BTHPhoto wrote:
... but have a couple secret passworded folders and most of your "credited photos" are erotic nudes, implied(?) masturbation, and spread shots, how do you expect photographers to interpret that?  Should we take you at your word and assume you don't do nudes, or contact you for the type of work we see on line?

That sentence doesn't work, if you take them at their work then you are not really assuming anything. The choice is their to check or not check the nude box, just move on to one who is actually looking for that type of work.

Personally I just skip profiles with password protected folders...

BTHPhoto wrote:
... but have a couple secret passworded folders and most of your "credited photos" are erotic nudes, implied(?) masturbation, and spread shots, how do you expect photographers to interpret that?  Should we take you at your word and assume you don't do nudes, or contact you for the type of work we see on line?

Make your offer, but don't get offended if they say no.   Just because they did them at one point doesn't mean they still do.

FredSugar wrote:

Make your offer, but don't get offended if they say no.   Just because they did them at one point doesn't mean they still do.

I never get offended when someone says no, regardless of the circumstances.  It's more usual that they get offended when asked to do the type of work they have on line.  And the "used to but don't any more" argument doesn't hold much water.  It's common for the nude work to be fresh material in photographers' portfolios.

Ivan Galaviz - Photo wrote:
It means "Not with you" unless I  want to...

exactly.

Ivan Galaviz - Photo wrote:
It means "Not with you" unless I  want to...

Which doesn't answer my question at all.  Will they be offended if I ask?  Or do they expect that, by checking "no," they won't get asked.

BTHPhoto wrote:

Which doesn't answer my question at all.  Will they be offended if I ask?  Or do they expect that, by checking "no," they won't get asked.

If you ask nicely, no one will be offended. This seems like a silly question.

BTHPhoto wrote:
Which doesn't answer my question at all.  Will they be offended if I ask?  Or do they expect that, by checking "no," they won't get asked.

some do get offended, some don't.

if they get offended, don't work with them, problem solved.

I've found that professional, respectful communications go a long way, even if the answer is no.   If they can't deal with that, they are not going to be someone you want to work with.

Mizz Amanda Marie wrote:
If you ask nicely, no one will be offended. This seems like a silly question.

Unfortunately, that's not true.

T-D-L wrote:
Jeezus....waaaayyyyy too much overthinking this stuff on this site.

Model says "No" to "Nudes" on profile.  But, she has nudes in portfolio.  =  "I shoot nudes, but I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry or shitty photographer on MM hitting me up 28483x a day to show my tits for TF."  IF your work is good enough, she'll shoot nudes with you.  Otherwise she "doesn't shoot nudes".  Just ask and you'll find out what she thinks of you and your work.

Or you'll get a self-righteous lecture about how "no means no" and you're a slimy creep for even asking. 

I know this topic has come up over and over, and the standard white-knight response is "she shoots nudes, just not with you," or "if you were good enough she wouldn't be offended," but frankly that's horse shit.  People can choose not to have credited photos displayed, and they can choose not to have secret passworded folders, and they can choose not to present contradictory information on-line.  People can make up all the excuses they want to defend them, but when you deliberately send mixed messages then get offended by people asking what you really meant, the problem is not with the message receiver, it's with the message sender.

Kindergarten 101: tell the truth and people will trust you; tell blatant lies and people will think you're a liar.

BTHPhoto wrote:

Which doesn't answer my question at all.  Will they be offended if I ask?  Or do they expect that, by checking "no," they won't get asked.

A) they don't do nudes and are not offended - you don't work with them
B) they don't do nudes and are offended - you don't work with them

Same thing.

T-D-L wrote:
Jeezus....waaaayyyyy too much overthinking this stuff on this site.

Model says "No" to "Nudes" on profile.  But, she has nudes in portfolio.  =  "I shoot nudes, but I don't want every Tom, Dick, and Harry or shitty photographer on MM hitting me up 28483x a day to show my tits for TF."  IF your work is good enough, she'll shoot nudes with you.  Otherwise she "doesn't shoot nudes".  Just ask and you'll find out what she thinks of you and your work.

