The F-Stop wrote:
Come on really.. you can't work it out with the model? How about a test post to see how may hits n comments you get.. let the public decide in Critic section of the forums maybe?

The whole point is that she doesn't want them posted anywhere

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.

First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.

When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.

I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.

Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.

Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)

Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?

My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

- Aaron

Yup, screw the model - you own the image, you hold copyright - put the pic in your port - to hell with her.

Now, one question - what are you going to do for models once word gets around that you're putting pics in your port that the model strenuously objects to?
Models do talk... and check references.
How many models are going to stand in line for your shoots if you were to receive bad references?

Good news travels fast - bad news travels faster.
You spend years developing a good reputation but all that work could go right down the tube.

Designit - Edward Olson wrote:
You didn't intend to have her being exposed.
The shot shows exposure than was unintended.
She doesn't want it shown.
Don't post it.

EDIT: To answer your later question, to avoid this situation in the future, don't try to change the terms of the shoot afterward and expect a model to be happy with it.

This.

I strongly recommend getting releases, but that shouldn't change the fact that you should honor your agreements.

Rasa Von Werder wrote:
Hey Aaron - Please listen & hear me out, U've touched a sensitive subject where I have got burned a couple times.  ALWAYS GET A RELEASE EVEN WHEN IT'S TP  BECAUSE WITH TP U HAVE GIVEN SOMETHING VALUABLE TO THE MODEL - they gave U something, U gave them something.  If U R worth Ur salt, which I presume U R, U need a release to use these pictures whether or not U gave the model cash - GET A RELEASE!  ALWAYS!
I have found the following:  With women THEY GET ANTSY, SKITTISH, & HAVE REGRETS RE. ANYTHING & EVERYTHING & THEY WILL PUT U THROUGH THE GRINDER AFTER ALL IS SAID & DONE!  Have had them do it to me!  They AGREE to take the pictures.  Then they want the pictures - then they don't want U to use them! There is always a reason, but @ bottom it's fear, paranoia, bullcrap.
I had the same thing happen with my first MM model.  I paid him twice as much as he was worth.  I can work around faults, but this man had nothing but.  I have always PRIDED myself on working around faults.  So I covered his pot belly with a shirt, but when I turned him around, he had cellulite on his buns.  Then I turned him to the front, his face was so ugly it could stop a clock--I made him turn his face away from the camera.  Finally, after maneuvering every which way, I got about a dozen decent shots--one dozen shots of this creature for $300.
Here is the bottom line.  I then posted the pics, he demanded I take one down because he did not like the way he looked.  I told him "tough luck" & blocked him.
Another model I paid $500. to (& $250. in advances he was not paying back) suddenly writes me a letter to TAKE DOWN ALL HIS IMAGES - I can keep them for "my private use" but not make them public - & remove my name off anything of his - he wants to part ways with me forever.  Later he worked for me again, & said HIS NEW GIRLFRIEND HAD A JEALOUS FIT & MADE HIM DO IT.
GET A RELEASE WITH EACH & EVERY MODEL U USE NO MATTER WHAT - HAVE SOMEONE WITNESS IT JUST IN CASE.
Words to the wise.  THERE WILL ALWAYS B TROUBLE, SOONER OR LATER!

As I said above, whether you get a release or not, you should honor your agreements.

FrancisXavier wrote:
As the photographer, you own the rights to the images, whether a release was signed or not.  So you have the right to use the shots as you see fit,  But... what is legal is not what is always fair.  The basic concept of a TF shoot is that both of you benefit.  If the model feels a particular photo from a shoot benefits you but not them, and if you ever intend to work with this model in the future, then, unless there is some overwhelming reason for using it, don't post, sell or publish in any way the offending image.  It is the old dilemma, what is legal versus what is moral, and in areas not affected by overwhelming need, I always choose moral.  Just my two cents.

There's a difference between some images benefiting me and not the model, and the other way around, which is fine, and having images that actually cause one of us distress.

Bryan Benoit wrote:

The whole point is that she doesn't want them posted anywhere

Well I can understand if she stated in her shoot no nudes and this pic has someting reveealing.. yes then heck I wouldn't post it.

BUT without know that.... your point is she is selfish? TF is a two way street and each should come to some compromise as to what is good or not. So how about putting it up in the critique forum n let the members chime in as part of the fun?

It seems models also don't see thmselves as others do and she just may be obsessing about her cellulite, fat ass, or small tits.. but meanwhile the shot is a killer in the art world.

