GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue.

Where's the rule book that states this?  TFCD just means you will provide images on a CD.  Most photographers don't operate like that.  I understand you can barter your way into more images with a less experienced photographer, but that wouldn't fly with the serious photographers.  I know some high end photographers who might give out a couple images for a TF shoot and that's it.  A CD with every image has an amateur ring to it. 

If I was a better photographer, I'd definitely be more selective with images.

Kalen Lea wrote:
On TFCD shoots, I use to let the model choose up to a certain number of images that I would put through to editing for a finished product, and then along with those, would give them all of the raw images from the shoot. Doing this, I've come across bad edits and no credits with those images. Lesson learned.

Now, I let the model choose up to a certain number of photos (10) to be put through for processing into a finished product, and only send him/her web versions and printable versions on a CD. But only the finished products. I figure 10 photos is enough to help a portfolio and give enough photos to choose from and change out, etc.

Do models expect to only get finished products on a CD or do they expect all of the photos from the shoot since it was TFCD?

Models, does this seem fair to you? Up to 10 finished photos that YOU chose?

Photographers, what is your way of dealing with the photos after a shoot?

EDIT: I have a page on my site that explains what a model can expect before and after a shoot, how many photos she/he will get, and a time frame they will get them in. Just fyi. I always tell a model to read pretty much in the beginning of contact.

On a lot of tf shoots that I do I get web sized images only.... Reason? A lot of photographers do not want models going ANYWHERE to get their prints printed. A lot of places people go for cheap prints can make the quality seem worse or the colour off and the photographers do not want that print hanging on your wall not looking true to the art and you telling people "Such and such did that!". So a lot of photographers I collaborate with will give you the images for web and you can buy the print.

Another thing. Most photographers choose the images to retouch and don't give me a selection the only time this has been a problem is when Tfing with new photographers something I don't do anymore due to bad experiences. I also have never received 10 images from the same shoot unless it was a full day shoot and a lot of themes were gone over. You only really need 1 - 2 images of the same look in your port otherwise the image just doesn't seem as strong together so the most I generally have received is 5 from a shoot. Anymore than that and it just seems useless as it wont see the light of day.

Conclusion. You are very generous and over thinking that you are ripping people off.

Kalen Lea wrote:
Photographers, what is your way of dealing with the photos after a shoot?

EDIT: I have a page on my site that explains what a model can expect before and after a shoot, how many photos she/he will get, and a time frame they will get them in. Just fyi. I always tell a model to read pretty much in the beginning of contact.

If a model is shooting TFP, then she can have copies of all the pictures as the pictures are why she is letting me take pictures.  I'd hate to only be able to take ten pictures and be under pressure to have them all come out perfect.   As far as edited images, she gets all of them, however many that might be.  If I only think three of a thousand turned out worth anything, then there are only three.  If I find a hundred images that great, then she gets a hundred edited pictures.

If I'm paying a model then I'm paying a nude model to run and jump.  I'm also shooting "full-auto" (the kind of full-auto you find on a machine gun) in the hopes I capture a good moment amongst the action.  I've always offered to let the model take a copy of whole set, and all but one have wisely declined.  The few images that work, work, but more than 99% of them are travesties.

GingerMuse wrote:

Just call it "trade" or "trade for images."
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

Why would you assume that? The only thing you can assume from a TFCD shoot is that the images you get will be on CD. Anything else that you assume and do not discuss with the photographer before the shoot is just foolish.

GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue.

No thats typically incorrect.  TFCD simply means that they are getting a disk of the images that are agreed upon, not the entire shoot.

GingerMuse wrote:
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

Why would you make such an ASSumption?

GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue.

This is not correct. Under no circumstances would a photographer give a model every image on CD. Firstly, there's all the duds, where the model's eyes are closed or something similar is wrong. Secondly, it sometimes takes time to get the pose correct and several photos will be taken while this is happening. They will look similar to the end image but will not be the exact pose or expression required.

