Brian Diaz wrote:
The client pays.  Always.

Sometimes the client is also the model.  For example, a model may need photos for a portfolio.  In that case the model pays.

Sometimes the client is also the photographer.  For example, a photographer may need a model to take part in stock photos that are to be sold later.  In that case the photographer pays.

^^^^^^^
The definitive answer, IMHO.

As a photographer, I work TF only.  It has never seemed to me to be a viable business from the photographer's point of view--there are just too many other easier ways to make a living.

Even today, although there are few to none modeling jobs for a man my age unless including advertising jobs that for one reason or another come under SAG's domain, I almost always get paid for modeling work and then both the photographer and I are paid by a third party. 

As an actor, I generally get my headshots as part of TF arrangements.

Justin Popp Photography wrote:
On the same topic, Models - When do you decide it is time to stop paying for portfolio shows, and start getting paid? Will you pay for shots after the point of being a "professional"? Or do you just wait for paid gigs to come?

After about a year and a half of portfolio-building, during which I was shooting consistently for trade between 1-3 days per week, I had a portfolio strong enough that people just started offering me paid work.

I did A LOT of trade, and it sort of took over my life to the point where I was having trouble holding down a mainstream job - before I started getting paid offers.

I did not set out with the intention of becoming a full-time model, traveling or working professionally. I set out in 2005 with the intention of just having a few "shits and giggles," doing something taboo (modeling nude) while I was still young enough to find people who'd be willing to work with me.

The first few "good" photographers I contacted for trade basically laughed me under the table, or just said "no thanks," because I was short and not particularly pretty-looking in the first, remarkably unflattering photos that beginner photographers took of me. So I also did a lot of terrible trade shoots for about six months, until I had some not-so-terrible ones, which led to pretty good ones, then finally strong images with decent photographers, and then paid work.

I paid my dues, so to speak.

Justin Popp Photography wrote:
Up until this point I have very much been shooting to teach myself to one day make a little money doing this hobby. However after putting in the time I am finding it harder to book the shoots I want, while still getting paid.

I feel like the model/photographer relationship is a bit awkward as both want to be paid to do something that potentially the other can benefit from. This is where I see a lot of free work, or trade coming into play. Which does not pay a bill.

It seems a lot of models expect to be shot for pay, as they are the subject. I totally understand that.
However at what point does a photographer begin to have enough, I guess reputation and skill, to no longer have to take these free shoots?

At what point in your career did you see a turn around? When did model begin to approach you?

On the same topic, Models - When do you decide it is time to stop paying for portfolio shows, and start getting paid? Will you pay for shots after the point of being a "professional"? Or do you just wait for paid gigs to come?

I love shooting and regardless of income I will continue to do it, but I am just trying to understand the curve.

There is something other than paying for models. Trade is why I am here. Although if you are tired of trade then I don't know what to recommend to you.

It is very rare for me to pay a photographer. I paid three times since 2012, (edited because of my math.) Once I ended with zero shots, the other time I learned a lot from the photographer/model and had a great experience and the third time I learned a lot also from the photographer and his team.

I have a tentative shoot for pay in the works but, my schedule isn't helping, (and it is with someone who does not make his bread and butter off of models.)

Jen

Jen B wrote:
I paid three times since 2012, (edited because of my math.) Once I ended with zero shots, the other time I learned a lot from the photographer/model and had a great experience and the third time I learned a lot also from the photographer and his team.

I have paid photographers a few times, and also paid for MUA services. In general, the results were lackluster and not in line with what I initially saw in the photographers' portfolios that made me want to pay their rates. One of them overlit the entire shoot, blew everything out and the photos I paid for were...eh...um...bad, though his port had been full of shiny, crisp commercial type images and tearsheets.

I also offered to pay someone last year, who had an outstanding commercial portfolio and was fairly well known. He turned down my offer of pay, and expressed interest in trade, to which I agreed, then he cancelled a couple days before the shoot - making the whole issue moot. I did set up several shoots like this last year, where they turned down my cash offers, expressing a preference for trade, then cancelled a day or two before.

