Jokermagician wrote:
Hey there all,

I was wondering: do you, models, enjoy the idea of artists sketching out reference imagery from your work? Do you hate it? Do you have an opinion about it at all? Why?

Thank you all!

I have modelled for artists individually and in classrooms, studios and galleries for about 28 years now, and enjoy doing that very much. While I would greatly prefer to model in person if an artist wants to sketch me, I know that's not always possible due to distance or availability. Many artists take photos when I pose for them, giving them a reference to work from so they can complete their artwork at a later date. Still other artists want to work only from photos.

I think it's all good, everyone has their personal preferences. I'd rather model in person, but when I can't I'm fine if an artist wants to work strictly from pictures. One of the first things I learned way back when I started modelling was that artists like to create what are called derivative works by taking existing pictures and then making new artwork showing their personal interpretation.

kaylabelle wrote:
I've never tried it, but I think it would be fun!  I would love to have something like that.  I had someone approach me about posing for a drawing once, but he never got back to me about it.

I'll be posing for a sculptor this Saturday.  I am excited but also nervous!

Hey Kaylabelle!

First off, thank you so much for your input! Like I said, every little bit helps in my understanding.

Good luck with the sculptor! That sounds pretty damn cool! haha... I'm sure it will go wonderfully.

And, may I at some point do a sketch or two based on your images? Utilizing your images as reference imagery?

I sent a friend request and from there we can dig deeper into later if you wish.

Thank you so much once again and take care -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:
And, may I at some point do a sketch or two based on your images? Utilizing your images as reference imagery?

You certainly may! 

kaylabelle wrote:

You certainly may! 

Fantastic! Much obliged!

I thank you so much for your kindness in allowing me to do so!

(As always, I will ask for permission first for a given image and give credit to you if/when I post it. I will also show you first before I post it, if you would like).

Take care -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:
Hey there all,

I was wondering: do you, models, enjoy the idea of artists sketching out reference imagery from your work? Do you hate it? Do you have an opinion about it at all? Why?

Thank you all!

Hi,
Its not my work you'd be referencing off of but the photographer's. You might want to ask this in the Photography forum.
Jen

Jen B wrote:

Hi,
Its not my work you'd be referencing off of but the photographer's. You might want to ask this in the Photography forum.
Jen

Okay, thank you so much for your input! Are you saying that if I were to be able to get permission from your image*s photographer, I might be able to utilize your images? If so, thank you so much!

If not, not a problem!

And I do have a post in the photographer*s section, but thank you for pointing me in the right direction!

Thank you again and take care -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:

Okay, thank you so much for your input! Are you saying that if I were to be able to get permission from your image*s photographer, I might be able to utilize your images? If so, thank you so much!

If not, not a problem!

And I do have a post in the photographer*s section, but thank you for pointing me in the right direction!

Thank you again and take care -

- Jokermagician

Sir, you would need the photographers permission, not the models. In most cases the photographer has the copyright not the model, unless they paid the photographer.

Besides, I find this whole approach maddening,
. The photographer plans  the shoot, hired the model, paid for the studio.  They have done the work and you are riding on their coat tails.

Hire your own  models, pay them and have them sit for you.  What you are doing is like a person off the street witnessing a photo shoot gets out their instamatic and starts shooting the model. How dare they. 

With your tactics as a photographer I would never give my permission.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Sir, you would need the photographers permission, not the models. In most cases the photographer has the copyright not the model, unless they paid the photographer.

Besides, I find this whole approach maddening,
. The photographer plans  the shoot, hired the model, paid for the studio.  They have done the work and you are riding on their coat tails.

Hire your own  models, pay them and have them sit for you.  What you are doing is like a person off the street witnessing a photo shoot gets out their instamatic and starts shooting the model. How dare they. 

With your tactics as a photographer I would never give my permission.

Hey there Risen Phoenix,

I understand your position and have been told this several times before about the rights as to which I stated that I would look for the proper permission when I found an image that I might wish to make a sketch based upon.

By the way, I don*t believe that that is a proper analogy, to be honest. I am not a photographer by any means and I am not calling their image my own. I am merely making a sketch based upon their image. The sketch may vary or be altered with different mediums, paper looks, etc. Beyond this, I am not selling these images or making any kind of profit off of them. The reason I am sketching out the images is because I wish to get better as an artist. I wish to improve the quality of the work that I put out. One way to do that is to sketch out images based upon reference imagery. I only post them to this site to show the quality of my sketches.

I appreciate your honesty, though, I really do. I mean that.

And in regards to your final comment - I will not be conversing with you in the future in regards to your images.

Thank you very much and take care -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:

Okay, thank you so much for your input! Are you saying that if I were to be able to get permission from your image*s photographer, I might be able to utilize your images?...
- Jokermagician

What I am saying is you need to ask the photographer, they own the copyright and I have given the photographer the release.

Jen

Figures Jen B wrote:
Photography forum thread, https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/941770

If any photographers gave permission for a shot I'm in, I'd appreciate knowing because I'd like to see it, (have a picture of the copy.) Although the person whose permission you need is photographers, (the model request and credit from you is a courtesy not the required.)

