either...nor will I quit doing beauty, as parts/beauty modeling is also lucrative for petites (your face doesnt have to say that your 5'2" or 5'9" and if I did, say, a nail salon ad...my hands don't reflect my height either)...

Thanks!

are you getting a lot of paid freelance work for couture, fashion and beauty here?

Beautifully Broke wrote:

I want to always keep my eyes open and my horizons broadened with the idea that a petite CAN do beauty, fashion, creative pieces...I like to be well rounded and knowledgeable in all aspects. Never placed in a box.

No offence to any other artists, but I think we far too often suceed to implied/nudes cause that does "pay the bills" and we give into this "too short, too old" concept...I know I am worthy of doing fashion and beauty just as much! But...thats my own opinion

Please hear this kindly, because that is how I intend it...but that may not come across in written form.

You asked a question about your situation.  We answered it based on the parameters of who you are.
We also answered it based on the parameters set by the industry. 
Those two things are facts.

No-one is trying to kill your dream, but at the same time, your dreams are not going to change the industry.  No matter how much you want petite to be broadly accepted in the industry it is not.  It wont be in our lifetimes.

You already have your answer by the amount of work you are booking. 

Adapt to the industry or get out of the modeling industry.  The industry does not owe you work.

model emily  wrote:

+1

Two different worlds....  what someone pays for freelance/art/etc is not at all what a commercial or fashion client might pay; but to make any money, you do have to be marketable in your genre....

Quite true, Emily. And to be in multipule markets as I am, perhaps there isn't a true happy medium for them, concerning fees/rates/paid assignments.

Robert Jewett wrote:
Your rates are high for a 28 YO 5'2" model.  None of my clients would approve that when I can get an 18YO who's 5'9".  Not that you aren't beautiful, it's just that when searching for a model, you are part of a demographic often "sorted out" of consideration.

Vogue pays $150 for a six page spread to the model.  Ford Models in Phoenix Get about that for a runway show (including makeup time, etc.).

Just points of reference.

Paid work does not usually come from this site.  For me, as a photographer, it comes from clients.  Agencies get you access to clients.  Have you checked with them?

+1. Being that vast majority of editorial work is no to low budget, I would say that your rate on editorial is to high. Also remember that should it be true editorial work with publication, it is generally not that hard for a photographer to get an agency to send them models in return for tears.

RBM Photo wrote:

I was just focusing on the kind of commercial/fashion/editorial work you have displayed in your portfolio. Art nudes is a different market entirely, and you might find more success if you choose to pursue that direction.

A lot to consider, RBM...thanks

Anna Adrielle wrote:

are you getting a lot of paid freelance work for couture, fashion and beauty here?

I have had one paid freelance fashion/beauty session and like I said, they come and go Im sure, but I don't want to box myself into artistic/nudes/implied or costume/creative only either...