Abbitt Photography wrote:
I think Koryn's post is fairly typical of many models her in that they would rather invest a lot of time and effort into doing TF to built their portfolio rather than pay to accomplish the same thing faster.  Actually, I think Koryn stuck with it where many newer models would have given up.  Most models I see join MM have hopes of earning pay in a short time period and when that doesn't happen, they fade away rather than stick with it...

I never got interested in paying people until the last couple of years when it was starting to become nearly impossible to get useful trade. The people approaching me for trade at that point generally wanted to shoot exactly the same boring things I'd been shooting for a decade. Not anything I actually needed to continue progressing and growing.

After a point, you have basically run through 95% of the potentially useful trade that is reasonably accessible to you. So, you either get stuck at that same level and spin your wheels for a few years, plateued (what happened to me, starting around 2011 and continuing through my last tour in 2015). Or you start paying photogtaphers who are far beyond the level you're capable of finding for trade.

Unfortunately, they can be as unreliable as anyone else - and being working professionals who shoot for publication or other meaningful outlets, are NOT generally interested in a freelance model with a $300 budget.

Koryn wrote:
After a point, you have basically run through 95% of the potentially useful trade that is reasonably accessible to you. So, you either get stuck at that same level and spin your wheels for a few years, plateued (what happened to me, starting around 2011 and continuing through my last tour in 2015). Or you start paying photogtaphers who are far beyond the level you're capable of finding for trade.

Good point.  I think in terms of portfolio development TF tends to have a limited lifespan for both models and photographers, probably more so for models.  That's the nature of supply and demand.  Top caliber models and photographers who commend good pay have little incentive to give that up to do TF.  I think photographers more so than models are willing to keep doing TF simply as hobby even if it no longer advances their portfolio or potential to earn money.  I also think photographers can often benefit from TF a lot longer than models can in terms of advancing their abilities. 

As a result, I think we see a lot of photographers wanting to do TF with a fairly limited number of models who will benefit from or desire to do the TF those photographers offer.   At the same time, hobbyist photographers are only going to spend so much on a hobby and it needs to be something they value and can't get on a TF basis.  This can create a stale mate of sorts.  A lot of models won't stick with it as long as you did, and simply fade away, not wanting to do more TF, not wanting to spend money to make the jump to the next level, and not able to commend pay where they are at.

Justin Popp Photography wrote:
However at what point does a photographer begin to have enough, I guess reputation and skill, to no longer have to take these free shoots?

When you get good at it. Some people literally never learn to take a decent photo, plenty of people love to boast they've been shooting as long as I've been alive and thats a shame because they still absolutely suck at it, some people it comes naturally to them, a lot of people are somewhere in between where it takes them some time. There is no definitive X years or Y shoots or Z dollars/pieces of equipment.

Trade shoots are also not free. And you'll never completely stop being asked to shoot trade.

On the same topic, Models - When do you decide it is time to stop paying for portfolio shows, and start getting paid? Will you pay for shots after the point of being a "professional"? Or do you just wait for paid gigs to come?

I love shooting and regardless of income I will continue to do it, but I am just trying to understand the curve.

Like many I never intended to go full-time as a model, I enjoyed shooting trade for cool pictures. A few years into it I moved and was having trouble finding a "real job" in the middle of nowhere and I had already spent enough time trading to get my portfolio to a point where not everyone offering a shoot was going to help advance my portfolio, so I started quoting rates and taking on paid work with people I didn't want or need images from. I never stopped trading and would pay for someone phenomenal

Justin Popp Photography wrote:
Up until this point I have very much been shooting to teach myself to one day make a little money doing this hobby. However after putting in the time I am finding it harder to book the shoots I want, while still getting paid..

You lost me right here. You are looking for someone to pay you to shoot what you want to shoot ?

That's similar to the models who post that they want images to go in their portfolios, and expect to be paid in addition.

Either it's trade or the person looking for images is generally the one who pays.

Shooting models and expecting them to pay is a difficult career path.

