Garry k wrote:
Most of my photography is trade with local fashion models and they are a pretty conservative bunch ( on the whole )

So on occassion i like to shoot nudes with one of those top MM models who visit my city

I will acknowledge that I am not a very good photographer in this genre- so I dont mind paying a bit of coin for the privililege of learning to improve ( however some of the models i have shot  have offered me trade - which i have accepted )

I have so far worked with a handful of such travelling models ( 6 or 7 )  , each one pleasant , skilled and professional - and the shoots have gone well

However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

its not a bait and switch, its a pipe dream

a lot of models get pigeonholed into nude work

Michael McGowan wrote:
I've never had anything remotely like that happen. Traveling models I've booked have done exactly what they advertised, some going well beyond their "normal," including bondage or fetish work.

So, my experience is that these models have under-sold what they're willing to do if the situation is right. A few "fashion" or "commercial" ladies have done anonymous figure studies or implied nudes, which they don't advertise.

A few ask for other shots in addition to the paid set, but that's usually no problem. It's just part of negotiations.

Maybe you just need to be more specific, letting them know from the get-go that you're paying for the reasons you noted.

Oh I am pretty specific with models for all the shoots i do ...I have long since learned that its best to be on the same page before the shoot regarding the type of shoot it will be

And I am not proposing to them anything more than what is in my port or theirs

but I am not hearing back from them anything to do with the concept being outside of their comfort zone

they just start talking about doing a fashion shoot

which of course i would be fine with too( cus i do enough of them ) -but  on  trade basis

Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

Well - I'm not sure why they are agreeing to shoot terms/rates and then saying "Sorry, no nudes!" -- or, are you saying they go along with it, they're just mentioning to you that it's not their focus?

I agree with the comment that many models get pigeon-holded.  Once they start doing nude work, many models find it difficult to find someone who wants to shoot them in any other style; it can become frustrating, being seen as a "nude model" instead of just "model" -- but it's ultimately in the model's hands how she advertises herself and the assignments she agrees to do.

Advertising that you do nude work when you don't really want to do it requires some consideration if its fair to continue advertising for that genre, or modeling in that genre at all.  For some, doing nude work can become a "pays the bills" sort of thing, even if the model doesn't personally like shooting that kind of work.    When it hit that point for me, I decided it was time to re-evaluate.

Some models find it effective having two profiles - one for nude work, one for other non-nude work -- others do nude work selectively and don't advertise it to prevent this from happening.

JQuest wrote:
I've never run into that, and I shoot traveling models almost exclusively now-a-days as they actually show up.

Same here.  I have never had a model tell me she wanted to do something other than what was agreed upon.  I also seem to shoot mostly with models from out of town as they almost always show up in contrast to local models that frequently flake.

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I can sympathize with the models -- many feel frustrated that the only paid work they can get is for posing nude.  Indeed, once most pose nude, photographers don't want them to pose any other way.  That must be disappointing for many models.

Still -- it's not a big deal for me.  There's nothing wrong with a photographer being willing to pay for nudes but not for clothed.  If you don't want to pay for a clothed shoot, politely decline as quickly as possible, then move on in your search for a nude model.

Sorry, but I have no real sympathy here.  If a model has runway or fashion stats and puts themselves in the right market and works their butt off, they should be paid for the work they want.

If a person is well outside of those stats and has people willing to pay them 10 to 20x more per hour than almost anyone with their level of education, training and experience, they should either take the money and be grateful, or go get another job.

Garry k wrote:

Oh I am pretty specific with models for all the shoots i do ...I have long since learned that its best to be on the same page before the shoot regarding the type of shoot it will be

And I am not proposing to them anything more than what is in my port or theirs

but I am not hearing back from them anything to do with the concept being outside of their comfort zone

they just start talking about doing a fashion shoot

which of course i would be fine with too( cus i do enough of them ) -but  on  trade basis

Then tell them that.
You will gladly pay them their rate for the nude work you desire, and will do trade of fashion work that they want.
Either that or quote them your fashion rate and ask if they would be willing to trade for a 1/2 fashion 1/2 nude shoot.

Garry k wrote:
However over the past year or so I have been contacted by /or have contacted 3 travelling  models visiting my area , they have offered their "rates " for the type of shoot I am seeking , i have agreed to the rates - and instead in  response I have recieved messages stating that they really are trying to get away from doing nude work but they will do a fashion shoot for the same rate

Sounds like a great way to shoot them as a TF* assignment.

"If you're willing to shoot what I need for my port, I'm more than willing to help you out shooting what you need."

Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Sorry, but I have no real sympathy here.  If a model has runway or fashion stats and puts themselves in the right market and works their butt off, they should be paid for the work they want.

actually where i live there is a glut of agency fashion models with the "right stats " and not enough local work ...thus its fairly easy for capable photographers to shoot on a trade basis

Garry k wrote:

actually where i live there is a glut of agency fashion models with the "right stats " and not enough local work ...thus its fairly easy for capable photographers to shoot on a trade basis

My point was that ALL models have a right to get paid, but that those who don't have agency or fashion stats have to work in genres where they represent a value.

