mtoconnor98 wrote:
... is this typical when you are new to modeling?

Any thoughts?

It is typical to that agency.

If you do not like the offer, say you think the price is too high for printed cards or you'd prefer to go on account against future earnings you can always go to other agencies and sign with the one that offers you the best terms.

J Jessica wrote:
$500, eh?

Anyone can make and print comp cards with an editing program and Walmart 1-hour service.
:3

Not really. Actual printing then as a comp card (some heavy stock, c2s, coated two sides) runs around $70ish for 250 cards. Plus the time spent choosing the images and laying them out.

Sure, its not $500, but its not really cheap either.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

mtoconnor98 wrote:
I am new to modeling and was wondering if this is typical? I went to an open call and then they called me back offering a contract. They are giving me an option to use other photographers. However, comp cards, (collateral its called) its an additional 500. I called the main office in LA she said they do this with their models, however they create them an account. The affiliates director said this is typical and the PA office does this as well. I do know Wilhelmina licenses its name out, but still, is this typical when you are new to modeling?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

I'm sure there are some agencies in your area that have been around forever and are local. I'm just leery of any that opens up these days with a licensed name.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

mtoconnor98 wrote:
I am new to modeling and was wondering if this is typical? I went to an open call and then they called me back offering a contract. They are giving me an option to use other photographers. However, comp cards, (collateral its called) its an additional 500. I called the main office in LA she said they do this with their models, however they create them an account. The affiliates director said this is typical and the PA office does this as well. I do know Wilhelmina licenses its name out, but still, is this typical when you are new to modeling?

Any thoughts?

Thanks

Printing comp-cards cost you at most $75 bucks.

photoscanonline.com

J Jessica wrote:
$500, eh?

Anyone can make and print comp cards with an editing program and Walmart 1-hour service.
:3

Walmart doesn't print compcards. Compcards are not printed on photo paper but on thick cardstock

AJScalzitti wrote:
Yes the well know scam agency with tons of BBB complaints in PA does the same thing, I can assure you the NYC agency does not.

There are still a few craptastic folks who have a license from them but thankfully they have weeded out most of them.  It's much more difficult now to license the name for any newer agencies.

So then this is not typical? meaning that I should not be paying this much

James Jackson Fashion wrote:

It is typical to that agency.

If you do not like the offer, say you think the price is too high for printed cards or you'd prefer to go on account against future earnings you can always go to other agencies and sign with the one that offers you the best terms.

Do you think it is worth it? because Wilhelmina is an international company..

mtoconnor98 wrote:

Do you think it is worth it? because Wilhelmina is an international company..

You might wanna talk to some of the other models who are with them. I haven't heard good thins about the Denver one.

AJScalzitti wrote:
...I can assure you the NYC agency does not...

QFT... Wilhelmina in NYC is the real thing... albeit they license franchises (think McDonald's here) in a number of minor markets... Have collaborated with a dozen or so models who have paid MODELOGIC [WILHELMINA] Richmond $1300 to sign... for this they get a day's shoot for imagery that meets MODELOGIC [WILHELMINA] criteria... I have to remain silent as stage mom's extoll how their 16 year old "model" is agency represented... a.k.a. mommy bought into MODELOGIC [WILHELMINA] so her daughter could have the moniker of Agency Model 

The sad truth is these franchises actually do have seriously good talent on their books albeit they sign WAY too many naive prospects with the promise of paid work, which btw never seems to come... 

To the OP, you might invest a lit' more effort on your Mayhem BIO... prospects actually read these...

All the best on your journey...

mtoconnor98 wrote:

Do you think it is worth it? because Wilhelmina is an international company..

Its a scam..
Also Denver? Not much of a market there......

AJScalzitti wrote:
...I can assure you the NYC agency does not...

ArtistryImage wrote:
The sad truth is these franchises actually do have seriously good talent on their books albeit they sign WAY too many naive prospects with the promise of paid work, which btw never seems to come...

Philipe wrote:
Its a scam..
Also Denver? Not much of a market there......

And it is by charging fees that they are able to do just this.

I think there is a general misconception that models never pay fees for development - this is not true.  All models with big agencies pay.  The difference is the fees are fronted by the agency, so the model does not pay upfront out of his or her pocket.  However, those fees are kept in a ledger and are deducted against future earnings.

