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Would you post a notice of MMer who flakes on you?
Had an experience of a model here who just never showed up after I booked a space. Didn't return texts or emails, but she checked into the site so I know she's ok or at least ok enough to log into MM and send an email. I know only posts on your profile page are allowed with a "do not recommend MM# ... ask me for details." But would you / do you do this? On the one hand, I feel funny about outing someone like that and tarnishing their reputation; on the other hand, I feel an obligation to warn others. What would you do? Thanks. Apr 23 17 07:56 pm Link I blow it off. It's not the first time someone has cost me money. Besides, if I posted all those that flaked from this site I'd need a several page intro. Seems many want the fame and success that modeling surely brings but don't want to expend a lot of energy for it. When you find those that are reliable and work in a professional manner, even if newbs, stay with them. Apr 23 17 08:28 pm Link no. more people than not flake, so it would just make you look whiny. Apr 23 17 08:44 pm Link Warn others or seek REVENGE ? These kind of posts just make you look bad and accomplish nothing Go with your feeling and take the high road Apr 23 17 08:50 pm Link I've always viewed it in poor taste unless what the person did was absolutely horrible, and it leaves a negative association in mind when I view that person's profile. I sympathize and don't think there are many excuses to flake (with the exception of legitimate emergencies and what not), but we only see one side of the story, and I don't think the circumstances sound dire enough to warrant a public name-and-shame yet. I would personally just write her off and move on. Flakes happen. No time to dwell on it when you can create with others instead, imo. Apr 23 17 09:53 pm Link I've privately notified photographer pals on some egregious cases, but would never post a flake notice of any sort on my profile. Most of the photographers checking out the flake would never find my notice, but all models checking me out would. Apr 23 17 10:38 pm Link throw money at the problem like your other 99 problems flakes will magically stop happening Apr 24 17 12:01 am Link Life is too short to play games. Or to extend them. Move on. Apr 24 17 12:28 am Link OK, I appreciate the feedback. I'll let it go then. I figured as much but just wanted to be sure. (But for all of you, her MM# is .... just kidding.) Thanks! Apr 24 17 02:40 am Link DNR Apr 24 17 04:53 am Link LeboGraphics wrote: This is called outing and against site rules, so no. Apr 24 17 06:19 am Link LeboGraphics wrote: I have no problem with you warning others, but warn the people who know & trust you, but don't broadcast a warning to strangers: Apr 24 17 07:36 am Link I'll tell the truth. Apr 24 17 10:43 am Link Let me plays devil's advocate and ask. What would members say if a photographer hired a MM model yet when she arrived ready to work he wasn't there and wasn't willing to pay her for her time nor responded to texts, emails, etc. Apr 24 17 10:53 am Link FIFTYONE PHOTOGRAPHY wrote: No--you are wrong. Apr 24 17 05:34 pm Link In the 12 years I've been on this site, I've never had a model that I booked from Modelmayhem flake on me. Even if a model did, I would brush it off ... no need to waste more time or warn others who may not have the same experience with that same model. My vetting is excellent. Apr 24 17 05:54 pm Link LeboGraphics wrote: Warn others about what? Apr 25 17 07:08 am Link LeboGraphics wrote: Here's another reason I don't like public "Flake" lists, whether globally posted or just on your own profile. Apr 25 17 11:27 am Link Or maybe they flaked on you because you gave them a reason to. Works both ways. Just let it go and get off the high horse. Apr 25 17 11:33 am Link Mikey McMichaels wrote: Exactly, like a reference, a single opinion or single incident means little on it's own. Since it's not random sampling and not conclusive, there is no reason to believe it's representative. Is this the only time out of 100 shoots the model has flaked or is this the 50th time out of 100 shoots the model has flaked? Apr 25 17 11:38 am Link Mikey McMichaels wrote: Abbitt Photography wrote: Well, yes -- not all references are created equal. However, I observe that many photographers don't bother getting to know their local photographic community -- some feel that it's a waste of time. References is a good reason why building a local community is valuable. If you know the person giving the reference, and if that person knows & trusts you, they will be more likely to give you an honest & valuable reference. Getting a reference from a stranger, on the other hand, is often next to worthless. Apr 25 17 03:33 pm Link Honestly, I kind of wish there was some kind of system to report this kind of stuff on Model Mayhem. I don't really find posting it on your own profile or in the forums to be that effective, because the chances of someone seeing it and benefiting from it if they are thinking of scheduling a shoot with that person are very low. I believe Amazon has a feature where you can see how many people had a good experience with a seller as a percentage, and of course people are free to leave both negative and positive reviews. If there are 50 awesome reviews but one saying they are terrible, I'd probably feel comfortable to buy from them, but if there were half positive and half negative, I might raise an eyebrow. Negative reviews suck, but if someone has a pattern of dropping out of communication immediately before shoots, flaking, showing up late, being creepy, or whatever the case may be, I'd like to know about it! I do check references, but I still don't think it's a perfect way of finding out someone's reputation. Apr 25 17 10:06 pm Link Many if not most photographers don't belong to a 'community'. Heck most won't share models with friends. Several years ago a NY, MM model was known to have flaked on paid sessions, accepted deposits for shoots and not show. Two members paid her