Vein or stupid?

Negotiate.. compromise?

Nathine wrote:
Input from a model.

I carry with me contract agreements for paid and TFP/CD. I think it's better for both sides. In general what it says is that both parties agree to how the prints are to be released.
If stays much friendlier that way.

Nathine

Big A-Larger Than Life wrote:
Wait.  You make the photographers sign YOUR release?  And they actually do it?

I'd do that.  If she paid me enough.  Double or triple standard rates, maybe, depending on the details.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Okay, so I've got a business/legal/etiquette questions for everyone. I am going to explain things fully so you can understand the situation.

First, I've been in photography for just shy of two years, but in entertainment for much longer than that. Because of my financial situation, I'm still working with my original equipment and mostly doing TF shoots (although I have paid before and would prefer to always if I could). I book about 50% of my shoots via MM and the other are friends, network buddies, and people that I meet. My goal here is to create art and keep building up my portfolio, not establish this as my career. I would eventually love to sell some of my prints, but that's not a priority for me at this time.

When I shoot TF, I do not request my models sign anything. I've read comments from other models who will not sign releases for TF shoots anyway. I do make sure we communicate clearly via email (where there is a paper trail) about the concept and general terms (getting them copies of images, etc.) and I have not had a problem until today.

I had a shoot with a friend a few months ago. The wardrobe was torn blue jeans and a leather jacket without a shirt underneath. No nudity, but a bit daring for her. She liked the concept, agreed to it, and had fun shooting it. We even did some great shots of her wearing a t-shirt underneath as well. I got her copies of the untouched files and have slowly been processing them and releasing them into my portfolio.

Today, I finished processing one of my favorite image from the shoot that required a bit of extra retouching. Her pose causes her breast to hang out more than the others, but still completely covered up. I love the image and the couple people I showed it to also think it's great. I texted her that I was about to post another image of her and the conversation quickly turned south.

Long story short, she doesn't want me to post it unless I photoshop a fake t-shirt onto her (which I'm not willing to do). And she actually drew the line saying that she didn't sign a release and is refusing to let me post it online or in any sort of public exhibition, etc. She claims she doesn't want it to come back and bite her later. (She is also an actress.)

Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

What I would like to hear from everyone is, how could this have been avoiding and what really would my legal rights in a situation like this be? My immediate thought is that I could post it regardless of her wishes, but that would burn a bridge that I want to remain intact. Are there some agreements that some of you are using that help in these situations, even without cash flowing (and maybe even saying what would happen if the photographer later wanted to sell prints)? Is there anything else that I'm not thinking?

My goal is to hopefully start getting the cash to pay every model I shoot with so I fully own photos and can do what I want with them, but I'm still a ways off from being able to do that.

Any advice is appreciated! Thanks!

- Aaron

no release, no posting...next time, get a release regardless.

The F-Stop wrote:
Well I can understand if she stated in her shoot no nudes and this pic has someting reveealing.. yes then heck I wouldn't post it.

BUT without know that.... your point is she is selfish? TF is a two way street and each should come to some compromise as to what is good or not. So how about putting it up in the critique forum n let the members chime in as part of the fun?

It seems models also don't see thmselves as others do and she just may be obsessing about her cellulite, fat ass, or small tits.. but meanwhile the shot is a killer in the art world.

Vein or stupid?

Negotiate.. compromise?

...

wat

She agreed to implied nudity. The boob wasn't a total nip slip but there was more boob than she was comfortable with for one reason or another. She asks the photographer not to use it.

... so you tell him to post it on a PUBLIC critique forum to peers he does not know? ... because you think that she might think she's fat or something?

Did you ever consider that maybe she just doesn't want that much boob to be visible for some reason and that posting it in a PUBLIC critique forum to strangers is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the OP should do?

It's a trade shoot, and she felt a line was crossed and requested for the image to not see the light of day. I highly doubt it's a matter of "omg I don't like my boob fat" ... and it was one image that just didn't fly as opposed to the entire shoot.

And, y'know, no money exchanged hands... if she was paid, I'd be of a different opinion, but it sounds like she's a friend and she just didn't feel OK with that image.

JoJo wrote:

Yup, screw the model - you own the image, you hold copyright - put the pic in your port - to hell with her.

Now, one question - what are you going to do for models once word gets around that you're putting pics in your port that the model strenuously objects to?
Models do talk... and check references.
How many models are going to stand in line for your shoots if you were to receive bad references?