Comp cards?  Goes on the ledger.  Paid photographer? Goes on the ledger.  Staying in a model apartment (usually owned by the agency in a larger market, and rented at a higher than market rate)?  Goes on the ledger.  Travel?  Goes on the ledger. Courier fees?  Goes on the ledger. Never get booked, you're still on the hook... 

As a result, an agency is careful to only sign talent that they feel will be able to, at the very least, recoup their investment (while also making themselves a tidy little profit), otherwise the agency loses the money that they fronted to the model (even though the model is contractually obligated to repay his or her "debt", the agency knows you can't get blood from a stone).

By making the models pay upfront, the agency mitigates its risk when signing new talent, after all, should the model never get booked, it costs the agency nothing.  It isn't necessarily a scam, but it is a deviation from the more traditional course of operating.  Of course, under the traditional model, most talent would never get signed (which is probably a better thing all around).

To the OP,

If the agency does not have enough faith to credit your account against future earnings, that may be a signal that they don't feel they can get you enough work to warrant the advance.  I would ask them about that specifically.  After all, if they can't recoup the investment, you likely will not be able to either.

A-M-P wrote:

Walmart doesn't print compcards. Compcards are not printed on photo paper but on thick cardstock

I've printed 4x6" self-made collages of my photos at Walmart.
That is what I would call a 'comp card', although it may not be proper.

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

And it is by charging fees that they are able to do just this.

I think there is a general misconception that models never pay fees for development - this is not true.  All models with big agencies pay.  The difference is, most of the time the fees are fronted by the agency, so the model does not pay upfront out of his or her pocket.  However, those fees are kept in a ledger and are deducted against future earnings.

Comp cards?  Goes on the ledger.  Paid photographer? Goes on the ledger.  Staying in a model apartment (usually owned by the agency in a larger market, and rented at a higher than market rate)?  Goes on the ledger.  Travel?  Goes on the ledger. Courier fees?  Goes on the ledger. Never get booked, you're still on the hook... 

As a result, an agency is careful to only sign talent that they feel will be able to, at the very least, recoup their investment (while also making themselves a tidy little profit), otherwise the agency loses the money that they fronted to the model (even though the model is contractually obligated to repay her "debt", the agency knows you can't get blood from a stone).

By making the models pay upfront, the agency mitigates its risk when signing new talent, after all, should the model never get booked, it costs the agency nothing.  It isn't necessarily a scam, but it is a deviation from the more traditional course of operating.  Of course, under the traditional model, most talent would never get signed (which is probably a better thing all around).

To the OP,

If the agency does not have enough faith to credit your account against future earnings, that may be a signal that they don't feel they can get you enough work to warrant the advance.  I would ask them about that specifically.  After all, if they can't recoup the investment, you likely will not be able to either.

that makes sense! thanks.

Marin Photography NYC wrote:
Many agencies charge for comp cards even here in NYC.  It's not a scam. Not everything will be given away for free. Some agencies take it all out of your pay. You are still paying for it either way. 

If they get you work, it's all worth it.
.

Some very legit agencies charge up front here, a few don't, it just depends. The ones that charrge aren't scams, although we do have our share of scammy ones in town.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

AJScalzitti wrote:
...I can assure you the NYC agency does not...

ArtistryImage wrote:
The sad truth is these franchises actually do have seriously good talent on their books albeit they sign WAY too many naive prospects with the promise of paid work, which btw never seems to come...

And it is by charging fees that they are able to do just this.

I think there is a general misconception that models never pay fees for development - this is not true.  All models with big agencies pay.  The difference is the fees are fronted by the agency, so the model does not pay upfront out of his or her pocket.  However, those fees are kept in a ledger and are deducted against future earnings.

Comp cards?  Goes on the ledger.  Paid photographer? Goes on the ledger.  Staying in a model apartment (usually owned by the agency in a larger market, and rented at a higher than market rate)?  Goes on the ledger.  Travel?  Goes on the ledger. Courier fees?  Goes on the ledger. Never get booked, you're still on the hook... 

As a result, an agency is careful to only sign talent that they feel will be able to, at the very least, recoup their investment (while also making themselves a tidy little profit), otherwise the agency loses the money that they fronted to the model (even though the model is contractually obligated to repay his or her "debt", the agency knows you can't get blood from a stone).