to fly to them and she didn't go. Was it those photographers or her? I do know when she would post a in flake threads about hiring pro models and her victims spoke up she'd shut them down pretty quickly with a joke or dig at them or their work. If a photographer here made a habit of ripping models off or booking them and not showing or canceling last minute and refusing to pay them at all would he/she last long here. I have no ideal what the truth was or wasn't. I do know I was clipped by three MM models. In one case I gave her gas money by mail. She never showed. Another flaked last minute on a paid session where I lost a deposit on a studio. I'm not a fan of outing others but is there some sort of middle ground. Apr 26 17 08:40 am Link I observe no mention of checking a model out, asking for references from other photographers local to the model, etc. As far as "not belonging to a community", that's a choice. Many who claim that there is no local community don't even try. Sure, some photographers won't share models or resources or locations, but some will. Apr 26 17 01:09 pm Link Photographers very often feel they are in competition with each other and I've found most have little desire to share models or information with other photographers. Heck its hard to get some to share at group sessions or work shops. Models very often will have few if any references when they start. Asking other photographers about a model could also mean having those honest views shared with her or him. It happened too me. I have never asked a past model for references and lets be candid. Had I would she likely give one for someone who she flaked on or ripped off. That's why this whole reference thing is largely silly. However that's not what this thread is about. Again I ask the question. How would we as a community see or deal with a photographer who booked paid models and flaked. Should that behavior be reported even if just on the profile of those they may have ripped off. I point to what a former model here did. According to several photographers she accepted deposits to not show. Some lost studio deposits. Others had paid air fare. Yet she continued to book work from this site and when those who claimed had been ripped off spoke up were shut down. In one case his profile was removed. What if the OP is telling the truth. This model cost him time and money. I'm no fan of outing nor of having blacklists but is there another option. Apr 26 17 05:36 pm Link I have had a couple of models flake on me, including one who cost me about $100 in studio fees but I have never called them out. I did have one model on here who I agreed to shoot with subject to studio availability and posted a bad review on my profile when I told her I couldn't get the studio and refused to pay her. A local model who is a member of a FB group here flaked on me twice on consecutive weeks. Her excuses were total BS, but I still didn't call her out on it. It's not worth the hassle IMO. They can always make up something that could ruin your reputation as revenge. Apr 26 17 05:58 pm Link I'm so tired of photographers who are lax at checking out a model & then not taking any measure of responsibility when things don't work out. At the very least, perhaps if you experience flakes, you should not invest a lot of time, effort, or money in a photo session with a model who has little-to-no track record with you. Given what you have read and are reading here, why would you spend $100s on a studio for a session with a model who you are not willing or able to check out? Further, let's remember that many here don't have problems with flaking models. Some of us are cautious. Some of us are generous. Some of us are selective. Some offer models an opportunity or experience that appeals to them. Some of know how to treat models with more respect & empathy than others. It's not surprising that these photographers have better than average "flake ratios". As to photographers claiming that other photographers are their competition: that's just an excuse. I can say with authority that not all photographers feel that way -- I don't feel that way, and I know several others who are willing to share. When I hear that particular excuse, I just assume that the photographer who is speaking is the one who views other photographers as competition. Besides, why would one want to warn "the competition" about a flake, and why would other photographers trust you if you've been treating them as "the competition"? No, you are probably not warning other photographers -- you are probably seeking revenge. So, it's your choice. Work with any model who will appear to agree to work with you, and accept your flake ratio. If you don't like your flake ratio, be more selective. Experiment -- you'll find some selection criteria that'll work for you. As for "outing" an allegedly flaking model -- that doesn't work well, especially for photographers who won't check references. I believe that "outing" a flake does more damage to the "outer" than to the flake. Apr 26 17 07:45 pm Link I don't recall saying that all photographers feel any way. References are often useless especially given that many new models won't have many or any. Nor will I spend time asking other shooters about their experiences because the only one that really counts is mine. A member here posts threads asking others about their views of Windows and tablets. Nothing wrong with that but I value what I think and I've learned to do for myself. That isn't to say what anyone else should do. However for many MM is the only community of photographers they know. The OP isn't a photographer but a Artist/Painter. Lets say that his warning is seen by another member who might want to book that same model. They would at least be aware of his problem, That said I'm not a fan of blacklists but there are models on this site who are known to flake, accept deposits and not show who come late or cancel last minute. There are photographers who act like frat boys or won't pay what they promised or deliver photos from a trade. A while ago I felt that posting a do not