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm sure to get some push back for this but talent paying talent doesn't work.   The best idea is to find actual clients.   Models simply lack the money to pay for the most part and their aren't enough photographers who are willing to pay no matter their skill level.

You bring up a very valid point and one that shows experience and savvy in the business.  Most of the pay jobs I've had as a photographer have been for a specific reason and I can't recall one being to update a portfolio.

I had a pretty good business doing boudoir shoots for ladies wanting to do something special for their other half for an anniversary for a while and almost all of it was by word of mouth from previous clients.  One specific aspect of my business that brought me more shoots than anything else, was that I would put in writing the restricted use of their intimate images and held good to my word.  Most of those clients wanted images to entice their other half, not show their wares all over the net.  Maintaining trust with them was and still is a cornerstone of how I do business.  would I like to share some of that work here on MM?  Definitely, as some of those images came out very well and the ladies are fascinatingly beautiful.  Will I?  Not on your life because I made that promise, regardless of the signed contract.

There is a difference between "shooting for someone" and "shooting with someone."  When shooting for someone, they normally have specific images or a specific use in mind for the images they need/want - headshots, family portraits, special gift, etc. When shooting with someone, as most of us do with models, there needs to be a mutual gain from the experience.  Should a model desire to hire me for a portfolio update, I would expect them to have a concept already in place and simply be able to let me know what she or he desires or at least be open to proper planning sessions to ensure their money and our time isn't wasted.  In that case, time does equal money - their money for my time.  I'd hate to see anyone enter into a business agreement and not get what they need/want/desire and, to be truthful, I'm not a fan of wasting time for myself or a client. 

For models making a living working with paying photographers, I wish you noting but success and for the rare photographer being paid to update portfolios or whatever, the same to you.  For those of both schools desiring to work collaboratively but without the funds to pay the other side, courtesy goes a long way towards getting you what you want.  A few sincere kind words can go a long way.

Best of luck to everyone!

Tony Lawrence wrote:
I'm sure to get some push back for this but talent paying talent doesn't work.   The best idea is to find actual clients.   Models simply lack the money to pay for the most part and their aren't enough photographers who are willing to pay no matter their skill level.

That's a FACT! 

Back in 1979 when I started shooting, it was an analog World where printing on paper was what we did.  Models and bands (the talent besides us) needed pictures.  We provided those pictures for money.  I also did quite well with shooting weddings and portraits.  As a journalist, I freelanced for magazines and newspapers.  People seemed to have respect towards photographers. 

Then something turned the World of analog and paper upside down!  It was the digital revolution!  Printing is not necessary, and so publishing is done online.  I have personally met young photographers who will shoot your wedding, portrait, modeling images or live band shots for FREE!  Newspapers and magazines have laid off the majority of their staff and utilize "user provided content" now.  It could have driven me bananas, but I joined the revolution and make money through providing content for websites.  I self publish and use resources available on social networks.   That's where I find my models and clients is on the Internet. 

In short, I either TFP with new models or I pay the models I work with on projects. On very rare occasion, I get paid by the model.  I also work with musicians, but I have experience in management and publicity with them.  I also teach photography and write books.  Nothing seems to pay a large amount like in the old days when you had Supermodels who wouldn't get out of bed without pay, and rock stars making ridiculous amounts of money.  Photographers, musicians, models and anyone else that is an "artist" has to find new ways to make an income in the digital age.  We can live off of each other.

J E W E T T wrote:
Models are not clients.  Clients are clients.  They pay me, and the model.
If you are doing an important personal project, it's often worth paying the model.
Very, very few if any photographers make a living from models paying for images.

FACT!

Justin Popp Photography wrote:
So who pays?!? (model / photographer)

Others may have said it already, but here's the short form:

The person who has to gain the most from the shoot often pays!

E.g. if your photos help the model to book gigs... and you kinda have a track record for it... your value is higher and a model that can afford to pay, pays you! If your photos are not there yet, you should consider paying high end models to work with you for your own portfolio and promotions.

Ideally, your photography is on a level that companies/clients hire you to shoot for them and they pay you, your creative team and your model/s.