Isis22 wrote:
You just don't get it. If you want to actually help, then tell the models whose profiles you have looked at how to improve them. They are not in the forums and probably don't give a crap but hey if it makes you feel better...

I actually don't think he should do that. Giving advice to random people who didn't ask for your advice? no no, that's asking for troubles. but yeah at least it's more private

Art of the nude wrote:

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the models what they should be doing in the Model Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

Was that the same one who ranted against BW avatars?

Same guy...he received plenty of briggings

IDiivil wrote:
Thank you, Howard. Please don't misunderstand - I totally get what you're saying and know you mean it with good intent.

Here's the problem...

You're saying that people who register on here, regardless of their intent, should be building a strong portfolio. This is an understandable outlook, but the problem comes in at the point that you assume, by registering, people are serious enough to care.

The fact of the matter is, not everyone cares. Regardless of the effort they take to register, it's the effort that is required after the initial registration that the model/photographer/etc is unwilling to follow up on.

So what is their purpose of being on MM/registering in the first place?
- Chasing the dream of fame and realizing it isn't so easy, so they give up.
- Registering on MM for the community/forums/messages/chat ... which, while not MM's whole intention, can be proved with how many profiles get kicked out for initiating "let's date" messages or otherwise.
- Doing the actual model photography industry thing, but too lazy to update their portfolio
- Not having enough time to really follow up on the hobby
- Not finding MM that particularly important as a showcase for portfolios and thus ignoring it
etc etc etc...

I could go on forever with theories.

But heck, look at all the profiles that have been left alone for years without the individual logging into it. They aren't even motivated to delete the dang thing. If there are people that feel that way, then clearly, there will be others of similar apathetic tendencies  / lack of time / whatever.

Howard, if MM was a 100% committed, serious group of people in its entirety, then yes, what you say is sound advice and should be something everyone takes to heart... but while MM is a great tool that both professionals and serious hobbyists can use, it isn't some super strict agency ruleset website. You can be short, you can be tall, you can be thin, you can be fat, you can be experienced, you can be new, you can be active, you can be completely missing in action... so on and so forth.

In short, MM is too diverse to give advice like, "Everyone should have the best of the best portfolio."

Such a statement does not take into account all the various goals and intentions people have with their profile on this website.

Christine,

You are 100% correct in all you say. I think a lot of photographers just get frustrated when they see so many models with good potential that seem to be throwing it away. Yes, there are all kinds of interest levels and motivations, but there seems to also be an awful lot of simple cluelessness.

I know years ago when I got first Internet and email and joined an online forum, I did not know how to recognize the difference between a PM and a public post, so I was replying publicly to PMs and was offending people. Luckily a kind soul educated me and I changed that behavior. But the point is it may have taken me a LONG time (if ever) to figure that out on my own, so I am grateful to have gotten that kick in the rear.

When we see new models who are maybe legal adults but likely have little real world experience it seems like we only have two choices - let them sink or swim or send them a message and get accused of being a white knight. Perhaps we can find a better way.

We just shake our head when we see new profiles like this one near to me: 18 y/o, some experience, paid shoots only with 2 hour minimum, lists nudes and erotic genras but wants them to only be for private use due to her future aspirations, will always bring an escort, AND wants shared ownership. WHAT THE HELL? Pay to shoot, keep them private so I can't use them in my portfolio and share ownership to boot? Only the worst of GWCs are going to consider that.

The thing is, those parameters got into her head somehow and unless SOMEONE is willing to step up and let her know that those restrictions have certain consequences, she is likely to stay clueless for a long time, wonder why she is not getting any work (or only offers for private porn), and eventually fall off the MM map as so many do.

Rather than everyone getting huffy over a photographer with good intentions, why don't we brainstorm ways to educate new MM members (because cluelessness can happen with photographers too)? Rather than *hoping* folks will read the pinned topics for newbies, can there be a way to have them at least check a box to state that they have read some basic information? (Then, what they do with the info is up to them)

The few that happen to introduce themselves on the newbie forum sometimes get sent something like this message that I saw:
"Read this: https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=18926
This: https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=117121
This: https://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=575330
This: http://www.dekilah.com/2012/05/31/dekil … mm-models/
And this: www.newmodels.com

Network:
Here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/casting/search_casting
Here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/browse
Here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/announce
and here: https://www.modelmayhem.com/f.php"

I know it is not possible, but I would love to have those kinds of topics be required reading before a profile is approved. You are not going to eliminate all people who don't care or are not motivated, but maybe if IB was at least more proactive in getting basic information out to new members there would be fewer dropouts, less aggravation among all parties and less tendency for white knighting.

