Ken Marcus Studios wrote:
If you pull from a local agency you will still have to have appropriate paperwork for those models, or else you are in violation of US regulations.

Ok - now I'm confused. You said it would be applicable if the model was U.S. (and) the photographer was U.S. shooting in say Prague.
So, I'm suggesting I'd pull from a local Czech agency (say Elite Prague) - so the model would be Czech (i.e. non-US) and I'd be shooting in Czech Republic.
So, now it seems you're saying I'd have to have U.S. paperwork? - Maybe using Elite as the agency causes this to be a bad example.

J O H N  A L L A N wrote:

Ok - now I'm confused. You said it would be applicable if the model was U.S. (and) the photographer was U.S. shooting in say Prague.
So, I'm suggesting I'd pull from a local Czech agency (say Elite Prague) - so the model would be Czech (i.e. non-US) and I'd be shooting in Czech Republic.
So, now it seems you're saying I'd have to have U.S. paperwork? - Maybe using Elite as the agency causes this to be a bad example.

John . . . to answer your question and hopefully clear up your confusion, here is what I know as of this point in time:

As an American photographer shooting in the Czech Republic for commercial purposes (which you are doing), you must have a Czech work permit. If you get caught working on a Tourist Visa, you will have some legal problems.

Even if you do obtain a work permit and legally shoot Czech models for publication, their ID's will not be accepted as valid in the USA.

Especially, these days with all the issues around allowing people in the US and scrutinizing everyone's paperwork, it's hard to get around these things.

I've been asked before about why there are some Czech models appearing in English speaking websites. It is confusing to see their photos and wonder how you can work with these models, only to realize that as an American, you cant.

How do people do it then . . . ?
The answer is "MindGeek", the worlds largest porn company with facilities all over the world.
They hire models and photographers to work for them, with paymentfrom either Canada or Luxembourg
The photographers don't own the photos, therefore it's work for hire.

Hope this info helps . . .

KM

martin b wrote:
Back in the 90's I worked for an american magazine called Perfect 10.  The way we did it was to go to Prague and use their id's and American model releases.  I don't know how legal it was.  I did have work visas.  It was very easy to get back then.  My god were those women georgous.  It's been very long and I know that there was a change in attitude because of 911.  Also there was an AG named John Ashkroft who came after many international photographers for not getting their paperwork in order.  All I know is we always tried our best for 100% compliance.

At Playboy the photographers never owned their images so maybe the laws are different for them.

The id's the women used were passports.  Maybe I was still in violation of US laws.

The way you tell stories makes me feel like we're kids sitting at Grandpa's knee listening to you reminisce about the Olden Days heh.

CamelliaFlower wrote:
The way you tell stories makes me feel like we're kids sitting at Grandpa's knee listening to you reminisce about the Olden Days heh.

Ya, I think that's what I use mm for half the time.

I'm now trying to catch up on video editing around 10 Christmas videos and my family is here from the USA for a family reunion.  MM is my little escape from reality.  Too much christmas crashing into new year crashing into family reunion of 700 of us cousins.  yikes. tough week.

TomFRohwer wrote:
Eh... At least in Germany many young people finish university at the age of 27 or 28... Or 30... Many politicians and educational experts complain that young people in the US and other countries finish their education earlier than their US counterparts...

Well, Tom, I cut the rest, because I am just coming home from three gigs today and another big one tomorrow... so, I'll make it short!

I was born in 1965 in Munich, grew up in the Frankfurt/Mainz/Wiesbaden area... and left Germany in 1992, that's now 24 years ago.

It's suffice to say that most of the young generation of models you are dealing with now, weren't born yet, or were born within a plus/minus 3 years of that.

So... I can't tell very much about the current legislation and attitudes of the younger German generation, except for those that I meet in NYC, including my former intern, now assistant, who is in that age and graduated from photography school in Heilbronn... and from my observation, it appears pretty much close enough to the time when I left.

The educational system is completely different between the US and Germany, but I have heard that nowadays, students finish universities at a later age, because they often have to work part time as well.

You also must know that a lot what is considered a college degree in the US is the equivalent of many vocational schools (Berufsschule)... and that the Abitur is rather comparable the Associates degree on US colleges, that's why you chose your field at entering university... not after four semesters..

