Isis22 wrote:
You should never assume anything. Communication is important.

+1

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

Depends on what sort of reputation you want to develop with local models, doesn't it?

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

Let's start with the thread title:  TFP Rules - a question:  There are no rules; there is no such thing as a "standard" TFP agreement.  There are only assumptions, and these need to be communicated clearly before the parties agree to work together.

That being said, there is nothing inappropriate with your assumptions.  Discuss this with your potential models.

Note, however, that some models will consider a reduced modeling fee in exchange for some images -- make sure they both of you are on the same page.

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

This is correct.
They want dollars, not photos.
She may expect edits but is not entitled to any.
She may reach out but she is not entitled to any.
Yes, you can charge for prints.

Hiring a model is a simple transaction. You have something that you want to shoot, you find a model, you hire her. You pay her for her time and after the shoot, you both go your separate ways with no further obligation.

Photographic Adventures wrote:
The first rule is that there are no rules.  Therefore, clearly communicate with the model BEFORE the shoot in order to manage expectations.

"Rules?  I don't need no stinking rules!"

"You know what they say about those who make assumptions!"

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

When I've paid a model, the terms (in the model's head, before discussion) range from them expecting to be paid and nothing else, to getting paid and receiving every single image for their own use, inspection, their own retouching, etc.

Communication is more important than wearing a bulletproof vest to a family reunion in New Jersey.

Herman Surkis wrote:
I work on a simple principle.

If I pay you, that is all you get.

I can't tell you how short sighted this thought process is.

Let me explain.  I am moving away from modeling and starting a company.  I designed three collections of luxury lingerie and I will have to get them photographed (three top agency models, here is the location... http://www.portlandmaine.com/wp-content … 2010-3.jpg).  Most likely, I am going to draw from positive experiences I have had.  There is NO way I would consider a photographer who's photos of me I never saw.  For two reasons:  1. I don't know if I like the photos he took of me.  2.  I am not assured that he would actually deliver the photos afterwards, considering his history. 
Consider it an investment, not only one that adds to your portfolio, but also a valuable contact who wants to see you succeed.  Word of mouth is powerful marketing.  Good or bad, it will have an effect on your business.

Amani Images wrote:
Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

They are certainly fair assumptions.  However they may not always be correct, many models will want to be paid and still expect photo's.  Having said that it tends to be inexperienced models that have that expectation and not professional or experienced models.

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

Yup. But like Samuel Jackson said - "When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of you and umption."
There's a lot of umption on MM. Just get the terms straight up front.

Blaire_ wrote:
OP.  I don't often do TF, but when I do, the photographer has a particular style that I want in my portfolio.  Otherwise, I will only shoot for pay.  Photographers hire me because they want what I have to offer in their books.  It's not necessary, and I never ask for it.  But I AM interested in the work we did together, and I would like to see photos. 

Wouldn't it make more sense to share what you have and create a really positive experience?  When a model has a friend who is wanting to get into modeling too, but she needs a portfolio started, who is the model going to refer her friend to?  The photographer who hired her and shared great photos?  Or the photographer who hired her and she never saw anything from? THAT does not inspire confidence. 



I can't tell you how short sighted this thought process is.

Let me explain.  I am moving away from modeling and starting a company.  I designed three collections of luxury lingerie and I will have to get them photographed (three top agency models, here is the location... http://www.portlandmaine.com/wp-content … 2010-3.jpg).  Most likely, I am going to draw from positive experiences I have had.  There is NO way I would consider a photographer who's photos of me I never saw.  For two reasons:  1. I don't know if I like the photos he took of me.  2.  I am not assured that he would actually deliver the photos afterwards, considering his history. 
Consider it an investment, not only one that adds to your portfolio, but also a valuable contact who wants to see you succeed.  Word of mouth is powerful marketing.  Good or bad, it will have an effect on your business.

Many photographers would consider that a negative experience since the purpose for them of hiring a model is to remove the need to deliver images.

Amani Images wrote:
When I contact a model for a shoot and they tell me that they can only shoot with me if I pay them, I fully respect that however I also make the following assumptions:

- the model is not really interested in adding my work/style/concept to their portfolio
- as such, the model will not be expecting edits from the shoot therefore it is up to me and me only which shots I edit and if I share them with the model
- the model will not reach out to me after the shoot asking for photos from the shoot
- I should be able to charge the model for any photos that they want edited from the shoot

Are these correct/fair assumptions to make?

These are all fair assumptions to make, but don't you think it would be a better idea to offer some images up front as part of initial negotiations?
I'm pretty sure the reason some models still expect payment along with complimentary images is because all too many photographers undervalue their work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally up for TFP with the right talent and also negotiating images in with paid work, but there's no way this little black duck is getting ripped. I mean if I do a shoot for a model and she's paying my rates, I don't go around expecting her images on top of the deal.