^^^ this is 100% right.

As for your comments in response to this... why are you so offended that this model gets butt hurt at you? Do you know her in real life? Is this the end of a beautiful friendship. I just don't get how it hurts you so much there are bitches and assholes in every industry just don't respond delete the message and move along.

Scarlett de la Calle wrote:

^^^ this is 100% right.

As for your comments in response to this... why are you so offended that this model gets butt hurt at you? Do you know her in real life? Is this the end of a beautiful friendship. I just don't get how it hurts you so much there are bitches and assholes in every industry just don't respond delete the message and move along.

You're missing the point entirely.  I don't care if someone is a bitch or an asshole.  I care that people are hypocritical and dishonest.  Call it a personality trait or a moral code or an obsession or a mental illness - truth matters, and blatant dishonesty disrupts the balance of my universe.  It distresses me that people with the morals of politicians are a part of something I'm passionate about.

BTHPhoto wrote:
Or you'll get a self-righteous lecture about how "no means no" and you're a slimy creep for even asking. 

I know this topic has come up over and over, and the standard white-knight response is "she shoots nudes, just not with you," or "if you were good enough she wouldn't be offended," but frankly that's horse shit.  People can choose not to have credited photos displayed, and they can choose not to have secret passworded folders, and they can choose not to present contradictory information on-line.  People can make up all the excuses they want to defend them, but when you deliberately send mixed messages then get offended by people asking what you really meant, the problem is not with the message receiver, it's with the message sender.

I dunno if this is another "standard white-knight" response, but in my experience I've never had any self-righteous lectures when I've asked.  It's either "Sure" or "No, sorry I don't" or something along those lines.  Truth be told, if you are good enough she won't be offended, she'll just tell you that's not something she's into and you move on. 

I'd say that:

A) Harping on the forums worrying about silly stuff like who will or won't shoot nudes never helps you.

B) If you're getting called a slimey creep or getting lectured along with the "no" then either your work is making them feel that way, or your approach makes them feel that way...or both.

C) Again, I've talked to plenty of models about this and coincidentally just wrapped a shoot 2 hours ago with a model and we were talking about MM and this very subject considering I had just shot her topless despite her profile saying no to nudes.  Her thoughts on the subject were: She does it to keep the creepers from finding her and asking her to shoot for free, then getting mad when she says no despite having topless photos with others.  When the "Yes" box was checked it was an open invitation for all the shitty photographers to bug her....now that "No" is selected it doesn't stop it completely, but it has cut it down.

What would you rather the model do?  And I'm assuming this all stems from you asking a model to shoot nudes and getting a not so welcome response (based on your replies so far):  Would you rather she say "Yes" to nudes, and then when you msg her she still says no and calls you a creep....or would you rather she say "No" to nudes, and then when you msg her she says no and calls you a creep?  In case you hadn't noticed there's really no difference in the answer....she's not interested in working with you....so the point is, if she's got nudes, whether she openly admits/advertises it or not it's pointless....because at the end of the day she's not shooting them with you.

Mizz Amanda Marie wrote:
Ask. The worst that can happen is a no. Models may shoot nudes but not want to shoot them with everyone.

/thread

BTHPhoto wrote:

You're missing the point entirely.  I don't care if someone is a bitch or an asshole.  I care that people are hypocritical and dishonest.  Call it a personality trait or a moral code or an obsession or a mental illness - truth matters, and blatant dishonesty disrupts the balance of my universe.  It distresses me that people with the morals of politicians are a part of something I'm passionate about.

Not missing the point but there is a lot I hate and find misleading about this industry too. I however choose to turn my back on those aspects, ignore them and move on because they are not worth my time.

Mizz Amanda Marie wrote:
If you ask nicely, no one will be offended. This seems like a silly question.