Jen

Don't worry Jen I would never give this guy permission. This whole thing is fishy to me.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:
Don't worry Jen I would never give this guy permission. This whole thing is fishy to me.

Hey there once again Risen Phoenix and any others,

If you would like to ask me any questions so as to put any doubt out of your mind about my intentions on here, I welcome you to do so. I say this since you, Phoenix, think that what I am asking or doing sounds fishy.

So, I welcome your inquiries if you think they would put your mind at ease.

If not, no worries.

Take care all -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:

Hey there once again Risen Phoenix and any others,

If you would like to ask me any questions so as to put any doubt out of your mind about my intentions on here, I welcome you to do so. I say this since you, Phoenix, think that what I am asking or doing sounds fishy.

So, I welcome your inquiries if you think they would put your mind at ease.

If not, no worries.

Take care all -

- Jokermagician

I do think it sounds fishy for this reason.
1.  If you wanted to only practice drawing you could do that by going to tumblr and simply drawing the images there, you will find thousands of them. Or you could go to an art museum and copy the statues, or paintings as many artists do at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts.

There actually is no permission needed if you are not going to publish them or sell them.  But once you receive general permission then you could in fact use the images both personally and commercialy as you alluded to in one of your 4 original OPs, unless one of the photographers or models counter with a usage agreement.

2.  And there are numerous artists who do in fact hire models to sit for them. You are avoiding this and going to a finished image to copy. Why can't you use the casting call method to find your models.

I am not sure why the mods have not shut these solicitations for images down I did not think this type of solicitation belongs in an industry forum. But hey maybe I am wrong.


3. And lastly if you look carefully  at Jen Bs portfolio a number of the images are actually mine. Jen has made it clear that she does not want to share her images with you and would prefer photographers don't give you permission.  I was simply letting her know that she does not have to worry about that happening on my end.


Enough said I will not bother you again.  Also and this is a side note but how is your avatar not a +18 image.  I thought the same standard applied to artists, sculptors and photographers. Fully nude buttocks are not allowed. If they are allowed then great that is good to know.

Thanks

Risen Phoenix

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

I do think it sounds fishy for this reason.
1.  If you wanted to only practice drawing you could do that by going to tumblr and simply drawing the images there, you will find thousands of them. Or you could go to an art museum and copy the statues, or paintings as many artists do at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts.

There actually is no permission needed if you are not going to publish them or sell them.  But once you receive general permission then you could in fact use the images both personally and commercialy as you alluded to in one of your 4 original OPs, unless one of the photographers or models counter with a usage agreement.

2.  And there are numerous artists who do in fact hire models to sit for them. You are avoiding this and going to a finished image to copy. Why can't you use the casting call method to find your models.

I am not sure why the mods have not shut these solicitations for images down I did not think this type of solicitation belongs in an industry forum. But hey maybe I am wrong.


3. And lastly if you look carefully  at Jen Bs portfolio a number of the images are actually mine. Jen has made it clear that she does not want to share her images with you and would prefer photographers don't give you permission.  I was simply letting her know that she does not have to worry about that happening on my end.


Enough said I will not bother you again.  Also and this is a side note but how is your avatar not a +18 image.  I thought the same standard applied to artists, sculptors and photographers. Fully nude buttocks are not allowed. If they are allowed then great that is good to know.

Thanks

Risen Phoenix

Hey there,

If I may respond to your points, which I do appreciate hearing,

1. I am asking for permission, and then re-asking later, so I may post the images if allowed once I've finished them. Having little funds, it is easier to go online and sketch images. It's nice to be able to sketch out imagery and show the photographer/artist. Sometimes they are flattered as to that and like to post "fanart". I missed the "personally or commercially part." I'm not sure where I alluded to that. My intent is to not use these commercially. I'll make that clear here, if it wasn't before. What do you mean "personally?"

2. As I said, I don't have a lot of money. And that money which I do have has been going to taking care of sick animals, school, necessities for life, and general things. So, I really don't have the money to pay any models. I also tell them that if they ask about compensation. And if they do not wish to allow me to do sketches based off of their images, they are perfectly able to say so and I will not bother them about it. They have every right to decline.

3. And okay, I completely understand. Not a problem. It initially wasn't clear on my end as to your reasoning. So, I appreciate you clearing that up. Thank you.

With the avatar image - that one I missed. Thank you for pointing that out. I will correct that.

I just hope to not have any ill feelings toward one another. That's not why I'm here. I'm here only to try to grow as an artist, to get better at the craft. I am not trying to steal anything, pretend I'm doing something that I'm not, nothing like that. If this helps at all, I've done sketches before like this and however long they've been there, I haven't once tried to get any profit from them. They're just there to show what I can do. And I'm not necessarily asking that you "not bother [me] again," but just to be amiable towards one another. I don't have any reason to be against you is all I'm saying. I wish that was the same for you towards me. I'm not sure what I've even done wrong, to be honest. My intent was never one of malice or the like...