Btw., alcoholic beverages that do not contain spirits (beer, wine) can be consumed at the age of 14, as long as an adult is there as well! "Das öffentliche Konsumieren von nicht-branntweinhaltigen alkoholischen Getränken ist ab 14 Jahren in Begleitung von Erziehungsberechtigten gestattet, es gibt darüber hinaus keine Beschränkung." See also the pamphlet of the office for youth (don't know a better translation) of the government of Niedersachen (Lower Saxony) where the laws for the protection of young adults is explained to parents... looks that my info is not as outdated as you might think: http://www.jugendschutz-niedersachsen.d … Eltern.pdf

Anyway, I didn't read about my experiences with Germany on the back of a corn flakes box, but having lived there for the first 26 years of my life, moved around a lot and went to school and university over there... but again... that's a long time ago and I can't guarantee for the current conditions..

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Udor,you were done 5 posts ago when you posted ignorant blanket statements like Trump junior.

Drugs?!

Seriously! Are drugs your problem? Crack? Maybe not now, but in your past?

I am not making fun of you, but I am wondering what causes that disconnect!

I am kinda kidding... but if you have been diagnosed with some cognitive dysfunction, I will stop challenging you and apologize, because it's not in my nature to make fun of people who have an actual disability!

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Now Udor....you didnt agree with my point of view in our discussion.....and thats all it was....2 people debating..and your response..is you allude I do...excuse me....possibly did drugs or suffer from a mental issue.

Let's make this clear, Tony from Syracuse, I am asking about drug use, not because you are disagreeing with me, I am asking because you seem to be absolutely unable to understand what I am saying and then twist what I have said in other threads about completely different topics in a different context, adding interpretations of yours that are completely off-base into some offensive, convoluted, even grotesque statements about me and what I am supposedly thinking, according to you, that is so far from reality removed, that it seems that you have a serious cognitive problem (or trolling me!).

THAT is why I am asking, not because you share an unqualified opinion!

Hero Foto wrote:
how this topic progressed into sports and socio-economic disparities is beyond me.

If you have worked with European models IN Europe and have worked with US models in the US, how do they differ?

You are actually trying to get a derailed topic back on track?

TomFRohwer wrote:

After some 15 years shooting with pro, semi-pro and amateur models and after some 15 years loitering in German, European and US internet photography and modelling communities and forums I have to state:

All these complaints about models by photographers and by photographers about models, all those discussions, all those suddenly died grandmas and flakes and no shows and GWCs....

It's exactly the same on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean. Exactly the same. No difference. There is really no difference.

If there is one difference between models in the US and in Germany (models besides the agency repped full time professional models working in the fashion business etc.) it is this one:

If you want to make a living by modelling in the US you need to have a certain success because otherwise you will go to bed hungry and you will not know how to pay your rent.

If you want to make a living by modelling in Germany you always can rely on an extensive social security system which guaranties the money for at least a low standard flat and heating and electricity and some money for living. You cannot fall below this standard because it's guaranteed by the state. You always can go the office which is in charge for welfare and get this basic money. They even pay for your medical insurance if you do not have enough money to do so.

My impression (I have visited the US many times since 1982) always was and is until today that young Americans have far better survival capabilities than young Germans... Young Germans complain and go to the welfare office. Young Americans got to the next diner and work for minimum wages. Because otherwise they would starve.

In my experience this makes US models somewhat more... tough then their European counterparts. Honestly I always appreciated this. When it comes to sex they may be a little bit more... childish. But when it comes to living they are definitely more adult.

Just my 100 cents...

(By the way: don't mingle "Europe" and "Eastern Europe", inlcuding Russia, Ukraine. Circumstances of life in Eastern Europe are partially so bad that there is a really big motivation to crave for a career abroad.)

I find your posts fairly interesting.
Being one of the oldest here, and having spent a lot of time in Europe, the changes you mention would make for some interesting research. What you claim for prior to 2000 fits my memory. For more recent, not sure if it is good or bad.

These changes, and changing social structure and standards, may be the source of the differences and conflicts in this thread. In other words, depends on your time frame for your opinion.

I think we can all agree that North American models working in Europe will tend to be more mature, or become so quickly, than their counterparts back home. And vice-versa. And for all the reasons already pointed out. You simply do not survive in a foreign country without a certain level of maturity.

udor wrote:
Let's make this clear, Tony from Syracuse, I am asking about drug use, not because you are disagreeing with me, I am asking because you seem to be absolutely unable to understand what I am saying and then twist what I have said in other threads about completely different topics in a different context, adding interpretations of yours that are completely off-base into some offensive, convoluted, even grotesque statements that is so far from reality removed, that it seems that you have a serious cognitive problem.