Good news travels fast - bad news travels faster.
You spend years developing a good reputation but all that work could go right down the tube.

^^^^  Listen to this!  ^^^^^

Barely StL wrote:
Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.

There was no nip-slip. She was still covered where it mattered and the shot was within what we discussed prior to shooting. She just got cold feel afterward and decided she didn't want it out there in the universe.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
Now, there are several ways to look at this. First, I do not want to damage my rapport and friendship with her and I'd even like to shoot with her again. With that in mind, I am (begrudgingly) respecting her request.

Most likley, your rapport with the model is toast regardless of how much you accomdate her.

Rasa Von Werder wrote:
GET A RELEASE WITH EACH & EVERY MODEL U USE NO MATTER WHAT - HAVE SOMEONE WITNESS IT JUST IN CASE.
Words to the wise.  THERE WILL ALWAYS B TROUBLE, SOONER OR LATER!

GingerMuse wrote:
but seriously, you should always have the model sign a release. It's not worth it not to have it.

To date I have done over 500 model shoots over the past 8 years. Out of all those, I have only had one hostile request to take images down and one friendly request. I've also taken down all images of 1 model by my own choice because the relationship soured and I no longer wanted to show any of my work with them.

IMHO, those are favorible enough odds so that the hassle or getting releases is greater than the hassle of a rare dissatisfied model and therefore choose not to bother with them.

And frankly, I find it to be liberating as do many of the models.

Nathine wrote:
Input from a model.

I carry with me contract agreements for paid and TFP/CD. I think it's better for both sides. In general what it says is that both parties agree to how the prints are to be released.
If stays much friendlier that way.

Nathine

Yup, it stays friendly. I'd say, *please* leave my studio now.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
There was no nip-slip. She was still covered where it mattered and the shot was within what we discussed prior to shooting. She just got cold feel afterward and decided she didn't want it out there in the universe.

The only 'safe' way of doing this type of shot is to shoot with a model who does topless or nude.
Failing that, explain to the model that there may be 'loose nipples' running amok but that since she's not agreed to 'topless' then she can review any you deem borderline and let her decide.

Unless she agrees up-front to nippleage, it's churlish to post them.

When shooting it may be feasible to tape the nipples to prevent 'slippage': these were taped...



Here you can just see the edge of the tape where it hasn't been 'shopped' out yet:



Only a little straightening of the garment's edge in photoshop was required to get it to look like it was hanging naturally...

Barely StL wrote:
Nip slips happen - a lot. If nudity (or nipples showing or whatever) was not part of your agreement with the model before the shoot, don't even ask. Just delete them.

There's one model I've shot nine times over the past two years. In one avant-garde, open-jacket shoot there were at least a dozen nip slips. She knows nobody will ever see them.

It's amazing how much more relaxed she is - and how much more willing to push the envelope. She is now free to focus on poses and expressions rather than worrying about whether an open jacket is a little too open.

There should be a clear understanding and agreement as to the intent of a shoot from the beginning. Stick with the agreement.

If a model feels that a photos from a trade shoot shows more of anything than she's comfortable with, don't use the photo; You have a lot more to lose than to gain.

If you're doing a paid shoot for publication, work with a model with whom whatever it is that you want to shoot is clearly within her limits - not at the edge of them.

Pretty much what I do:-) And because of it models aren't scared to try different things with me or shoot implied stuff.

Aaron Matthew Kaiser wrote:
A Google search resulting in a photog who uses the following agreement for TF shoots. Has anyone tried using something like this? Thoughts on its fairness?

http://www.pbjae.us/TFP%20Contract.pdf

Any release you have the model sign would cover you... from legal troubles. But not from drama, and certainly not losing a friend.

As was said, you have two choices:

1- always find a model whose limits are one step further than what you are shooting (in your case, a model who is ok with topless). This avoids having to keep your best picture from a shoot to yourself.

2- shoot close to the model's limits, and put in writing in your agreement that you will show the model each picture you wish to release BEFORE doing so. This ensures you are on the same page, and you will also remember to show her the picture before you actually spent time in post production for nothing.

But personally, I prefer having a separate release for TF. Any model who say she won't sing a release will not have pictures taken from me, unless she pays for the service.

Allure Photography - MA wrote:
ALWAYS!!!!! Get a Model Release. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!!

What possible difference could that make.