Kelly Kooper wrote:
Hey guys,

I've been chatting to a lovely male photographer in the states. He has some beautiful images in his port and is clearly an artistic minded and creative photographer.

He was just telling me that he uses a remote trigger and models as the male in all of his nude couples images.

There is nothing smutty or tacky in his portfolio.

Models, what are your thoughts? For those of you that shoot art nudes, would you be ok with this arrangement, given the above circumstances? (i.e. he has a quality portfolio of professional images)

I've never come across this before and unfortunately won't be able to work with this photographer any time soon due to our being in countries on opposite sides of the world but I think I would, under these special circumstances.

What do you think?

Hi,
I see that you say these are art nudes and not boudoir. I've shot couples nudes and do not have an issue.

I've seen some very interesting couples boudoir and I know some models are photographers that do self-portraiture, Yet, without seeing his work I cannot comment on how I feel about this particular situation. The work would be the deciding factor.
Jen
edit: and self-portraiture with a couple seems to up the difficulty level, yet if you say his work is beautiful, why not check a reference and see what the other models thought of the experience?

Damianne wrote:
Is he in NY?

Yes, he is.

Do you know who I'm talking about then?

Love_mya wrote:
Hi Kelly, love your port too by the way!!

I have had heaps of offers for shoots that the photographer is the model as well.. and i always turn them down, i find that its really uncomfortable for me to model nude with someone who is taking my photos, i feel its likes work and i dont want to see my work "employer" with their clothes off, regarding how great their work is..

but thats just my opinion and how i feel only.

Thanks Mya, that's lovely of you

I know what you mean, it's why I winced when I saw it too. It just seems a little too Penthouse forum.

I'd investigate it further if I was planning to shoot with him but as he lives so far away, it's not an immediate issue.

I thought it was interesting enough to open it up for discussion though.

Did you turn down the offers you got because you were concerned that the photographer/s was after more or simply because the idea made you uncomfortable?

Art Silva Photography wrote:
As an art nude photographer myself... No... there are professional boundaries an I really believe that the players should stick to their tasks on what ever side of the camera they hold title to. You are either the model or you are the photographer, not both.
I don't care who it is, if he wants to model nude with you book him as a model and hire a photographer, this set>focus>run into the scene>pose and click the trigger is just all to perverted... probably why I was never a TR fan.

Kelly, you are an amazing and stunning gorgeous model and I always love your work but this is YOUR decision, one you have to be comfortable with and payed VERY well for  (which makes it even more creepy, haha)

Thanks so much, I love your work too. I hope you come out of hiatus soon

I know, I do think it's an odd concept, which is why I wanted to open it up to the forums and see what the general consensus was. Most people seem against it but I think it's hard to judge properly without having seen the photographer's port and although I'm not bad-mouthing him, I don't think I'm allowed to list his MM account on here....So you'll just have to take my word for it

Damianne wrote:
Is he in NY?

Why not let us see who he is and his website so we can judge on the images.
RON

Rays Fine Art wrote:
It wouldn't be my thing, but so long as the people involved are OK with it I don't see the problem.  It's a personal, not an artistic decision, so therefore, like the question of nudity itself, it's a decision that's not subject to anyone else's value judgments.

If I were the model, I'd certainly be upset and ready to walk if it were sprung on me during the session rather than discussed and decided on prior to the shoot, and I'd certainly walk if it were presented as a demand rather than as a request, but so long as there is no coercion, I see nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

All IMHO as always, of course.

Absolutely Ray, I thought it was great that he was so upfront about it. In my experience, the dodgy people are the ones that aren't so honest so the fact that he explained how he shoots in case it was an issue is a good sign too.

I wondered how common it was (the photographer acting as the model and also with another model) because I have shot with a photographer before with him using a remote trigger while he was also in the picture but it was a clothed alternative shoot. I had no problems whatsoever throughout that shoot though, which is probably why I'm more open to considering this one.

It's really just a topic I wanted to discuss with others to see what their views were because I won't be shooting with him any time soon (he lives in another country!)

Force Of Nature wrote:

Why not let us see who he is and his website so we can judge on the images.
RON

I would love to do that, I think you'll all see what I see - he really does do some interesting and beautiful work, very focused on posing and lovely lighting.

Am I allowed to post a MM link on here though? I'm not sure what the forum rules are on this?

Neil Snape wrote:
There is a guy in Paris that does time pieces with him in his pictures in a humorous way. I know the girls he has shot and has never posed a problem. I won't say his name as he may have a MM account.

So if they are tasteful and not implicating anything and you feel comfortable then why not.

Personally it's not my thing, but more because my appreciation of the models I shoot is at the highest level but to see me nude or not in my own pictures would destroy that.

Yeah, exactly. I know the situation would test a lot of people's comfort levels but it can work well too.