Darren Brade wrote:
Many photographers would consider that a negative experience since the purpose for them of hiring a model is to remove the need to deliver images.

You are missing my point entirely.  I didn't say 'need'.  Professional models (which is who I assume you work with) don't need photos.  They have plenty.  I'm saying, while you're at it, when you finish a few, you might as well pop two or three in an email and turn your model into a business ally.  I don't mind when a photographer doesn't send me photos.  And I never ask, but I forget them entirely.  So when I have paid work to offer to photographers, who am I going to recommend??

By the way,  one of my lingerie collections is called 'Equestrienne'.  I am looking at several options to get it shot.  One thing I was considering is taking the whole project to London to shoot on an estate.  I am keeping my eye out for a London photographer.  The job pays $1,200.  This photo alone would cause me to seriously consider you.

 

However, if we had shot, and you had not ever sent images, you would not be in consideration.  I want a photographer who wants to impress me.  Who WANTS my business.  The 'I paid you now go away' approach is not going to work in your favor in cultivating paid work.

Blaire_ wrote:
You are missing my point entirely.  I didn't say 'need'.  Professional models (which is who I assume you work with) don't need photos.  They have plenty.  I'm saying, while you're at it, when you finish a few, you might as well pop two or three in an email and turn your model into a business ally.  I don't mind when a photographer doesn't send me photos.  And I never ask, but I forget them entirely.  So when I have paid work to offer to photographers, who am I going to recommend??

By the way,  one of my lingerie collections is called 'Equestrienne'.  I am looking at several options to get it shot.  One thing I was considering is taking the whole project to London to shoot on an estate.  I am keeping my eye out for a London photographer.  The job pays $1,200.  This photo alone would cause me to seriously consider you.



 

However, if we had shot, and you had not ever sent images, you would not be in consideration.  I want a photographer who wants to impress me.  Who WANTS my business.  The 'I paid you now go away' approach is not going to work in your favor in cultivating paid work.

Darren Brade wrote:
Many photographers would consider that a negative experience since the purpose for them of hiring a model is to remove the need to deliver images.

+1 Personally I'm not a big fan of those who simply expect something for nothing.
If you liked the photographers work so much to begin with, surely you would have hired him/her.
I can't see you ever hiring a photographer for one of you campaigns, who's work you initially saw no value in.
Your reasoning merely sounds like an excuse to go around cherry picking whatever takes your fancy.

ontherocks wrote:
if you have unwritten rules that the model isn't aware of that could cause problems. but on the flip side too much upfront discussion can cause trouble, too.

this topic seems to come up a lot. apparently some TF models are now expecting both money and images.

I make it clear to models that I pay that I will not give them images for their use in their portfolio or for any other use.  The truth is that model in fact does not like your work, can not distinguish about the quality of your work or that of a GWC.

Models that want to be paid and demand  your edits place no value on the photographer
Somewhere along the journey there has to be value in the work a photographer does. 

I understand that traveling models need to be paid.  They are mostly amazing models and have books to prove it.  They are worth every penny.

But there are a number of traveling models who have worked for trade or for discounted rates.

In all cases I have given them up to 20 edits with  which I have a turn around time of 1 to 2 days.

If you are a local model that is just starting and have a bad book, if I have to pay them they do not get any edits  and I tell them that at the beginning of any collaboration.  If they shoot for trade they get images that have been edited. As I have mentioned above.

Rik Williams wrote:
+1 Personally I'm not a big fan of those who simply expect something for nothing.
If you liked the photographers work so much to begin with, surely you would have hired him/her.
I can't see you ever hiring a photographer for one of you campaigns, who's work you initially saw no value in.
Your reasoning merely sounds like an excuse to go around cherry picking whatever takes your fancy.

Nobody said anything about expecting.  I'm just saying it's smart marketing practice. 

And the great thing about being the client, is that you can 'cherry pick' all you want.  (although I really don't know what you mean by that).

Blaire_ wrote:
Nobody said anything about expecting.  I'm just saying it's smart marketing practice. 

And the great thing about being the client, is that you can 'cherry pick' all you want.  (although I really don't know what you mean by that).

So are you saying you see yourself as the paid talent and the client when you're getting paid for a job?



I was specifically referring to your proposal that you might choose a potential shooter for your up coming campaign from a list of photographers you would only accept payment from to work with, this would seem highly unlikely in the real world.

What I am saying is it is very unfair to accept/expect images one finds to be of value from clients who initially paid for services rendered, without offering some form of compensation for their hard work. (Unless previously negotiated before the shoot)
I'm also saying that there are a lot of models out there who do indeed expect images under the circumstances I've mentioned above.

Not necessarily you.

