Leonard Gee Photography wrote:

Waste of time unless you go into teaching or academics.

Art Center College of Design, Pasadena. The joke is, if you graduate, you're no good. If you're good, you get out by the end of the junior year. Expensively good.

Brooks, Santa Barbara, going downhill, but maybe still worth it.

Really? That's odd. There's a member on here who graduated from Art Center College of Design. She is working full time and making decent money.

Legacys 7 wrote:
Really? That's odd. There's a member on here who graduated from Art Center College of Design. She is working full time and making decent money.

I wonder what percentage of the students of the Art Center College of Design actually succeed in a photographic career?

I went to a School in London. I dropped after the first semester. I know of only one other student in my year that was published in a "real" fashion magazine or main stream magazine. He got the hell out a week or so after me..

That said I'm not saying that these two cases make a rule.

At the same time a success story from Art Center does not mean that it was because of the school. It's more about tenacity in or out of school.

Fred Greissing wrote:
A degree in photography is pretty much worthless in the real world of fashion and commercial photography.

Really;
Bob Carlos Clarke ... studied at the LCP.
Rolph Gobits ....  Art College.

E H wrote:
If you can,,YES, do it. You think you know photography now,, wait till you get your degree. you will see and understand light, what you can and can't do,why things are the way they are, etc. The only way to know some of it, is to be taught you will not find it online. Research all the schools you can and who teaching what.

This is wonderful advice, the degree is not that important but the training and knowledge you would receive is invaluable. You won't find anything close to this kind of training from the workshops on this site. I spent 1 year in a trade school and 3 years as an assistant in a large commercial studio. I was offered a position as a photographer when I left to go out on my own but turned it down. Years later I regretted that, there was still much I needed to learn and the real pros were there to teach me.

Fred Greissing wrote:
I wonder what percentage of the students of the Art Center College of Design actually succeed in a photographic career?

I went to a School in London. I dropped after the first semester. I know of only one other student in my year that was published in a "real" fashion magazine or main stream magazine. He got the hell out a week or so after me..

That said I'm not saying that these two cases make a rule.

At the same time a success story from Art Center does not mean that it was because of the school. It's more about tenacity in or out of school.

Point was missed. My reply was to the person who stated that no one coming out of that school was successful. What percentage of students coming out of that school with a successful career,  that I can't tell. But what I do know is, it's both speculation and an assumption to assume that most or none haven't.  Your last point regarding the photographer and not the school applies to every college career major. But it it's both the education and hard work that get the results.  Also. Art schools education vary from school to school.

Fred Greissing wrote:
A degree in photography is pretty much worthless in the real world of fashion and commercial photography.

In 30 years plus of working in Europe and the US no one has asked me if I have a degree in photography.

The only place where you will be asked for a degree is in academia.... and for obvious reasons. They "peddle" degrees so they require them in order to give the degrees credibility.

Some say that a degree will help you find employment by some company....

One needs to ask what full time photography jobs are there that employ photographers? Sears portraits??? And what is the pay?
Real Estate photo services? Sure but they pay minimum wage and only if you have a car and gear. Try paying off $ 52,000 in debt with that.

Big commercial photography studios with several employed photographers are largely a thing of the past as the amount of photography needed today is not what it was in the past.. Video and stock changed that .

As for finding work as an assistant a degree is even counter productive. Most photographers prefer an assistant that does not think he or she knows it all.
The best assistants I have had did not have a photographic education and took instructions well from me and others they may have freelanced with on the side
often referred by me.

I have also lectured in several schools and given talks at professional associations.
Nearly all the schools were quite off track as to the reality of working at the time.
The only school was far more realistic was one that was based inside a huge rental studio complex and part owned by the directors of two leading Milan fashion magazines. It was also less expensive than degrees in private schools.

Again this is equating the final piece of paper with what, if any, doors it opens.  Sure you are not going to work as an art buyer, art director, or a teacher without one.  But if its a decent school and actually teaches something then this is simply looking at the wrong equation.

Many current successful photographers went to school and interned or assisted.  As you pointed out those large studios are rare now, so the education is even more important.

R Bruce Duncan wrote:
I guess passion--and inclination--have a huge effect on the outcome of any of our endeavors.

Anyway, the Art Center graduate I was referring to is Jeff Zwart.

He was an auto--specifically Porsche--enthusiast before he became a professional photographer.  Began shooting Road & Track covers right out of Art Center.

Here's his Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Zwart

Check out his client list?