recommend on your profile was more trouble then it was worth. Now I'm not so sure. Apr 27 17 09:28 am Link Looknsee Photography wrote: If a photographer reports that a model flaked on him or her, it's a single incidence. Weather you know the photographer reporting this single incidence well or not at all doesn't change the fact it's simply a single incidence of flaking. Having more information may provide a more indicative idea of how reliable the model is, or is not, but a flake rate is what is regardless of how well you know the photographers the model flaked on. Apr 27 17 09:42 am Link Mina Salome wrote: +1 May 14 17 07:23 am Link C.C. Holdings wrote: wrong May 15 17 10:54 am Link For those wishing MM to have a mechanism for "reviews", please go and sign up to Purpleport.com and read their forums for a few weeks. There you'll learn what really happens when a website tries to implement a review section. On purple port, people are looked down upon if they don't have many reviews on their profile (e'g' they don't shoot a lot). Many don't leave negative reviews because they are scared the other will retaliate. Other common complaints is that when they do get a retaliatory "review" admins have been known to delete both reviews. Then there's the review hostage situation, where one refuses to give a review until the other reviews. There are many other problems with having a review system. The best thing to do is network with other models and photographers in your area, and discuss in private who the flakes are. May 15 17 01:16 pm Link Darren Brade wrote: I still don't see that as a bad thing.. if you leave an honest review stating (for example) how you and the model/photographer agreed on a date/time/location to shoot and they suddenly stopped answering calls and/or messages the day of the shoot. There's not much of anything the other party can say or do in retaliation. If anything, knowing a review can/will be given may nudge people into the direction of being more professional with their dealings, or just not getting involved altogether if they're known for being unreliable. May 19 17 05:45 am Link LavishPhotography wrote: "Honest" is relative. May 19 17 07:55 am Link Once I was considering working with a young model. She posted "Do not recommend #xxxxxx" on her page. Of course I looked up that photographer's page. He turned out to be a respected photographer. He had "Do not recommend [that model's number]". So I asked the model for details. She admitted that she flaked on him when she had agreed to pose for a workshop. May 19 17 08:58 am Link Looknsee Photography wrote: That's exactly why I was saying a feature similar to eBays Buyer/Seller system would be great.. May 19 17 05:08 pm Link LavishPhotography wrote: I believe that eBay has a team of lawyers on retainers. LavishPhotography wrote: It all depends upon how one goes about being selective. I still believe that different photographers in a common local area have widely varying "flake ratios", and I contend that it's mostly due to how they go about being selective. LavishPhotography wrote: There you got me. But a negative review on a site bulletin board might not be sufficient in the "repercussion" scale. Around here, it's pretty well known that the local photographers (used to) talk to each other, so if a model flakes even just a couple of times, she'll find that no one is interested in working with her. May 19 17 07:34 pm Link I sell on Ebay and there is very little sellers can do about negative reviews. When I buy I look at what other buyers say about sellers. Reviews that say for example buyers had to contact Paypal for a refund or the item wasn't sent... In general Ebay won't remove a bad review. A member here is a big proponent of belonging to or connecting with other area photographers. The problem with that is many photographers aren't interested in doing that kind of thing. Personally I won't ask around about models and I've learned to be very cautious about what I say. MM is a community. For many photographers its all they have. While I'm not a fan of blacklists, etc. Flakes are an issue for many. Currently I'm in North Carolina. Several models have reached out for sessions. I don't know any photographers down here. How many of you are like me? The only recourse you might have is to do a do not recommend on your profile. Here's an example of where it might be helpful: https://www.modelmayhem.com/forums/post/967297 This model showed up for a session after driving 40 minutes. While we don't have the photographers side. Detailing her experience on her profile might help other models decide if working with this photographer is wise. No solution is perfect though nor I'm I saying that belonging to or starting a art community isn't smart but are you willing to ask multiple photographers about a new model. Given that we all have to start somewhere are you willing to take a chance on a newbie. I am and sometimes it doesn't work out. Other times it does. May 20 17 01:03 pm Link Badmouthing makes you ugly and causes pimples. May 20 17 02:16 pm Link If I were to create a site for creatives to book each other, I would use blockchain--which some of you may know is the software that girds the world of bitcoin. A graph would appear on the members profile of fullfillment. High unfullfillment would get the member suspended with an appeal process. You could see if a photographer paid a model and if she showed up or not and payment could be suspended if he reported she didn't, with an appeal process. It is a system that is open to those who are part of it. Blockchain is being promoted by IBM and it is used now in Moscow's stock exchange so overseas investors can now easily invest. It is expanding in healthcare and along with the rise of IOT (The Internet of Things)-a world of interconnected devicesl If you look these trends in software you'll see that it will be possible to build a site where you will have a high turmup rate by using software that tracks commitment, which means all shoots would be booked through the site and known by the site. May 20 17 04:31 pm Link |