No, there are uptight people. They get all pissy even for being asked TF. I have had a few of those myself, I thought I hit them on their menstrual mood swing.

BTHPhoto wrote:

You're missing the point entirely.  I don't care if someone is a bitch or an asshole.  I care that people are hypocritical and dishonest.  Call it a personality trait or a moral code or an obsession or a mental illness - truth matters, and blatant dishonesty disrupts the balance of my universe.  It distresses me that people with the morals of politicians are a part of something I'm passionate about.

You're really reaching here....it's not dishonest.  You said so yourself: the private galleries, the credited photos, the nudes in their portfolio...they obviously shoot nudes and they aren't proactively attempting to hide that fact.  They just don't shoot them with everyone.  Geez, I don't know why everyone's ego is so ridiculously big on MM that they don't understand that modeling nude is usually kindof a big deal for a woman...they don't want to drop their panties for anyone who buys a digital rebel.  There has to be a level of trust there and a big part of that is based on both the quality of your work (despite what everyone wants to think, they're not the most amazing photographer ever) and your personality.  You're trying to paint the models in this situation as "dishonest" and "hypocritical" when at the end of the day it's just wining about "she shoots noodz with him but not me :'("

T-D-L wrote:

I dunno if this is another "standard white-knight" response, but in my experience I've never had any self-righteous lectures when I've asked.  It's either "Sure" or "No, sorry I don't" or something along those lines.  Truth be told, if you are good enough she won't be offended, she'll just tell you that's not something she's into and you move on. 

I'd say that:

A) Harping on the forums worrying about silly stuff like who will or won't shoot nudes never helps you.

B) If you're getting called a slimey creep or getting lectured along with the "no" then either your work is making them feel that way, or your approach makes them feel that way...or both.

C) Again, I've talked to plenty of models about this and coincidentally just wrapped a shoot 2 hours ago with a model and we were talking about MM and this very subject considering I had just shot her topless despite her profile saying no to nudes.  Her thoughts on the subject were: She does it to keep the creepers from finding her and asking her to shoot for free, then getting mad when she says no despite having topless photos with others.  When the "Yes" box was checked it was an open invitation for all the shitty photographers to bug her....now that "No" is selected it doesn't stop it completely, but it has cut it down.

What would you rather the model do?  And I'm assuming this all stems from you asking a model to shoot nudes and getting a not so welcome response (based on your replies so far):  Would you rather she say "Yes" to nudes, and then when you msg her she still says no and calls you a creep....or would you rather she say "No" to nudes, and then when you msg her she says no and calls you a creep?  In case you hadn't noticed there's really no difference in the answer....she's not interested in working with you....so the point is, if she's got nudes, and she openly admits/advertises it or not it's pointless....because at the end of the day she's not shooting them with you.

Actually I gave up asking them a long time ago.  I'm not interested in dealing with dishonest people, no matter what their answer is.  Honestly, it just drives me nuts that people are blatantly hypocritical and dishonest, and people here accept and excuse it like it's rational. 

As for what I would rather the model do, that's pretty simple: either say no and mean it, or say yes and mean it.  That doesn't mean I expect that they'll shoot nudes with anyone who asks - they've always got a right to decline work with anyone for any reason - but if they have recent nude work displayed, and new nude work showing up regularly, then saying "no" is lying.  I would prefer that people not lie.  Pretty simple.

T-D-L wrote:
You're really reaching here....it's not dishonest.

You must define honesty differently than I do.

And your suggestion that anyone who wants them to tell the truth expects them to mean "yes" to every inquiry is disingenuous.  That's the kind of rationalized reasoning that makes dishonesty acceptable.  Saying "yes, I shoot nudes" does not mean "yes, I shoot nudes with everyone no matter what."  However saying "no, I don't shoot nudes" but having new nudes show up regularly on-line is dishonest, by any definition of honest that I've ever heard.