By making the models pay upfront, the agency mitigates its risk when signing new talent, after all, should the model never get booked, it costs the agency nothing.  It isn't necessarily a scam, but it is a deviation from the more traditional course of operating.  Of course, under the traditional model, most talent would never get signed (which is probably a better thing all around).

To the OP,

If the agency does not have enough faith to credit your account against future earnings, that may be a signal that they don't feel they can get you enough work to warrant the advance.  I would ask them about that specifically.  After all, if they can't recoup the investment, you likely will not be able to either.

Your talking about a generalization.
I'm speaking about the OP, he is being scammed..
Spending money on pictures and comp cards will not get him work unless he has a very strong look.. he spends money, he gets no work, the agency made at least money off him making him comp cards... If you think it cost the agency a lot of money to make comp cards..(no) Some have their own connection and some make them in house..
Its a business (that has been around for years) and like with any business they will find the smart way to do things..
Also as far as comp cards..
I've worked with model who have given me comp card that have just color copies.
Even when casting... From L.A. model, Next and elite.. Especially with busy models that run out of comp cards..

They know the OP wants to model, they think, we'll make money off by him by charging him for comp cards.. etc...

The OP is going to spend money and just like barbizon you can at least look like a model.... (but not actually model..)
But you will have some cool comp cards to give to friends....

mtoconnor98 wrote:
Do you think it is worth it? because Wilhelmina is an international company..

Many moons ago Wilhelmina was a well known and trusted brand.  Then they started licensing out the name to other entities including a few known scammers. 

The first of the big name scammers that they licensed their name to had a string of names before, including Emodels, Studio 58, Trans Continental Talent, TCT, Options Talent, Wilhelmina Scouting Network (WSN), and then Web Style Network.  The owner of that company, Lou Pearlman, is currently in prison mainly due to other frauds that he committed.  The owners of some of the other Wilhelmina branded companies probably should be, too.

So don't go by just the name, they let anyone who pays 'em a licensing fee use it.

Philipe wrote:

Your talking about a generalization.
I'm speaking about the OP, he is being scammed..
Spending money on pictures and comp cards will not get him work unless he has a very strong look.. he spends money, he gets no work, the agency made at least money off him making him comp cards... If you think it cost the agency a lot of money to make comp cards..(no) Some have their own connection and some make them in house..
Its a business (that has been around for years) and like with any business they will find the smart way to do things..
Also as far as comp cards..
I've worked with model who have given me comp card that have just color copies.
Even when casting... From L.A. model, Next and elite.. Especially with busy models that run out of comp cards..

They know the OP wants to model, they think, we'll make money off by him by charging him for comp cards.. etc...

The OP is going to spend money and just like barbizon you can at least look like a model.... (but not actually model..)
But you will have some cool comp cards to give to friends....

They are giving me the option to find an outside photographer to help get photos up on the website. Thoughts? Its still going to cost at least 500$ for collateral (Comps, etc) But if I do not find a potographer that shoots like they want I will probably have to use theirs.

mtoconnor98 wrote:

So then this is not typical? meaning that I should not be paying this much

No it's not typical.  In most cases you will end up spending your money on things like comp cards, promos, mailing etc.  but it usually itemized and a bit later in the process and ongoing over your career.  After all how can they print comp cards when you have not even gone on any tests (you may need to pay the photographers for that, directly).

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:

AJScalzitti wrote:
...I can assure you the NYC agency does not...

ArtistryImage wrote:
The sad truth is these franchises actually do have seriously good talent on their books albeit they sign WAY too many naive prospects with the promise of paid work, which btw never seems to come...

And it is by charging fees that they are able to do just this.

I think there is a general misconception that models never pay fees for development - this is not true.  All models with big agencies pay.  The difference is the fees are fronted by the agency, so the model does not pay upfront out of his or her pocket.  However, those fees are kept in a ledger and are deducted against future earnings.

Comp cards?  Goes on the ledger.  Paid photographer? Goes on the ledger.  Staying in a model apartment (usually owned by the agency in a larger market, and rented at a higher than market rate)?  Goes on the ledger.  Travel?  Goes on the ledger. Courier fees?  Goes on the ledger. Never get booked, you're still on the hook... 

As a result, an agency is careful to only sign talent that they feel will be able to, at the very least, recoup their investment (while also making themselves a tidy little profit), otherwise the agency loses the money that they fronted to the model (even though the model is contractually obligated to repay his or her "debt", the agency knows you can't get blood from a stone).