Are you saying you expect the photographer to waste time editing/manipulating these images? You spend two/three hours posing and you expect the photographer to spend two/three days working on images neither you nor he will want anyone to see. That's not how it works or can work.

Come to an agreement before the shoot and provide that and only that. Never give out RAW files or unedited work. Two or three images per look or up to twenty images is normal.

Kalen Lea wrote:

10 = bad thing?
I figure if they work hard for free, why not be more generous since their photos ARE their payments. If that makes sense, at all.

Maybe 5 would be better. It's not 1, but it's not a bunch of the same shoot.

It's not free and if you feel the value of your work = 10 images then that is value you have placed on it.  A model is only going to use 1 or maybe 2 images from a given look, so for me it all depends on how many looks.  10 from 3 looks would be a waste and I would not be doing my job of selecting the very best, but 10 from a 6 look shoot would be too few.

GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.

No, you wouldn't. TFCD refers to the delivery method, on CD. It used to be called TFP, Time For Print.

It's not TFforallimagesonCD.

It is whatever is negotiated.

10 is more than fair.

DAN CRUIKSHANK wrote:
The fact that you let models choose which shots they want edited is more than most photographers are willing to do for a TF shoot, mainly because it complicates things and slows down the process, not because they are mean or arrogant.

When I was doing tf shoots strictly for portfolio building I would pick whatever shots I liked (1-4 per look usually), retouch them, and email web sized files to the model... simple, easy, models got their pics within a few weeks and were always happy.

I wanted to specifically reply to your post.

I use to not let them pick, and I would edit what I thought was best. I never had a complaint until last year, and it was a HUGE complaint. The model went off on me, saying how I didn't listen and how he/she wasn't sure he/she wanted to be portrayed this way, etc. I gave him/her all of the photos to shut them up. I wasn't going to use them in my port anyway, after how he/she acted. So from then on out, I let the model choose, and I'm totally cool with them taking their time to choose. If it delays them getting their photos, then that's on them. I've always had the model choose photos by the next day. They know what they need in their portfolio, I don't.

Just my thought process! Everyone works differently. But I'm just explaining why I don't work that way anymore.

-------------------------------------------------

I'll just use the term TF. I've never had a misunderstanding with a model about what tfcd means. Like others have said, who needs or even wants 200 photos of themselves? (non-nude) They're useless after they have picked the ones they want/need for their port.

Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
As a model I like to choose 1 image from each look. I think that's fair. If I don't like a look at all I won't choose an image from that set. I don't see a need for more than what is useful. I don't need a CD of all the images. It will just sit in a drawer since they are unable to be used. I do like to see the images so I can learn what poses work and which ones don't but images from a shoot can be seen through webpages like smugmug or dropbox. So from a TF shoot I would like to get 3-5 usable images.

Question for you. Would you want to see the awkward/weird poses. I've always thrown them out, but do you see them as learning tools? Especially for new models? I usually catch awkward posing, but sometimes it slips by or looks good in person and awkward on camera.

GingerMuse wrote:
If it's TFCD you generally would provide a copy of all images on CD.
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."
Make sure to let the model know what you are going to provide prior to the start of the shoot and there shouldn't be an issue.

Where in the term TFCD does it state a quantity, and more specifically, ALL images? The "CD" portion of the term is the delivery medium, just as the "P" in TFP means Print. According to your "logic" a TFP shoot would mean the photographer must provide prints of ALL images? Really, how can you butcher the definition of such a simple and universally understood term?

To the OP, when I'm working with a model and it's specifically for portfolio development, I usually provide 2-3 images per look. Of course, as you can see from the obscure post above, never assume anything and discuss and document everything prior to the shoot.

Unless the model is just a Facebook Image Collector, there's no reason to provide all images. A working model usually finds a small quantity of quality images far more useful than a full CD.