Rik Williams wrote:

So are you saying you see yourself as the paid talent and the client when you're getting paid for a job?



I was specifically referring to your proposal that you might choose a potential shooter for your up coming campaign from a list of photographers you would only accept payment from to work with, this would seem highly unlikely in the real world.

What I am saying is it is very unfair to accept/expect images one finds to be of value from clients who initially paid for services rendered, without offering some form of compensation for their hard work. (Unless previously negotiated before the shoot)
I'm also saying that there are a lot of models out there who do indeed expect images under the circumstances I've mentioned above. Not necessarily you.

No, I don't.  But I, along with everybody else, am a potential client, and referral.  And to think that just because I wouldn't shoot TF with them initially does not take them out of the running for paid work in the future, although somebody with a defeatist attitude might think that.  People can surprise you.  They surprise me every day.

Charles Nevols hired me in San Francisco.  He paid me, I really had no expectations.  He did send me a few photos.  And his work BLEW ME AWAY.  Fucking blew my mind.  I would definitely consider him, whereas I would not have by just pursuing his portfolio, and I definitely would not have if he never shared what he created with me, because my mind wouldn't have been blown. 

You mention services rendered and hard work.  You are already doing the work.  The work is done.  The only additional work to be done is attaching them to an email with a nice note. 

You obviously don't get it, so I'm going to bow out now.  I hope your business plan works for you.

Blaire_ wrote:
No, I don't.  But I, along with everybody else, am a potential client, and referral.  And to think that just because I wouldn't shoot TF with them initially does not take them out of the running for paid work in the future, although somebody with a defeatist attitude might think that.  People can surprise you.  They surprise me every day.

Charles Nevols hired me in San Francisco.  He paid me, I really had no expectations.  He did send me a few photos.  And his work BLEW ME AWAY.  Fucking blew my mind.  I would definitely consider him, whereas I would not have by just pursuing his portfolio, and I definitely would not have if he never shared what he created with me, because my mind wouldn't have been blown. 

You mention services rendered and hard work.  You are already doing the work.  The work is done.  The only additional work to be done is attaching them to an email with a nice note. 

You obviously don't get it, so I'm going to bow out now.  I hope your business plan works for you.

Just goes to show you how far removed from reality the MM way of doing business is done.

Thank you so much, I've no doubt your sincerity and heartfelt well wishes are evident to all 😄

And in return, all the best with your enterprising plans for the future, I'm certain your (want your cake and eat it too) business model will take you far.

Isis22 wrote:
You should never assume anything. Communication is important.

++`1

Shadow Dancer wrote:
I have found this thread interesting so far.

There seems to be a general consensus among some of the photographers here that working with models in terms of the transaction is similar to purchasing a can of beets at the supermarket.

"I paid for the beets, I will eat them all and throw the can away."

The service provider/customer relationship is strictly defined and adhered to as such. This lack of vision disappoints me. If the purchaser of beets were to consider a long-term global strategy they might benefit in ways that far exceed their own imaginations but they are clutching the pennies so tightly that they have no ability to release their grasp and reach for future dollars.

I worked for a couple of years at Kinko's under the original founders. Their mission statement was simple - "Our number one priority is to take care of our customer". The vision and implementation of that on a store level was that EVERYBODY was your customer and you were EVERYBODY'S customer. We worked hard to build long-term relationships with the people we worked FOR, the people we worked WITH and the people who worked FOR US. The result was lots of steady repeat business, lots of referrals from satisfied customers that led to new business and lots of customers moving around the business world but coming to the place they knew would take care of them every time.

The founders started with one copier in a leased building and grew to over 1200 stores worldwide before they sold the business at a huge profit and retired in their late 40's so it appears they understood something powerful. In every city there were plenty of places to get copies but nationwide nobody even came close to achieving what Kinko's did.

I see that Rik and Blaire have agreed to disagree but I am not able to wrap my head around Rik's (and others) concept that hiring a model is a single, cut and dried transaction. If he hired Blaire and sent along a couple of web-ready images afterwards, what does it cost him? One minute? What does it benefit him? For one, having your work seen in the portfolio of a professional model, that is an immediate benefit. More important and I am just repeating Blaire's point here, what benefit is it to Rik long term? There is no way of knowing, is there? To dismiss such opportunities to establish a long term relationship because the outcome cannot be predicted is extremely short-sighted in my view. People grow and change and their position in life grows and changes with them. Lots of models become photographers, art directors, curators, movers and shakers with their own businesses or representing business concerns of their customers.

A good friend said it well although perhaps a bit harsh to fit this situation:

"The toes you step on today might be connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow."

Best of luck to all of you!!!!