Like I said, I expect this is way bigger money than anything fashion?

And… the boy can drive.

This video is way too much fun:

http://youtu.be/Tc5ucDzFPAk

Too bad he wasn't driving Paul Walker's car.

RBD

Edited to add:  Feel free to turn up the audio on the video.  It's a symphony.

I completely agree.... and yes he can drive! holly shit!

Fred Greissing wrote:
A degree in photography is pretty much worthless in the real world of fashion and commercial photography.

In 30 years plus of working in Europe and the US no one has asked me if I have a degree in photography.

The only place where you will be asked for a degree is in academia.... and for obvious reasons. They "peddle" degrees so they require them in order to give the degrees credibility.

Some say that a degree will help you find employment by some company....

One needs to ask what full time photography jobs are there that employ photographers? Sears portraits??? And what is the pay?
Real Estate photo services? Sure but they pay minimum wage and only if you have a car and gear. Try paying off $ 52,000 in debt with that.

Big commercial photography studios with several employed photographers are largely a thing of the past as the amount of photography needed today is not what it was in the past.. Video and stock changed that .

As for finding work as an assistant a degree is even counter productive. Most photographers prefer an assistant that does not think he or she knows it all.
The best assistants I have had did not have a photographic education and took instructions well from me and others they may have freelanced with on the side
often referred by me.

I have also lectured in several schools and given talks at professional associations.
Nearly all the schools were quite off track as to the reality of working at the time.
The only school was far more realistic was one that was based inside a huge rental studio complex and part owned by the directors of two leading Milan fashion magazines. It was also less expensive than degrees in private schools.

I feel you on most things but getting an education is never a bad idea. Too many photographers end up on skid row after a good run making decent cash.

My personal view is to compare the quality of the program to ensure that there is a useful component that is transferable to things other than holding a camera.

As a side note: When I was in school every kid wanted to be a rapper or sports star. A lawyer who was giving a lecture told my class that you had a better chance of getting into law school and becoming a lawyer than ever getting drafted into the NBA. I took his advice and lot's of the skills that education gave me is directly transferable to photography and other for-profit projects I'm involved in.

Paying $50K though...hell no. The camera they provide better be plated with gold.

Fred Greissing wrote:
One needs to ask what full time photography jobs are there that employ photographers? Sears portraits??? And what is the pay?
Real Estate photo services? Sure but they pay minimum wage and only if you have a car and gear. Try paying off $ 52,000 in debt with that.

Big commercial photography studios with several employed photographers are largely a thing of the past as the amount of photography needed today is not what it was in the past.. Video and stock changed that .

there are tons of small businesses who need professional photographers, options are not limited....and also sears and real estate is more than min wage; but money is money, if you need a job and love photography, why not.

Jana wrote:

there are tons of small businesses who need professional photographers, options are not limited....and also sears and real estate is more than min wage; but money is money, if you need a job and love photography, why not.

Well Fred is right, the amount of photography needed today has changed.  In 1970 an estimated 10 billion photos were take per year worldwide, in 2013 it was 340 billion.  The Interent has created a greater than exponential increase in the need in images

vsfotografi wrote:
Do "you" think pursuing a degree in photography is a "must"? What are the pros/cons--in your opinion?

A "must" -- no, it's not.

Pros:
...  A good teacher will challenge you better than you will on your own.
...  A good course will organize all the technical stuff you need to learn.
...  A good teacher can give good, constructive feedback (as opposed
     to the poor quality critiques you get on in the Critique forum).
...  A good course will move you away from your comfort zone.

Cons:
...  Many people here think "self taught" is a badge of honor.
...  Courses take time, effort, and money.
...  Not all courses & not all teachers are "good".
...  Some people just don't want to be challenged.
...  Not all people are good students.


In my case, I did take a couple of classes in college and a handful of good workshops afterwards.  I also excelled in graduate school and am more capable than most at challenging myself.  Still, I leaned a hecka lot in those classes & workshops -- stuff I probably would have never learned on my own.

Fred Greissing wrote:
One needs to ask what full time photography jobs are there that employ photographers? Sears portraits??? And what is the pay?
Real Estate photo services? Sure but they pay minimum wage and only if you have a car and gear. Try paying off $ 52,000 in debt with that.
.

hm, from the look of it you seem to have done all right for yourself fred, why be so negative?