THAT is why I am asking, not because you share an unqualified opinion!

if you were a teenager I might accept that...but given your advanced age....Rational people dont inquire if people are on drugs out of concern in the middle of heated message board debates.. they do it to be vindictive in front of others. and given your age, its clear you are being obtuse on purpose as if my argument is somehow beyond your comprehension. my advice to you, is if you cant act your Age....and refrain from alluding people are on drugs or have a mental issue when someone disagrees with you, dont get angry when I tell you, you are not much different than Trump with your over the top vindictive responses.

alba_andela wrote:
I'm a first generation European living in the US, so I can't tell where I fall. LOL.

I worked with Russian born and Hong Kong born models recently.  They are now living in the US.   

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
I have never worked with a european model so I dont know their personalities...I doubt many of us got into this concerned with model personalities.....I just think european models look so skinny, they dont look like a woman to me. they look spindly.
american women have curves and they look healthy and sexy and bodacious. thier legs look way hotter also. this is just my opinion...I know some will want to talk about personalities which is pretty useless in an industry that is driven mostly on what the model looks like...not that she can speak 2 languages.

I've shot "American" women with a very wide range of body types, and "European" women with a fairly wide range.  I'm sure that there is pretty much the same range in each place, although the proportions might vary from one place to another, for a variety of reasons. 

(18+ link) European model, who most certainly looks "like a woman".
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5127/5372 … 122b_b.jpg

Art of the nude wrote:

I've shot "American" women with a very wide range of body types, and "European" women with a fairly wide range.  I'm sure that there is pretty much the same range in each place, although the proportions might vary from one place to another, for a variety of reasons. 

(18+ link) European model, who most certainly looks "like a woman".
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5127/5372 … 122b_b.jpg

I agree.  There do seem to be some odd generalisations being bandied about here.

udor wrote:
. . . .

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
. . . .

Gentlemen, might I suggest now might be a good time to draw a line under your personal debate and leave it be.

It's clear that as photographers, your markets and experience relevant to or accrued through, working within your respective markets, vary widely. I therefore feel it's highly unlikely, given the above, that those differences of opinion are likely to swayed, much less reconciled, by further discussion with each other. At least where this subject is concerned.

Time therefore I believe, to consider moving on and allow the other contributors to/readers of, this thread, to draw their own  conclusions as to whom has presented the more compelling argument, based on the commentary you've both provided.

Kent Art Photography wrote:

I agree.  There do seem to be some odd generalisations being bandied about here.

I find it odd when someone who has never worked with European models presents a generalization about their body type.   

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
I am simply telling you,by that mode of thinking its only fair to say that being the european mindset is pro prostitution then, european women therefore are also more comfortable with taking off their pantys and getting cash for a sexual transaction. why deny it? its legal, and european women apparently arent prudish with their bodies or sex.

I didnt agree with your opinion american women are ashamed of their bodys...and you dont agree with the point that european women are more agreeable to renting out their vag as a business transaction. life will go on.

I've bounced round these fora as member and mod for many years and the section I've highlighted above, is quite possibly, one of the most ridiculously fallacious arguments, I've ever seen put forward.

Whilst I appreciate your argument is largely put forward as an example, it's my belief it's one that should not be put forward in any form. There will always be someone, somewhere, who won't know any better and quite possibly take your comments at face value, which should it happen, does a great disservice to all travelling models and particularly European ones.

Having worked with both European and US models myself, I can assure you, that should you present European models with such a proposition, they would just as readily hack off your junk with a rusty spoon, as any American model.

- Phil H - wrote:
Having worked with both European and US models myself, I can assure you, that should you present European models with such a proposition, they would just as readily hack off your junk with a rusty spoon, as any American model.

Awesome point

- Phil H - wrote:
I've bounced round these fora as member and mod for many years and the section I've highlighted above, is quite possibly, one of the most ridiculously fallacious arguments, I've ever seen put forward.

Whilst I appreciate your argument is largely put forward as an example, it's my belief it's one that should not be put forward in any form. There will always be someone, somewhere, who won't know any better and quite possibly take your comments at face value, which should it happen, does a great disservice to all travelling models and particularly European ones.