If a short model shows up in Vancouver where agency models are doing fashion TF, and expect nude rates for fashion, they are either delusional or trying to run a game on a gullible hobbyist.

Lifestyle_Images wrote:

My point was that ALL models have a right to get paid, but that those who don't have agency or fashion stats have to work in genres where they represent a value.

Isn't that like saying ALL photographers have the right to be paid ?

Garry k wrote:

Isn't that like saying ALL photographers have the right to be paid ?

Yep.  As in the rest of life, all according to what they bring to the table.  Some make big dollars, some make trade, but yes, we and they should all get "paid" something.

Lifestyle_Images wrote:

Yep.  As in the rest of life, all according to what they bring to the table.  Some make big dollars, some make trade, but yes, we and they should all get "paid" something.

so hypothetically speaking ...

the photographers pays the model $100 an hr , and the model pays the photographer $100 an hour and they both leave the shoot feeling satisfied cus they both got "paid " ?

Garry k wrote:
so hypothetically speaking ...

the photographers pays the model $100 an hr , and the model pays the photographer $100 an hour and they both leave the shoot feeling satisfied cus they both got "paid " ?

No, if, based on the competition in a given area, a model and a photographer both routinely charge and get paid $100/hr. then if their "value" in that market is $100/hr.  If they work with each other, they still bring that value to the table, and therefore represent an equitable trade.

If I can only deliver photos worth $50/hr and the model is a $100/hr person, then I need to give her twice as much time as she does to be "usual and customary."

In the above, I would see me paying $50/hr to be a fair arrangement.

ETA:  Would you feel better if I used the word "compensated" rather than "paid?"

JQuest wrote:
I've never run into that, and I shoot traveling models almost exclusively now-a-days as they actually show up.

+1

Garry k wrote:
Travelling Models "Bait and Switch "

...

master baiting

Michael McGowan wrote:
I've never had anything remotely like that happen. Traveling models I've booked have done exactly what they advertised, some going well beyond their "normal," including bondage or fetish work.

So, my experience is that these models have under-sold what they're willing to do if the situation is right. A few "fashion" or "commercial" ladies have done anonymous figure studies or implied nudes, which they don't advertise.

A few ask for other shots in addition to the paid set, but that's usually no problem. It's just part of negotiations.

Maybe you just need to be more specific, letting them know from the get-go that you're paying for the reasons you noted.

I've shot with plenty of traveling models.  Can't say that I've ever had the problem the OP mentions either.

Garry k wrote:
I am starting to wonder if this is a common practice or if it is just my experience

Not my experience at all. The traveling models with whom I've worked, both cash and trade, have done exactly what we agreed to beforehand, and done so splendidly with results that pleased us both.

S W I N S K E Y wrote:
my experience with traveling nude models goes approximately like this:

model: "i really love your work with so and so, i would really like to work with you while i'm in town."
me: (thinking to myself, this is not the type of model i would typically offer trade work to, but they do have a name and recognition in the art community) ok sure, i'd be down for shooting.
model: " ok, i have these days available"
me: "cool"
model: "oh yeah, i'm not doing trade shoots, so here are my rates" or "do you have any budget to pay me, becasae i cant come to your town unless you pay me"

all the while i know they are trading with other locals, because those guys have already told me about it..

with exception of one model out of seven, this is how it went down.
one had the courtesy to be upfront about looking for paid work.

This rings true as well.

The whole "I need to be paid and everyone pays me, no exceptions", but I know differently.

Nice to know I'm not alone in this Doug. I have always admired your work, so it's nice to know it's not just a me thing. 

Looknsee Photography wrote:
I can sympathize with the models -- many feel frustrated that the only paid work they can get is for posing nude.  Indeed, once most pose nude, photographers don't want them to pose any other way.  That must be disappointing for many models.

With what, exactly, are you sympathizing? Unless a model is doing something extraordinary, nude/fetish/porn is the only consistent path to revenue for a traveling model. Anyone getting into that lifestyle without realizing that from the get-go is hopelessly optimistic.

Buyer's remorse sucks.

dave phoenix wrote:
i once worked with a model who wanted to do some shots on polaroid film, and i said i would do them in exchange for a couple hours of nudes. so we shoot the polaroids, then she says she's decided she doesn't want to do the nudes, so i say "okay, have a nice day - there's the door."

she goes, "well, can i have those polaroids?"
no, of course not.

"can you scan them and send me copies?"
no, of course not.

some models fail to understand the idea of a trade agreement, i guess, and feel like they should get everything they want, and don't mind lying.

If she's on MM, she probably has you listed on her profile page as a Photographer to not work with.

Ed Woodson Photography wrote:
If she's on MM, she probably has you listed on her profile page as a Photographer to not work with.

That's fine by me, I'm not exactly in a position where I'm struggling to find models who want to work with me.