JadeDRed wrote:

But our target market is never *all* photographers. I get the impression generally that most forum rants are from photographers are from the sort of guys who don't hire models much anyway. Some of them seem to have barely shot at all in years instead just posting rants on to forums.

In the end rather than industry advice most of these sorts of posts are one photographer whining about how all models won't cater solely to his personal demands. Of course he will say that he spoke to a couple of his friends and they all agree so clearly that is what the market wants.

The fact that the models working in that market apparently don't understand this when someone who has never even attempted to model let alone successfully can clearly see it means, obviously, that models are beyond stupid, it can't possibly be the photographer who is wrong.

These posts also are almost always advising models not to charge/to charge less, a little self serving dontcha think? Some might think this "helpful" advice has ulterior motives, but some are cynical.

To summarise, telling us what you want *could* be relevant, but trying to dress that up as helpful advice (especially when that advice is pretty much always; charge less, wear less, give us more) representative of the entire market of photographers is dishonest and a load of old bollocks.

so let me get this straight:

your theory is that my hidden agenda is to get models in los angeles with lousy portfolios to pose naked for me for free, and rather than contact the models i'm interested in directly, i thought the best way to accomplish my goal was to create a post reminding models all over the world that their portfolio is like their ad campaign.

wow - you saw right through me   

howard r wrote:

so let me get this straight:

your theory is that my hidden agenda is to get models in los angeles with lousy portfolios to pose naked for me for free, and rather than contact the models i'm interested in directly, i thought the best way to accomplish my goal was to create a post reminding models all over the world that their portfolio is like their ad campaign.

wow - you saw right through me   

Hey I said most, if you identify with that that's your business.

I just know I take 'advice' from photographers with a grain of salt. Even those who do have the experience and lack of bias to offer something useful can usually only speak for a particular sector of work which won't apply everywhere else.

Brian C Frank wrote:
Actually I agree with the OP...

First off even if this has been posted a million times before, who cares? It's a good critique and if you've seen it before then just ignore it. No need to rudely tear him a new ass hole just because he was offering up some advice.

And even if MM is a "playground" it still helps people work into a profession, so why not do your best to be PROFESSIONAL. You never know who's going to spot your talent and where

So yes. I agree with the OP. Competition is everywhere so why not stand above it?..

So I appreciate your post thanks

thank you brian. my post was so simple and well-intentioned, and you seem to be the only one who wasn't determined to make it something that it wasn't.

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the models what they should be doing in the Model Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

i remember that fellow!

Art of the nude wrote:

Drew Smith Photography wrote:
Hmm, these 'telling the models what they should be doing in the Model Forum' posts don't seem to have the same quality as the golden age we experienced in the not too distant past.

I forget the photographer's name (his avi was a camera in the snow) but he'd pop up regularly with an OP with some title or other like:

'Models - don't get fake boobs' and 'Models - get a tan you're all too pale'.

*Sigh - the good old days.

Was that the same one who ranted against BW avatars?

it was! lol.

howard r wrote:
WARNING: "The following post contains well-meaning advice and due to its content it should not be read by anyone."

your portfolio is like your resume and ad campaign rolled up into one. it shows the world what you're capable of, it proves your level of commitment, and it establishes what level of photographers have chosen to work with you.

i know there are many models on this site who feel that they've paid their dues after a dozen or so shoots - but demanding "paid work only" when you have a weak, unfinished (or even dated) portfolio is counter productive. it's like launching your product (the product being "you") with a second-rate ad campaign because you resent the idea that you should have to go to the trouble of putting together a first-rate campaign.

the biggest problem with that way of thinking? some of your competitors are going to the trouble.

just my two cents . . .

To add to this...

I'm not sure why models, if they are serious, don't just go out and pay someone (it's not like it's unaffordable), and get a set of good to great images within a month. From there they are mostly set, can be more picky about trade work here, and may even take on a few paid shoots with some photographers and be really selective about testing. But to waste a bunch of time "testing up" is just beyond me - and maybe it's just me getting older now.

I'm also not sure why models test with bad photographers or feel like they would need to shoot with them. It's not like passing up a shoot with someone is going to prevent them from working in town again (testing or paid), and it's not like bad photos help them at all in the long run.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

IDiivil wrote:
There are many ways a model may educate him or herself on this website and through Google already.

To assume and "lend a hand" that isn't asked for is crossing lines, in my humble opinion.

let me ask you, if a model posted an item saying "photographers, remember to play music for models because in my experience, it really helps us relax" - would you write in and tell her she was crossing the line?

would you condone photographers leaving comments like "oh great. just what the world needs - another effin' model telling me how to run my studio!"?

howard r wrote:
let me ask you, if a model posted an item saying "photographers, remember to play music for models because in my experience, it really helps us relax" - would you write in and tell her she was crossing the line?

would you condone photographers leaving comments like "oh great. just what the world needs - another effin' model telling me how to run my studio!"?