BTHPhoto wrote:
Actually I gave up asking them a long time ago.  I'm not interested in dealing with dishonest people, no matter what their answer is.  Honestly, it just drives me nuts that people are blatantly hypocritical and dishonest, and people here accept and excuse it like it's rational. 

As for what I would rather the model do, that's pretty simple: either say no and mean it, or say yes and mean it.  That doesn't mean I expect that they'll shoot nudes with anyone who asks - they've always got a right to decline work with anyone for any reason - but if they have recent nude work displayed, and new nude work showing up regularly, then saying "no" is lying.  I would prefer that people not lie.  Pretty simple.

I guess you and I are just different in our approach.  I could care less what someone says in their profile.  If your portfolio shows you wearing fur, then I think it's safe to ask if you're ok with fur.  If you're on all fours completely naked....then it's probably ok to ask about nudity.  Profiles are a bunch of bravado and filler material.  Hell, even if I don't see nudes in a model's portfolio and I think she's got the look for a concept that involves it: I'll still ask.  It's just a question, and in your case it's obvious she does so the question of "Do you shoot nudes?" is moot, the task now is to just sell her on your concept/work.  Maybe I've been lucky and have only run into professionals with a better disposition but even the ones who genuinely can't shoot nudes (ie. future teachers, political involvement, etc) have all been polite when declining.

BTHPhoto wrote:

You must define honesty differently than I do.

And your suggestion that anyone who wants them to tell the truth expects them to mean "yes" to every inquiry is disingenuous.  That's the kind of rationalized reasoning that makes dishonesty acceptable.  Saying "yes, I shoot nudes" does not mean "yes, I shoot nudes with everyone no matter what."  However saying "no, I don't shoot nudes" but having new nudes show up regularly on-line is dishonest, by any definition of honest that I've ever heard.

I think you forget where you are (ie. MM).  Ass and Titties run this place.  Just look at the forums, there isn't a day that goes by that we don't get a rant about nudity.  Talk to a couple models, they'll tell you how many requests for nudes they get, whether they say they do or not.  If you honestly think that it's better for a model to say "Yes" and have what amounts to an open invitation for the creepers then I don't know what to tell you.  MM made it worse when they allowed you to search by their answer to nudity.  Until the culture (or the admittance procedure) changes models are always going to try to find ways to be less accessible to the majority.

BTHPhoto wrote:
Actually I gave up asking them a long time ago.  I'm not interested in dealing with dishonest people, no matter what their answer is.  Honestly, it just drives me nuts that people are blatantly hypocritical and dishonest, and people here accept and excuse it like it's rational. 

As for what I would rather the model do, that's pretty simple: either say no and mean it, or say yes and mean it.  That doesn't mean I expect that they'll shoot nudes with anyone who asks - they've always got a right to decline work with anyone for any reason - but if they have recent nude work displayed, and new nude work showing up regularly, then saying "no" is lying.  I would prefer that people not lie.  Pretty simple.

Models have started changing what they say in response to so many photographers arguing with them when they posted YES to nudes, then turned down the nude job offers. It also became a way to only get 5 messages a day as opposed to 75 messages a day from photographers asking about nude shoots.

Saying "no nudes" is not a truth.
It is a lie that saves time.

I went beyond the lie, I took my entire portfolio down.
Does that mean I never model, no.
Does that mean I never model nude, no
If a random photographer asks me on the street, I am going to lie.
I am going to tell them "No, I don't model."
I tell this lie about 3x a month...

Yet I still have new nude modeling images on my hard drive once a month...
Funny how that works

BTHPhoto wrote:
Or you'll get a self-righteous lecture about how "no means no" and you're a slimy creep for even asking.

So if they get offended, who gives a damn?
Not me.
I ask politely and if they get all bent and twisted out of shape, that's their problem.

The ones that really amuse me are the ones that have something like  spread legged shots with just a slip of a bikini or lace knickers hiding some of their bits and other similar tacky, poorly done pics that make them look like porn stars and then when you contact them about a shoot that requires arty topless  poses, they come back spitting venom and wrath they they don't do that sort of work and why does everyone keep asking them?