AJScalzitti wrote:
It's not free and if you feel the value of your work = 10 images then that is value you have placed on it.  A model is only going to use 1 or maybe 2 images from a given look, so for me it all depends on how many looks.  10 from 3 looks would be a waste and I would not be doing my job of selecting the very best, but 10 from a 6 look shoot would be too few.

Well, it's UP TO 10. 10 is just the max number they can choose. So if they choose 2, then I edit those for them. If they choose 7, I'll edit those. I guess I should've mentioned that in the original post. It's not always going to be exactly 10 pictures.

I use to not have a max, and they would be picking 20-30 and then I get way behind on editing and usually end up pulling my hair out.

Kalen Lea wrote:
Now, I let the model choose up to a certain number of photos (10) to be put through for processing into a finished product, and only send him/her web versions and printable versions on a CD. But only the finished products. I figure 10 photos is enough to help a portfolio and give enough photos to choose from and change out, etc.

Sounds reasonable enough to me.

Just remember though there will be cases where no matter how many pictures you send, some people just won't be happy. I once had a model bitch that out of the 25 I sent (as per how I edit...which will be discussed shortly), she didn't like a single one & wanted more.

She went so far as threatening to sick a lawyer-friend on me for something or other. I told her that the friend was welcome to send a formal written inquiry, printed on the firm's letterhead, to my street address & I'd be happy to discuss the matter further. Strangely enough, I never heard back from her.

Kalen Lea wrote:
Photographers, what is your way of dealing with the photos after a shoot?

I let the shoot decompress for 2 weeks (if not longer), write up a wishlist of possible pictures I like, edit from there, & deliver the pictures. The model is then usually free to do with them as they see fit whether its post them on their FB, their Tumblr, their Flickr, or their MM.

I don't promise any number of pictures (some shoots are better than others, partially because A. I work on-location A LOT (Mother Nature is not always cooperative) & B. I'm rapport driven.

I also don't bother with sending high res (finished) print files, aside from the few weddings I do, I never got the sense people actually took the time to print them out. I also stopped taking the time in sending people proofs for their input because, that too, I'd either never hear back from them or it'd be 6+ months later after I retired the shoot.

GingerMuse wrote:
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

I can't help but think you either get surprised a lot, or you get turned down a lot.

I haven't come across one photographer on MM whose work I admire that is willing to give a model every shot.

Matt Knowles wrote:

I can't help but think you either get surprised a lot, or you get turned down a lot.

I haven't come across one photographer on MM whose work I admire that is willing to give a model every shot.

yeah, thats just nutty. Why people would even want ALL the images is beyond me, but if I see that in a models profile, that they expect that, instant pass

Kalen Lea wrote:

Question for you. Would you want to see the awkward/weird poses. I've always thrown them out, but do you see them as learning tools? Especially for new models? I usually catch awkward posing, but sometimes it slips by or looks good in person and awkward on camera.

Yes I would like to see awkward poses so I can learn what does not work. Even if it is just during the shoot on the camera. I may think a pose can look good but it just look strange and unflattering. I don't want to keep posing that way if it clearly does not work.

ChiMo wrote:
More than fair. I send out about 3-5.

Something you'll notice as you move along-
Newer, less experienced models will want "all the photos, all RAW files, blah, blah "
More experienced models will want quality over quantity.

+1

If models ask, I tell them I will only guarantee 3 images (total, not per look) from a trade shoot. However, I'm a nice guy so I often end up retouching quite a few more than that, but that's the offer and that's the bottom line. Anything more than 3 is entirely at my discretion.

GingerMuse wrote:
If you don't want to provide all images on CD, then don't call it "TFCD."

I call it a "test", so I guess I'm safe there then!



Just my $0.02

Ciao
Stefano

www.stefanobrunesci.com

Lynn Elizabeth wrote:
Yes I would like to see awkward poses so I can learn what does not work. Even if it is just during the shoot on the camera. I may think a pose can look good but it just look strange and unflattering. I don't want to keep posing that way if it clearly does not work.