By making the models pay upfront, the agency mitigates its risk when signing new talent, after all, should the model never get booked, it costs the agency nothing.  It isn't necessarily a scam, but it is a deviation from the more traditional course of operating.  Of course, under the traditional model, most talent would never get signed (which is probably a better thing all around).

To the OP,

If the agency does not have enough faith to credit your account against future earnings, that may be a signal that they don't feel they can get you enough work to warrant the advance.  I would ask them about that specifically.  After all, if they can't recoup the investment, you likely will not be able to either.

Pay up front for what? Comp cards whiteout images?

Agencies will charge everything back to the model throughout their career.  They will send them on tests, the model pays the team directly.  They will order comp cards at some point, the model pays them.  They may send their book around, again the model pays that (or it's taken off earnings).  As you said, a model pays as they are freelancers.

A big up front fee for smoke up their tail pipe, no that is simply a scam.

mtoconnor98 wrote:

They are giving me the option to find an outside photographer to help get photos up on the website. Thoughts? Its still going to cost at least 500$ for collateral (Comps, etc) But if I do not find a potographer that shoots like they want I will probably have to use theirs.

What is it are you paying for? Comp cards?
You can make comp cards on line way cheaper, even here on model mayhem you can make comp cards..
Whats the money going to?
You said the 500.00 for collateral? Is this to be payed back through work?..
Its like they are already giving you a bill and nothing has happen..
Correction they are charging you up front..
What does not make sense is that they said you can use your own photographer, which says to me if you use their photographer, it would be more...
If they still charge you 500.00 either way...
Its like they don't care, they just want your money..
Its like, even if you use your own photographer, its 500.00........

Isis22 wrote:
I am frankly mystified how the OP's profile was even accepted on this website to begin with. One of his photos is just a composite of two others.

Well your judging.
IF they want money...and lot's of it...they will take anyone.
Plus...Ur Judging.

move along

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:

Well your judging.
IF they want money...and lot's of it...they will take anyone.
Plus...Ur Judging.

move along

I am stating a fact. Are you not aware of the rules?

Isis22 wrote:
I am frankly mystified how the OP's profile was even accepted on this website to begin with. One of his photos is just a composite of two others.

That was just a cropped photo of two images?

DOUGLASFOTOS wrote:

Well your judging.
IF they want money...and lot's of it...they will take anyone.
Plus...Ur Judging.

move along

Yup, you make total sense.

Philipe wrote:

What is it are you paying for? Comp cards?
You can make comp cards on line way cheaper, even here on model mayhem you can make comp cards..
Whats the money going to?
You said the 500.00 for collateral? Is this to be payed back through work?..
Its like they are already giving you a bill and nothing has happen..
Correction they are charging you up front..
What does not make sense is that they said you can use your own photographer, which says to me if you use their photographer, it would be more...
If they still charge you 500.00 either way...
Its like they don't care, they just want your money..
Its like, even if you use your own photographer, its 500.00........

It was 850 for their photographer. But if I find my own then that charge would be cancelled out. But then you still have to pay 500$ for collateral, which is comp cards.

Isis22 wrote:

I am stating a fact. Are you not aware of the rules?

Why don’t you leave that up to the people that run the website. Being my profile was allowed like everyone else’s profile there isn’t a problem. The temperature on the pic that has two images together is different then the rest. How is this even relevant to the topic whatsoever? I just uploaded the first four on my flash.

IrisSwope wrote:
Denver isn't a huge market, they're not going to make enough money to advance money to new models. Try some other agencies, see what they say... you're not obligated to go with the first one you meet. And if only one is interested, it could be a sign.

Although I do think that in smaller markets its quite common for agencies to cover setup expenses up front - not $500 - but a more reasonable fee is normal.

I give new models I shoot with a list of the better agencies in town, from there I tell them that if they ask around enough (to others than are on that list) they will find someone who will say "yes" and then they will ask for a lot of money. Then I say that not everyone can be a model, that its worth a try and you don't know until you try, but if its not for you and if the standard agencies pass, that it may be best to move on.

Or I say something like that at least.




Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

AJScalzitti wrote:
Pay up front for what? Comp cards whiteout images?