Well you know what, you keep putting apples in your shop window and people are going to come in wanting to buy apples regardless of the fact you only sell Bicycles.
That's OK, it's helpful in knowing that these are not people whom have a mentality you want to deal with.

The ones that piss me off completely are the ones that apply for castings you have made painfully clear at the top, Middle and at the bottom of the casting that you require people comfortable with topless shots. You go over poses and looks with them in the planning stage and then when they turn up for the shoot and ask  them to loose their top, they tell you they don't do that sort of work.  To add insult to injury, they then try to tell you they didn't see where you wrote 3 times on the casting that this is what the shoot required or understood when you discussed all these topless poses that was what you wanted. 
Yeah right.  Goodbye, thanks for nothing. 

No means nothing on a models profile just like everything else you will find on there.
The information on model profiles is a about as reliable a 2 cent watch, let alone a 2 Bob one. If the info could be relied upon and models didn't play games with the info they list, then there would be no need to ask.

If someone gets upset that I dare to clarify something with them, Tough titties.
Repeated experience has proven that NOTHING can be relied on and even the most obvious and simple things have to be clarified and spelled out in order to prevent your time being wasted.

BTHPhoto wrote:
Actually I gave up asking them a long time ago.  I'm not interested in dealing with dishonest people, no matter what their answer is.  Honestly, it just drives me nuts that people are blatantly hypocritical and dishonest, and people here accept and excuse it like it's rational. 

As for what I would rather the model do, that's pretty simple: either say no and mean it, or say yes and mean it.  That doesn't mean I expect that they'll shoot nudes with anyone who asks - they've always got a right to decline work with anyone for any reason - but if they have recent nude work displayed, and new nude work showing up regularly, then saying "no" is lying.  I would prefer that people not lie.  Pretty simple.

Well said!

The fact that people will argue and try to rebut simple, straightforward, real world logic like this really shows how ridiculous the mentality of places like this has become.

No one expects a model to accept every offer that comes along because they say they model, what is wrong with an honest yes or no to the work styles they like and then taking each one on it's merits from there? Isn't that what happens when they do fashion or swimsuit styles?

It would certainly cut down on a lot of the time wasting and frustration from all sides if there was a logical and straight forward real world ethic that could be trusted.

BTHPhoto wrote:

Or you'll get a self-righteous lecture about how "no means no" and you're a slimy creep for even asking. 

I know this topic has come up over and over, and the standard white-knight response is "she shoots nudes, just not with you," or "if you were good enough she wouldn't be offended," but frankly that's horse shit.  People can choose not to have credited photos displayed, and they can choose not to have secret passworded folders, and they can choose not to present contradictory information on-line.  People can make up all the excuses they want to defend them, but when you deliberately send mixed messages then get offended by people asking what you really meant, the problem is not with the message receiver, it's with the message sender.

Kindergarten 101: tell the truth and people will trust you; tell blatant lies and people will think you're a liar.

True dat!

BTHPhoto wrote:
... but have a couple secret passworded folders and most of your "credited photos" are erotic nudes, implied(?) masturbation, and spread shots, how do you expect photographers to interpret that?  Should we take you at your word and assume you don't do nudes, or contact you for the type of work we see on line?

The most common reason is because they don't want to be found so easy in a search for nude models by GWCs and creeps.

Also, they may do them on their own volition, not for pay per se.

aquarelle wrote:
I once made a nude offer to a model who'd marked "no nudes", and she wrote back, "NO!  I don't shoot nudes--it's says so in my profile!"

But usually if they respond at all, it's a "Thank you for the offer, and I like your work, but I don't shoot nudes."

And occasionally, I get a "I don't usually shoot nudes, but for you I will."

So it never hurts to ask.

Most of the above applies to me too, except most of the time when I have made an offer to a model who has marked "no nudes", I just usually never receive a reply from them!