That's what I figured! Good to know. Thank you.


-----------------------------------------

Thank you everyone for your responses! Models and photographers. It's good to know how others work.

ChiMo wrote:
More than fair. I send out about 3-5.

Something you'll notice as you move along-
Newer, less experienced models will want "all the photos, all RAW files, blah, blah "
More experienced models will want quality over quantity.

Yep.

/thread

GingerMuse wrote:
I don't know about models in other areas of the country/world, but if someone tells me or my model friends TFCD, we assume we are getting ALL images on CD following the shoot.

I think you are assuming the "CD" is all of the images when I think most people - models and phtographers -- assume whatever they are getting is ON a CD.  The old phrase was "TFP" or trade for print meaning you received a specified number of finished prints.  I don't think you or anyone for that matter would expect a copy of every singe image printed for you in a TFP shoot.  The term I use is just "TF" and together we decide what I will give the model before we shoot.

T-D-L wrote:
I've sent anywhere from 2-25.  I don't bother letting anyone else make selections, as that draws out the process more than it needs to be.  The way I see it, if  you want to work with me then you should trust my judgement in selecting the right photos.

Agreed.
If I choose or ask to trade with someone it's because I trust they can give me what I need even if it isn't what I want. If their portfolio doesn't show they can, why would I work with them?

I did a shoot with a photographer yesterday. 4 outfits, different angles and locations, over 1k photos.  I need 1 of each look but would love 2. What in the world would I do with 1k photos filled with lighting tests, awkward hands and poor focus?  And I don't want to go through all of them to try and find the best ones.

ChiMo wrote:
More than fair. I send out about 3-5.

Something you'll notice as you move along-
Newer, less experienced models will want "all the photos, all RAW files, blah, blah "
More experienced models will want quality over quantity.

+1

DG at studio47 wrote:
The OP has been shooting for 7 years and just now asking this question [of course, I began with architecture, flowers, landscapes--no complaints from those subjects!]?

I'm not sure if this is meant as a negative statement or not...
I started getting into photography 7 years ago and have done it off and on. But I wasn't serious enough to actually take the time to learn all of this...until the first time I joined Mayhem before. I've made mistakes and experimented with different ways of working, and that is how I learned. I'm not completely in the dark about all of this, but it's more of just a second opinion that I am seeking. I am aware that models look for how they look rather than quality and comp of the photo. I also give my personal suggestions, and most of the time that works out along with throwing out any blurry photos or mishaps.

The problem with flowers and landscapes is they're not exactly versatile. Plus there isn't anything spectacular around Raleigh, NC that I could shoot more than once.

DG at studio47 wrote:
The OP has been shooting for 7 years and just now asking this question [of course, I began with architecture, flowers, landscapes--no complaints from those subjects!]?

I'm not sure if this is meant as a negative statement or not...
I started getting into photography 7 years ago and have done it off and on. But I wasn't serious enough to actually take the time to learn all of this...until the first time I joined Mayhem before. I've made mistakes and experimented with different ways of working, and that is how I learned. I'm not completely in the dark about all of this, but it's more of just a second opinion that I am seeking. I am aware that models look for how they look rather than quality and comp of the photo. I also give my personal suggestions, and most of the time that works out along with throwing out any blurry photos or mishaps.

The problem with flowers and landscapes is they're not exactly versatile. Plus there isn't anything spectacular around Raleigh, NC that I could shoot more than once.

DG writes:
Not meant to be negative--I went through the same process OP. I began with inanimate objects and when I got to shooting models, I struggled with what and how much to "trade" with them [I shot 100% trade with models]. after several really bad experiences, I settled on shooting, choosing the images to edit, and sending the model the edited images on  CD. You will enjoy your work if you feel that you have enough control of your work. I basically think that one decides what the agreement will be,puts it in writing, then sticks to it. takes a lot of pressure off you from the beginning to the end of the process. Best wishes OP!!