Thomas Andreas wrote:
it's what's in your port followed by your level of networking skills that count in this line of work. Spending your resources in a degree will most likely kill some, if not all, enthusiasm that you have at this point and after you get the degree you are back at 0.

And you based this on what? That's not true at all. For many of us, the education has done the opposite. The real bottom line here is going to depend on what your goals are. I often wonder while I read the replies on here, do many of the naysayers actually attended school? Or is it based on speculation. Education, school, student, what their goals are etc is going to play a role in a successful student/artist.

Leonard Gee Photography wrote:
The degree maybe worthless. The education maybe worthless or it maybe priceless.

As far as Art Center goes, it is one of the best in the country. Some of the best professionals and best teacher are there. It's a very non-traditional school. According to their stats, approximately 1/3 of the beginning class will drop out after the first trimester. Only about 1/3 of them will make it to graduation.

Students come from all over the world to attend. We had students from South America, Europe, Japan, Canada and all over the US. The first trimester is a trial by fire. Not only do you take photography, but beginning design, color and drawing. The work load is huge and competitive like mad. That is how you learn.

The school has a big rep in LA. Looking for job got you noticed before anyone else. I was assisting for Dick Richards on Polaroid and Coke ads, Marshall Lefferts on Toyota. It opened many doors to ad agencies. They now include business classes.

It's an inside joke. Obviously typical MM fashion some people didn't read it right.

You basically described the school that I'd attended here. I still have 12 classes left. But to me, it is worth it. I was doing photography way before the school move. BUT, I didn't have the versatility before school. I've shot pretty much every damn thing that you can think both in commercial, fine arts etc. Product, still life, fashion, cars, business classes etc etc. And, like you'd pointed out. We have to do more than photography. We have liberal art classes that we're obligated to take. Art History, photography history, design, color, painting etc.

I tell you what. That first year actually does determine who will drop out and who will go on. It can be very demanding. Especially during mid terms and finals. And sometimes you're going to get Art Directors coming both looking at your work and telling you what they look for and don't look for. Spring shows are also a bonus. Companies from all over come to look at your work with the goal to hire you, if your work is good. I've met students from all over the planet at my school. And I've been fortunate to have met some well known photographers. When you get Joyce Tenneson and Matthew Jordan Smith for example at your school giving lectures, it speaks volumes.

Carlo P Mk2 wrote:
Try community colleges if you want an actual degree on paper.

If you want an edge in the market, I think there are better ways to spend $52k.

A degree will get you an entry-level job.

This, take basic classes in photography at local community college, also digital editing courses, then build a presentable portfolio on line and actual book portfolio, invest your hard earned money in gear !

                                                 Best wishes, Paulie/ PDF IMAGES

Fred Ackerman wrote:
snip - A college degree today is even necessary to be a receptionist, times are a changing!

That's a bit of stretch! No!

A degree for something more technical sure but not for answering phones.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:

That's a bit of stretch! No!

A degree for something more technical sure but not for answering phones.

Piece in the New York Times not long ago said that was becoming the new 'normal', I was surprised. Yet even in my own family I see many with Master's and PHD's, a simple four year degree for some jobs is not enough.

Legacys 7 wrote:

And you based this on what? That's not true at all. For many of us, the education has done the opposite. The real bottom line here is going to depend on what your goals are. I often wonder while I read the replies on here, do many of the naysayers actually attended school? Or is it based on speculation. Education, school, student, what their goals are etc is going to play a role in a successful student/artist.

If we where in an private discussion I'd tell you that an art cannot be learned. Techniques, yes, in many ways (most of them without a degree, all modern photography theory exists in youtube, blogs and forums), instead art is shaped in the here and now for the future, not something that is aimed or planned.

As for degrees. Any kind of degree will make the same person better, than the same person would be without a degree. Education is important as it gives one a system under which one can think. But what's actually important is to realize that education is that (a thinking system) and it does not really affect the practicing part of anything. Scalping a mind into accepting new thinking systems is what higher education really does. But it wouldn't make a difference to a photographer if he/she would have a degree in photography or a degree in agriculture or business as I've seen all these degrees turn into some great photographers, full of skill.

The final goal for everyone is to sleep well at nights.

AJScalzitti wrote:
Again this is equating the final piece of paper with what, if any, doors it opens.  Sure you are not going to work as an art buyer, art director, or a teacher without one.

My wife has no college degree, but worked as an art director for several international advertising agencies. Her clients included leading grocery chains (international), italian furniture manufacturers, cosmetics lo list a few...