Any ways, if that isn't possible, then all I can say is that I understand and I wish you the best.

I sincerely thank you for your input.

Take care -

- Jokermagician

Jokermagician wrote:

Hey there,

If I may respond to your points, which I do appreciate hearing,

1. I am asking for permission, and then re-asking later, so I may post the images if allowed once I've finished them. Having little funds, it is easier to go online and sketch images. It's nice to be able to sketch out imagery and show the photographer/artist. Sometimes they are flattered as to that and like to post "fanart". I missed the "personally or commercially part." I'm not sure where I alluded to that. My intent is to not use these commercially. I'll make that clear here, if it wasn't before. What do you mean "personally?"

2. As I said, I don't have a lot of money. And that money which I do have has been going to taking care of sick animals, school, necessities for life, and general things. So, I really don't have the money to pay any models. I also tell them that if they ask about compensation. And if they do not wish to allow me to do sketches based off of their images, they are perfectly able to say so and I will not bother them about it. They have every right to decline.

3. And okay, I completely understand. Not a problem. It initially wasn't clear on my end as to your reasoning. So, I appreciate you clearing that up. Thank you.

With the avatar image - that one I missed. Thank you for pointing that out. I will correct that.

I just hope to not have any ill feelings toward one another. That's not why I'm here. I'm here only to try to grow as an artist, to get better at the craft. I am not trying to steal anything, pretend I'm doing something that I'm not, nothing like that. If this helps at all, I've done sketches before like this and however long they've been there, I haven't once tried to get any profit from them. They're just there to show what I can do. And I'm not necessarily asking that you "not bother [me] again," but just to be amiable towards one another. I don't have any reason to be against you is all I'm saying. I wish that was the same for you towards me. I'm not sure what I've even done wrong, to be honest. My intent was never one of malice or the like...

Any ways, if that isn't possible, then all I can say is that I understand and I wish you the best.

I sincerely thank you for your input.

Take care -

- Jokermagician

So once again you are being disengenuous. If you did what you say what you would do for each of your images you should credit the model who you said gave you permission you should also credit the photographer who you say you seek permission from along with the model. After like 4 days when you look at the images in your port you have not credited one single photographer.

Sir you lack credibility and you say one thing in all your posts about seeking permission from all parties and giving them credit yet the reality is you do no such thing.

Perhaps you could improve your credibility by going back to the reference photos you have in your port seek out the photographer ask their permission and then state that like you did for the model and the credit them.

Lest you think I am Being unreasonable I have allowed a number of my images to be drawn and then even exhibited in the likes of the seatle erotic festival. In each case they sought my permission and then credited me.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

So once again you are being disengenuous. If you did what you say what you would do for each of your images you should credit the model who you said gave you permission you should also credit the photographer who you say you seek permission from along with the model. After like 4 days when you look at the images in your port you have not credited one single photographer.

Sir you lack credibility and you say one thing in all your posts about seeking permission from all parties and giving them credit yet the reality is you do no such thing.

Perhaps you could improve your credibility by going back to the reference photos you have in your port seek out the photographer ask their permission and then state that like you did for the model and the credit them.

Lest you think I am Being unreasonable I have allowed a number of my images to be drawn and then even exhibited in the likes of the seatle erotic festival. In each case they sought my permission and then credited me.

Hey there,

Thank you once again for your input. First of all, I don't think that you are being totally unreasonable at all. I changed that which you mentioned before. And I'm appreciative of you letting me know.

I mean not to be disingenuous either. As I've said, and as I'm trying to do, I'm being as honest and forthright as I possibly can. That's why I said if you have any questions / concerns - let me know.

As far as the images, one was done sketching from a book. That was the avatar image.  The other ones I can definitely try to search out the photographers, that's not a problem. My thoughts were largely based into the future when dealing with photographers/models on here when it came to searching out models/photographers work and permission. To be honest, I didn't think about those because those were from a while back and were on another website for art, deviant art, and I believe that one or two of the models had inquired about me doing it to the photographers before I even began the sketches. There was no mention of the necessity for credit from the photographers at the time, so, I had the assumption that those were okay already. If the photographer would have come to me and mentioned something about needing credit, I would have absolutely given them credit, no problem. If they came to me and wanted it removed, I would have no problem taking them down...

So, believe me, I'm not trying to cause any problems or do anything wrong. That's not my intent, like I've been saying. I'm not trying to rip anyone off.

I appreciate everything that you have said. Like I have said, if the photographer of the image comes to me (for the images that are in my port already) and tells me to get rid of it or take it down, I will do so immediately, no problem. The reason that I didn't think those were a problem is because they have existed for quite a while, and no one has ever said anything about them or had a problem with them...

So, I thank you very much once again for your input and I will do my best not to interfere with your work in any way. I wish you the best in your endeavors, and your photography. Everything that you have said, I have taken to heart and will remember as I pursue my hobby.

Take care -

- Jokermagician