I didn't post this photographer's MM account because I have a feeling it's against the MM forum rules but I wish I could because let's face it, we're visual people - I think people might feel differently if they could see his work.

I know what you mean. I do photography as well and I can't imagine posing nude with any of my models; it would be far too distracting for me to focus on everything else!

Darren Brade wrote:
Not my thing, but what I do find bizarre is:

1. He's the male model in his port
2. Model says "There is nothing smutty or tacky in his portfolio"
3. Model likes his port
4. Photographer states how he achieves a technically difficult shot.

Yet after all the above there is still a problem?

People should stop thinking with their pants all the time and admit some people are just artists and able to execute a picture without the need shag their subjects.

Whatever next? Topless beaches? Well, I never!!!

Sigh. Some people attack others for the sake of it. It's very frustrating.

It's an unusual situation. I posted my thoughts on it and asked others what their opinion was to see how the majority would react if they were offered the same.

There is no problem. I just thought it was an interesting topic. If you don't, you don't have to read it.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
Sigh. Some people attack others for the sake of it. It's very frustrating.

It's an unusual situation. I posted my thoughts on it and asked others what their opinion was to see how the majority would react if they were offered the same.

There is no problem. I just thought it was an interesting topic. If you don't, you don't have to read it.

Was I really attacking? Don't take it personally I just find it bizarre, you clearly like his work and in most posts seem to be defending it, yet at the same time you find it odd!

It seems here that models and photographers should be exclusively that and never the twain shall meet. People can be talented at both and from your description he can do both at the same time.

My question, would you be having this discussion if you did NOT know he was also the photographer and was working on the assumption that the male in his portfolio was just a regular model?

MainePaintah wrote:
IMO even if you say his port is "artistic", he sounds so egotistical to put himself in the photos that red flags go off in my brain about doing that!

What, he can hire a beautiful model (you) but he can't afford to pay a male model to pose for his "couple" photos?

Crossing the line if you ask me!

Aren't all models "egotistical" to some extent? I think the assumption you are making is his work is based on costs alone.

I know several photographers/artists who include themselves in their work.

Kelly Kooper wrote:
I didn't post this photographer's MM account because I have a feeling it's against the MM forum rules but I wish I could because let's face it, we're visual people - I think people might feel differently if they could see his work.

Yes, I think you're right, to post his profile here could be deemed as a critique in the current context so better to play it safe.

There shouldn't be anything stopping you from sending a PM to those who ask you, I don't think that would be a rule break.

Rays Fine Art wrote:
It wouldn't be my thing, but so long as the people involved are OK with it I don't see the problem.  It's a personal, not an artistic decision, so therefore, like the question of nudity itself, it's a decision that's not subject to anyone else's value judgments.

If I were the model, I'd certainly be upset and ready to walk if it were sprung on me during the session rather than discussed and decided on prior to the shoot, and I'd certainly walk if it were presented as a demand rather than as a request, but so long as there is no coercion, I see nothing intrinsically wrong with it.

All IMHO as always, of course.

I agree with this.

Neil Snape wrote:
There is a guy in Paris that does time pieces with him in his pictures in a humorous way. I know the girls he has shot and has never posed a problem. I won't say his name as he may have a MM account.

He does. I've shot with him in Paris, it was great.

Darren Brade wrote:

Was I really attacking? Don't take it personally I just find it bizarre, you clearly like his work and in most posts seem to be defending it, yet at the same time you find it odd!

It seems here that models and photographers should be exclusively that and never the twain shall meet. People can be talented at both and from your description he can do both at the same time.

My question, would you be having this discussion if you did NOT know he was also the photographer and was working on the assumption that the male in his portfolio was just a regular model?

Ah, my apologies then. I obviously misinterpreted your post.

I was in 2 minds about it, which must have come across in my messages. For the most part, I think he's perfectly safe and just a little eccentric. I have no issue with someone being a model and photographer (obviously ) but I was questioning the idea of being both at the same time - simply because I don't think I could do both well at the same time.

No, I wouldn't question it if the guy in his port was a male model. My issue isn't working with male models or even working with photographers who also model; it was more a query about someone who was doing both at the same time and nude, on top of that. I've worked with a photographer who acted as both in a shoot but we were both clothed. Nudity can be an additional complication and, as others have said, I also questioned why he couldn't just hire a male model.

Incidentally I have PMed the people who wanted to see his MM account directly and both have echoed my sentiments - that he is a talented photographer who takes some lovely artistic shots.

Essentially I think what we have here is a situation that is the exception to the rule - something that might sound dodgy and, as we've seen in this post, has had many people reject the idea but it's interesting to note that those that have seen his work have been for it and thought it worth investigating further.

This is probably a dangerous post to put up as many cases will be dodgy but it's nice to post that sometimes it really isn't too. We usually only ever hear about the bad stuff.