Having worked with both European and US models myself, I can assure you, that should you present European models with such a proposition, they would just as readily hack off your junk with a rusty spoon, as any American model.

Yes!

- Phil H - wrote:
I've bounced round these fora as member and mod for many years and the section I've highlighted above, is quite possibly, one of the most ridiculously fallacious arguments, I've ever seen put forward.

Whilst I appreciate your argument is largely put forward as an example, it's my belief it's one that should not be put forward in any form. There will always be someone, somewhere, who won't know any better and quite possibly take your comments at face value, which should it happen, does a great disservice to all travelling models and particularly European ones.

Having worked with both European and US models myself, I can assure you, that should you present European models with such a proposition, they would just as readily hack off your junk with a rusty spoon, as any American model.

Obviously I'm not advocating propositioning models genius. thats my point....I cant assume...european models are all prostitutes due to a pro prostitution leaning in europe. was it too over the top with my prostitution comparison situation?  well it shouldn't be given that from what I understand legalizing prostitution is considered enlightened in europe.  make... up ...your.. minds.

whats more troubling is on these modelmayhem forums is people like you and Udor... you both are like a car stuck in one gear when you read things you dont agree with and dont respond calmly and rationally. if I'm not being accused of beung in drugs, I get a silly needlessly hostile in bold type response from you. my advice....stop reading peoples posts...just hire models, take pictures etc etc. you're too excitable.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
[...] blanket statements like Udor that american models are ashamed of their bodies

[...] whats more troubling is on these modelmayhem forums is people like you and Udor...

[...] Udor who is NOT(!) german yet acts amazingly like a stereotype of an american conservative,

[...] my advice....stop reading peoples posts...

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

Both American and European models have changed in front of me.   

Jerry the way you respond to posts just cracks me up.  Happy New Year

DEP E510 wrote:

Fascinating post...

Why would Americans charge "much higher"?

Perhaps if American models charged the European rates more photographers would be willing to pay them

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Udor,you were done 5 posts ago when you posted ignorant blanket statements like Trump junior.

Now who is being political.  Soap Box is gone.

martin b wrote:
Back in the 90's I worked for an american magazine called Perfect 10.  The way we did it was to go to Prague and use their id's and American model releases.  I don't know how legal it was.  I did have work visas.  It was very easy to get back then.  My god were those women georgous.  It's been very long and I know that there was a change in attitude because of 911.  Also there was an AG named John Ashkroft who came after many international photographers for not getting their paperwork in order.  All I know is we always tried our best for 100% compliance.

At Playboy the photographers never owned their images so maybe the laws are different for them.

The id's the women used were passports.  Maybe I was still in violation of US laws.

Martin I have to say Perfect 10 was an amazing and classy magazine.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Now who is being political.  Soap Box is gone.

Soapbox isnt gone, if it were gone every thread on model mayhem would have been deleted

udor wrote:
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            


                                                                           

I mean seriously..that's not the response of someone over 15.I mean 2 maybe 3 emoticons maybe,but come on.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Martin I have to say Perfect 10 was an amazing and classy magazine.

I remember seeing a couple issues a ways back. What I remember was definitely a step up from the typical glamor stuff of the day.

Risen Phoenix Photo wrote:

Jerry the way you respond to posts just cracks me up.  Happy New Year

I was really surprised when a model first did it.

Jerry Nemeth wrote:

I was really surprised when a model first did it.

Surprised.

I did not know where to look.
You know how awkward it is to not look at a model changing in front of you. She cracked up at the effort I was making to not look.

"That was polite, but silly. If I minded you looking, I would not have changed in front of you. Just don't stare, that is impolite, but a little drooling is ok."

Shoot went downhill from there, or uphill depending on your point of view.

Herman Surkis wrote:

Surprised.

I did not know where to look.
You know how awkward it is to not look at a model changing in front of you. She cracked up at the effort I was making to not look.

"That was polite, but silly. If I minded you looking, I would not have changed in front of you. Just don't stare, that is impolite, but a little drooling is ok."

Shoot went downhill from there, or uphill depending on your point of view.

I'm comfortable with it now.  It happens so often.

udor wrote:
Btw., alcoholic beverages that do not contain spirits (beer, wine) can be consumed at the age of 14

In Germany softdrinks (not containing hard liquor) may be served to minors older than 14 when they are accompanied by their parents (or other people who are entitled to custody). If minors are not accompanied by those adults the age limit is 16. Just for clarification...