Agencies will charge everything back to the model throughout their career.  They will send them on tests, the model pays the team directly.  They will order comp cards at some point, the model pays them.  They may send their book around, again the model pays that (or it's taken off earnings).  As you said, a model pays as they are freelancers.

A big up front fee for smoke up their tail pipe, no that is simply a scam.

Well, I will admit to, based on the limited info provided by the OP, making some assumptions that may very well be incorrect.

I don't know if he has to make his check payable to the agency, or if they're telling him what the start up costs are going to be.  Either way, that's still no guarantee they're not profiting off him as kick backs can be rather routine.  If the guy has no portfolio to speak of, needs a variety of looks shot, edited, lightly retouched and assembled for comp cards which need to be printed (usually in keeping with the same design/standard as the rest of the agencies comp cards) then $500 isn't bad, hell, even a grad isn't bad if all the looks need to be shot.  I don't know if that's the case or not, but it seems like it might be.

There is a difference between an agency charging a $500 signing fee and an agent telling a prospective model what the costs are going to be moving forward, we (or at least I) don't know which this is yet.

My only point was to address the notion that "legitimate" agencies pay for everything and it costs the model nothing (which seems to be espoused on this site quite a lot).  That's, as you know, not exactly how it works.

As for whether or not it's a scam…  I don't have enough info for that, and I suppose it's also how you define it.  Philipe is absolutely right (as far as I can tell) in his assessment of the situation, but I don't know if it rises to the level of "scam".  In any case, this is why I recommended the OP look at the costs and if there's any chance he'd be able to recoup them.

Leaving aside any discussion of the "it" factor, the simple fact is that the OP resides in Denver, which, as we both know, is not a market.  There just isn't that much work there.  So, if he stays there and intends to try getting work as a model, he's going to incur costs to get going.  Whether it's with this agency or not, he's going to wind up spending a good chunk of change to "start up" in a limited market (or to try and do it via trade, which may or may not work at all).  That's just a fact of geography.  If the agency has an active board (active being relevant to location),does it's best to get it's talent work, and secures such work, even if limited, then it's not really a scam (at least in my eyes). 

Having said ALL of that, the best thing the OP could do, would be to research agencies in NYC, LA & Chicago and go to open castings to get their opinion on his viability as a model.  Even then, even if a name agency agrees to sign him, he's going to have costs, not only pertaining to start up, which the agency may front for him, but pertaining to his moving to a new market - if that's even a consideration for him, which we have no way of knowing at this point.

mtoconnor98 wrote:

Do you think it is worth it? because Wilhelmina is an international company..

No. Also Wilhelmina does not operate as a single international company

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Having said ALL of that, the best thing the OP could do, would be to research agencies in NYC, LA & Chicago and go to open castings to get their opinion on his viability as a model.  Even then, even if a name agency agrees to sign him, he's going to have costs, not only pertaining to start up, which the agency may front for him, but pertaining to his moving to a new market - if that's even a consideration for him, which we have no way of knowing at this point.

Disagree. Best thing they can do is find out what is going on locally and if there is a need for him. From there, since flights are cheaper out of denver, see if a local agency has hookups in LA and Chicago.

Shit, my friend in Maine works now and then on commercial gigs and a few music videos, and that's more in the middle of nowhere (or just as much) as denver. Sure, there may not be a lot of work to make it a full time gig, but I'm sure something is going on there.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Giacomo Cirrincioni wrote:
Having said ALL of that, the best thing the OP could do, would be to research agencies in NYC, LA & Chicago and go to open castings to get their opinion on his viability as a model.  Even then, even if a name agency agrees to sign him, he's going to have costs, not only pertaining to start up, which the agency may front for him, but pertaining to his moving to a new market - if that's even a consideration for him, which we have no way of knowing at this point.

Andrew Thomas Evans wrote:
Disagree. Best thing they can do is find out what is going on locally and if there is a need for him. From there, since flights are cheaper out of denver, see if a local agency has hookups in LA and Chicago.

Shit, my friend in Maine works now and then on commercial gigs and a few music videos, and that's more in the middle of nowhere (or just as much) as denver. Sure, there may not be a lot of work to make it a full time gig, but I'm sure something is going on there.



Andrew Thomas Evans
www.andrewthomasevans.com

Good advice.

Kelleth wrote:
Try Donna Baldwin in denver instead.

Thanks!