BTHPhoto wrote:
I understand this seems to cross some line for a lot of people, but can someone articulate what exactly makes this different than working with a male model who is not operating the camera?  I really can't see any substantive difference.  Is this just one of those "it's not the way it's usually done so there must be perverse motives" reactions?

It's one of those "what's the motivation here" things.

Force Of Nature wrote:

Why not let us see who he is and his website so we can judge on the images.
RON

That would be outing.

This isn't who I thought it was.

Darren Brade wrote:

Aren't all models "egotistical" to some extent? I think the assumption you are making is his work is based on costs alone.

I know several photographers/artists who include themselves in their work.

I said that I think the photographer is egotistical not the model!  Kelly Cooper did not say that the photographer was a model/photographer, and I stand by my opinion that for a photographer to put himself NUDE in the photo with a gorgeous female model, he must think pretty highly of himself.

And no matter how you slice it, or how good looking you as a photographer think you are (meaning him, not you) I think it crosses the line and is way into the "ewww" category!

I know many artists and photographers who paint/photograph self portraits. This is not what is being discussed here. What is being discusses is the photographer wants to get naked with the model, which I think is wrong! You are welcomed to your opinion!

MainePaintah wrote:

I said that I think the photographer is egotistical not the model!  Kelly Cooper did not say that the photographer was a model/photographer, and I stand by my opinion that for a photographer to put himself NUDE in the photo with a gorgeous female model, he must think pretty highly of himself.

And no matter how you slice it, or how good looking you as a photographer think you are (meaning him, not you) I think it crosses the line and is way into the "ewww" category!

I know many artists and photographers who paint/photograph self portraits. This is not what is being discussed here. What is being discusses is the photographer wants to get naked with the model, which I think is wrong! You are welcomed to your opinion!

Likewise I stand by mine.
There are way too many assumptions about what the photographer's motives are based on very little fact.

If the photographer sprung this on the model during a shoot it would be fully understandable why someone would be uncomfortable, but that is not what is being discussed.

Kelly Kooper wrote:

Ah, my apologies then. I obviously misinterpreted your post.

I was in 2 minds about it, which must have come across in my messages. For the most part, I think he's perfectly safe and just a little eccentric. I have no issue with someone being a model and photographer (obviously ) but I was questioning the idea of being both at the same time - simply because I don't think I could do both well at the same time.

No, I wouldn't question it if the guy in his port was a male model. My issue isn't working with male models or even working with photographers who also model; it was more a query about someone who was doing both at the same time and nude, on top of that. I've worked with a photographer who acted as both in a shoot but we were both clothed. Nudity can be an additional complication and, as others have said, I also questioned why he couldn't just hire a male model.

Incidentally I have PMed the people who wanted to see his MM account directly and both have echoed my sentiments - that he is a talented photographer who takes some lovely artistic shots.

Essentially I think what we have here is a situation that is the exception to the rule - something that might sound dodgy and, as we've seen in this post, has had many people reject the idea but it's interesting to note that those that have seen his work have been for it and thought it worth investigating further.

This is probably a dangerous post to put up as many cases will be dodgy but it's nice to post that sometimes it really isn't too. We usually only ever hear about the bad stuff.

Hi Kelly

No need to apologise, I'm just offering another opinion.

Based on what you've seen, if he does it often enough he may be very skilled at doing these types of shoot.

*********************
The idea made me feel very uncomfortable. If it was just something simple like holding my arm or  hand on my leg in the shot i!s fine, but if its a whole person in the shot and holding me or standing next to me naked it makes me really uncomfortable !

Kelly Kooper wrote:
I would love to do that, I think you'll all see what I see - he really does do some interesting and beautiful work, very focused on posing and lovely lighting.

Am I allowed to post a MM link on here though? I'm not sure what the forum rules are on this?

1) Not allowed, as it would be offering his work up for an unsolicited critique which is against the rules of the site, and as Damianne mentioned it could be viewed as outing as well, which would be another rule against calling attention to his unusual shoot dynamic.

2) While others have expressed the obvious concerns about the situation, you seem like as professional who knows how to conduct herself, you're aware of how he shoots and models, what is the harm in contacting those he has worked with to check his references and make a decision taking that and his portfolio into consideration, similar as you would for working with any photographer.

Yes, the situation is highly unusual, but if the work is supported by a strong enough quality that it suits your needs, I'd say do your normal due diligence and not jump to conclusions based primarily on people's imaginations, assumptions, and preconceptions.

MainePaintah wrote:
IMO even if you say his port is "artistic", he sounds so egotistical to put himself in the photos that red flags go off in my brain about doing that!

Crossing the line if you ask me!

LOL Rembrant put himself in his paintings all the time. Yes, I would say he was egotistical too. 

I thought crossing lines was the whole point of creating controversial art.

Colorado Model Amber wrote:
Seems creepy to me

says the model with two hands ensconsing the child in her avatar.....