If a model wrote you out of the blue and told you that your studio isn't as comfortable without music, and that you better get some dang music if you want to be taken seriously as a photographer and won't get good models otherwise...

Would you really respond in a calm, thankful way to that kind of message? I am willing to bet huge bucks that if someone started something like that in the photography forums, they'd be chewed out.


"Hey, I know you didn't ask and we've never worked together and we will (probably) never work together, but here's what I think you should do with your work/studio/goals/etc because what a bunch of you are doing now is totally not the best for your goals and silly"
- ... without knowledge of that person's said goals. The above is the impression that unsolicited advice can give off ... and is most likely why a ton of models here are REALLY unhappy about what's being said.


Why not just let everyone do their own thing?

Koryn Locke wrote:
Keep in mind that "paid only" doesn't always mean that. We get a tremendous shit-ton of offers for crappy, not beneficial TF shoots. Established, skilled models receive even more offers for pointless trade, than do newbies, because it's harder to find quality trade opportunities after you've been shooting awhile.

When you imply in your profile that you ONLY want to be paid, a fair portion of the obviously crappy offers drop off, because some of the people who would otherwise message you for TF see that you have *some* sense of selectiveness. It will at least eliminate some of the worst of the worst. You still get offers for trade, which might or might not interest you, and you always have the option of doing what I do - which is browsing portfolios and shopping around for people to trade with, and making those initial contacts.

Saying you don't trade doesn't actually mean you don't trade. It means you're sick of wading through an inbox swamp of TF queries from people whose work is so obviously outside of your own interest/need range, that just looking at it makes you want to dig your own eyes out.

I was going for a different point of view, and it would have had a bunch of models with pitchforks chasing after me. Probably about the only way i will get a bunch of models chasing after me.

However to back your comment, some of my best trade sessions have been with models who make a living modeling, and have PAID ONLY carefully selected and on their profile.

And love the "want to dig your own eyes out".

IDiivil wrote:
snip

Such a statement does not take into account all the various goals and intentions people have with their profile on this website.

I have noticed several of your posts.

Are you trying to get a reputation for being rational, reasonable and well thought out?

Damn, you seem to be succeeding.

howard r wrote:
let me ask you, if a model posted an item saying "photographers, remember to play music for models because in my experience, it really helps us relax" - would you write in and tell her she was crossing the line?

would you condone photographers leaving comments like "oh great. just what the world needs - another effin' model telling me how to run my studio!"?

Actually Howard, that is pretty much exactly how it plays out in the forums, especially if someone in one specialty goes into the forum for the other specialty and gives out unsolicited advice, as if it is some nugget of wisdom that has never been considered previously and assuming that they are doing folks a favor by sharing their opinion.

While it may be rationalized as well intentioned, that is NOT how it comes across.

Whether it is photographers going into the model forum, or models going in to the photographer forum, or models/photographers going into the hair/makeup forum, it is as if going onto someone else's turf uninvited and saying "Hey yall, I've never been here and yall don't know me, but I thought I'd come in here and share my wisdom with you."

That sort of thing is just does not go over well, period, and after years of it happening on a regular basis, you're not going to be treated with kid-gloves.

You may feel that isn't fair, but I suspect that if I walked into your studio and started giving you unsolicited advice, I suspect your first response would not be to take out a note pad and start writing down my thoughts.

Add to that the reality that so many photographers routinely talk down to models, it should be expected that there is not going to be a positive response, even if intended simply as helpful advice.

My unsolicited advice, apologize, chalk it up to a well intended miscalculation on your part and let the thread die/hope the thread dies.

Herman Surkis wrote:

I have noticed several of your posts.

Are you trying to get a reputation for being rational, reasonable and well thought out?

Damn, you seem to be succeeding.

Haha, thank you... I try.

howard r wrote:

thank you brian. my post was so simple and well-intentioned, and you seem to be the only one who wasn't determined to make it something that it wasn't.

To be honest I think most people on here argue just for the sake of arguing.. Good luck with this thread though! I'm ducking out before anyone feels the need to turn their guns on me for being logical lol

howard r wrote:
look anna - i get that mocking people is a bloodsport in these forums. i know it's just a matter of time before some smug-ass loser gets a hard-on being the first one to post the knight cartoon (wow - original and clever!).

i knew all this before i posted but i posted in spite of that. i posted because every day i see interesting models with mediocre portfolios which completely undersell their potential talent, and yet they they say "paid only".

i think that's trap they fall in because they don't want to be "exploited" by working for free, but in the end, it only hurts them.

you have a strong portfolio (you're welcome) so obviously my advice doesn't apply to you. it was never intended for you. but a new model reading this might be inspired to take their portfolio a little more seriously, and that would be a good thing. not for me, not for you, but for them.

so maybe next time you can cool it with the sarcasm . . . or not.

cheers,

howard

WOW! I thought your first post was condescending, but now you're on a roll.