I don't think you get what they said because you don't shoot for money. When you start depending on photography for income you'll have few illusions about the people who exploit others. Giving photos to models hasn't led to work for me. One model claimed I was going to shoot her cover album and she even said that to people. All she did was exploit me and even refused to sign a standard model release. . It's when potential clients see me on facebook that the doors swing open and they don't find me through models. I meet people at fashion shows and when they look at facebook and the website, opportunity occurs through there. If people find me through models on facebook they try and get me to come to fashion events and work for free. To get work means I have to get out-and-about.

LA StarShooter wrote:

I don't think you get what they said because you don't shoot for money. When you start depending on photography for income you'll have few illusions about the people who exploit others. Giving photos to models hasn't led to work for me. One model claimed I was going to shoot her cover album and she even said that to people. All she did was exploit me and even refused to sign a standard model release. . It's when potential clients see me on facebook that the doors swing open and they don't find me through models. I meet people at fashion shows and when they look at facebook and the website, opportunity occurs through there. If people find me through models on facebook they try and get me to come to fashion events and work for free. To get work means I have to get out-and-about.

I have shot for money in the past - weddings, ballet, ice skating, did not enjoy it. Photography as a business IS a business, universal precepts apply. I would rather make money in other pursuits and enjoy my "art time". Lately I don't shoot at all or even think about it. I am much more focused on songwriting and performing. This speaks to what I said about people changing and the opportunities they represent changing as well.

Re-read your last sentence, it is excellent and means far more than you think it means. Skeptical dotted line P's and Q's people still succeed in business, what they don't know won't hurt them I suppose. There is more than one way to expand your market.

Shadow Dancer wrote:
There seems to be a general consensus among some of the photographers here that working with models in terms of the transaction is similar to purchasing a can of beets at the supermarket.

"I paid for the beets, I will eat them all and throw the can away."

You have a very curious way of seeing things.

You speak of long term goals and lack of vision in a way that might suggest you have it all figured out and are well on your way to business success, then contradict this by saying you don't enjoy shooting for money and would much rather shoot for the 'art' of it all?

Perhaps this argument may stand up to scrutiny in MM land, but when it comes time to paying the bills, I'm afraid reality must prevail.

If you cast your mind back to my original argument, being the negotiating of images prior, as a far more professional way of conducting business, you might better understand where I'm coming from.

If something has value, it must ultimately have a price and I believe this should be established as part of the deal prior to money changing hands. Not after, when someone sees something that takes their fancy and feels they can use it to their own advantage, forsaking the effort of others entirely.

I am happy to negotiate prior to a shoot in order to establish terms, in fact, I do it with all my clients, none of whom have expectations of free images at any point.  ...I hope this is making sense.

You may see paying models as part of your art process, however there are many of us who don't.

Personally, I see art as working with passionate, like minded creatives, toward a common goal. The exchange of ideas and development of concepts in order to create work that speaks to others ...not just the exchange of cash ...if it's exchanged at all.

Rik Williams wrote:
Just goes to show you how far removed from reality the MM way of doing business is done.

Thank you so much, I've no doubt your sincerity and heartfelt well wishes are evident to all 😄

And in return, all the best with your enterprising plans for the future, I'm certain your (want your cake and eat it too) business model will take you far.

Honestly, your personal attacks on some models just shows your level of professionalism. We are all adults here. Hopefully you are not 16 years old.  I wish you the best in your pursuits.

Blaire_ wrote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to share what you have and create a really positive experience?

I have a concept for you - pay the photographer and create a really positive experience.
The thing of value that photographers are paid for is their photographs. It isn't some pretty leaf you found on the ground in the studio's parking lot, that you're asking to have. If they're published go buy the magazine and tear out the page. Or offer something of value for your use of them.
Geez.

-Tegan- wrote:
Honestly, your personal attacks on models just shows your lack of professionalism...no offense. Hopefully you are not 16 years old.  I wish you the best.

Personal attack/s? Did I miss something here?

Anyway, all the best to you too

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:
I have a concept for you - pay the photographer and create a really positive experience.
The thing of value that photographers are paid for is their photographs. It isn't some pretty leaf you found on the ground in the studio's parking lot, that you're asking to have. If they're published go buy the magazine and tear out the page. Or offer something of value for your use of them.
Geez.

Yes!  I'm on it!  I'm in the position all the time to offer paid work to photographers.  I can't get what I need to done without them!  And besides the work I find for them, I have my commercial projects coming up.  Each with a budget (for the photographers alone) of about $2,200, not to mention food, travel, lodging.  I will be paying them for the campaign, and I would hope that they would share the photos wherever they can so that my brand can reach more people.  I will also be sharing the photos and promoting the amazing photographer I had the pleasure to work with in hopes that he would benefit more from the job.

Oh.  And leaves are dumb, and worthless.  I would never give one as a gift.