You may have had your heart in the right place, but do you really think your post will reach your target? Most of the people who fit your description probably are not spending time in the forums to pick up this advice. Often they create a profile, do a few shoots and then leave.

The reason why the forums often appear to be a "blood sport" is because people come in and preach to the converted.

Harsh I know, but that is the reality.

Darren Brade wrote:

WOW! I thought your first post was condescending, but now you're on a roll.

You may have had your heart in the right place, but do you really think your post will reach your target? Most of the people who fit your description probably are not spending time in the forums to pick up this advice. Often they create a profile, do a few shoots and then leave.

The reason why the forums often appear to be a "blood sport" is because people come in and preach to the converted.

Harsh I know, but that is the reality.

Bingo.

howard r wrote:
WARNING: "The following post contains well-meaning advice and due to its content it should not be read by anyone."

xD

P I X I E wrote:
Not following the forums is barely an excuse IMO. You could have just used the Search tool. Voilà.

I'm tired of photographers posting in here thinking they'll be the ones to make a "difference" and being preachy.

actually i did do a search with "portfolio ad campaign" and there were zero posts.

that means i was offering at least a somewhat original perspective.

did you do a similar search before you commented?

IDiivil wrote:

If a model wrote you out of the blue and told you that your studio isn't as comfortable without music, and that you better get some dang music if you want to be taken seriously as a photographer and won't get good models otherwise...

Would you really respond in a calm, thankful way to that kind of message? I am willing to bet huge bucks that if someone started something like that in the photography forums, they'd be chewed out.


"Hey, I know you didn't ask and we've never worked together and we will (probably) never work together, but here's what I think you should do with your work/studio/goals/etc because what a bunch of you are doing now is totally not the best for your goals and silly"
- ... without knowledge of that person's said goals. The above is the impression that unsolicited advice can give off ... and is most likely why a ton of models here are REALLY unhappy about what's being said.


Why not just let everyone do their own thing?

while i appreciate your thoughtful tone throughout this discussion, i asked you the 2 questions i asked because that was the closest to my situation, only in reverse (model making an innocent suggestion to photographers via the forum).

love to hear your response to those two questions

howard r wrote:

while i appreciate your thoughtful tone throughout this discussion, i asked you the 2 questions i asked because that was the closest to my situation, only in reverse (model making an innocent suggestion to photographers via the forum).

love to hear your response to those two questions

Oh, please.

That's not the other side to what you've written at all. Add in the condescending parts you have in the OP here.

Let me try:
"Photographers, remember to play music for models because in my experience, it really helps us relax. It shows that you're committed to making the model more comfortable and having a better shoot.

I know there are many photographers on this site who feel that they don't need to listen to advice from a model or go out of their way for a trade shoot, but it shows in your work. That's why you have a weak or even unfinished portfolio because if your model is uncomfortable because you refuse to play some music, sometimes you won't get any good images at all. It's counter productive.

If you don't play music, it shows that you have no regard for the model's wants and she will choose to work with other people."


So, if your question was written how you just wrote it, yes, I think it would be fine. Once you add in the overall critiquing of "many (other profession)" in an unsolicited thread of advice, it becomes a "crossing the line."

howard r wrote:
actually i did do a search with "portfolio ad campaign" and there were zero posts.

that means i was offering at least a somewhat original perspective.

did you do a similar search before you commented?

so, now you don't believe us models when we say we get "advice" threads like this regularly? (and no, maybe none that used to words "ad campaign". good for you)

Anna Adrielle wrote:

so, now you don't believe us models when we say we get "advice" threads like this regularly? (and no, maybe none that used to words "ad campaign". good for you)

Right. Who the hell thinks that "ad campaign" is a regularly-used phrase, in terms of advice threads?

Are we allowed to say "hell" in this forum? o.O

Anna Adrielle wrote:

so, now you don't believe us models when we say we get "advice" threads like this regularly? (and no, maybe none that used to words "ad campaign". good for you)

anna - my comment was addressed to pixie's comment, which faulted me for not using the search tool before i dared to post a suggestion that had already been made a hundred times.

i did check to see if anyone had compared a portfolio to an ad campaign, and no one had.

that's the only point i was making with this comment. sorry you had a problem with it.