Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
What does it take for people to stop getting in relations with a guy that has a history like his ?

Exactly!!!

I cringed when I watched Rihanna with Diane Sawyer on 20/20.  They are still 'Best Friends" and such.  She was the WORST role model for people who are God forbid ever in that situation of abuse.  People don't change.

The Young Turks always adds a great spin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSwqA7RT8Ns

Brooklyn Bridge Images wrote:
Counter Question:
What does it take for people to stop getting in relations with a guy that has a history like his ?

Having self-esteem.
Knowing what EMOTIONAL abuse is as it usually pairs with physical or leads up to the physical.
Knowing that love is not emotional/physical pain.
Knowing when to walk away the FIRST time you see someone treat you badly.

Knowing Psych. 101





Watching some or more SVU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjBw9sXst3E

GK photo wrote:
human psychology is a fucked up study. pompous fickled fingers of fate will point in all cardinal directions in cases like this. and these are just the ones that make tmz, etc. for every "famous" example, there are countless other such sad tales in the general populace.

maybe in a couple dozen generations, folks will have a better collective handle on self-esteem. one can only hope.

I never will understand why even on a base level why people like other people that treat them badly.  I think it comes down to, "Gee if I show this guy (person) enough love, his (her) horrible past, chip on his (her) shoulder, etc. will ultimately dissolve and I will be lovable!".

It's sad.

Self-esteem is hard to learn if there is no example.

Jules NYC wrote:
I never will understand why even on a base level why people like other people that treat them badly.  I think it comes down to, "Gee if I show this guy (person) enough love, his (her) horrible past, chip on his (her) shoulder, etc. will ultimately dissolve and I will be lovable!".

It's sad.

Self-esteem is hard to learn if there is no example.

As an abuse survivor, I could write an Iliad on this topic. I can't speak for others, but in my case, it started at home with my parents. Unfortunately, I was born the middle child daughter (between two brothers) to two individuals with a horrible, toxic marriage who probably shouldn't have had kids. My parents made it pretty clear throughout most of my life that I was stupid, talentless, and not worth much at all. This belief followed me into early adulthood when I started having relationships with men.

In my early-20s, I went through two emotionally abusive relationships with men who gaslighted, manipulated, and threatened me by playing on my perceived weaknesses such as being a people-pleaser/being terrified of angering others due to past abuse in my childhood. To many people, I seemed to be a smart, accomplished, and attractive young woman with a bright future, but my private relationships were a total mess for this reason.

My first abusive relationship was pretty cut and dried. I was an insecure college student, he was a grown man, 10 years my senior with an Ivy League degree and a stable but ho-hum job in computer programming. He was also a socially inept misogynist who spent a lot of his time lurking forums and playing video games. He hated his mother and his sister and blamed them for all of his problems in life. His ex-girlfriend was "crazy". All women were "crazy" and I was no exception. For example, if I cried or protested after he called me a "b*tch" a "sl*t" or a "c*nt", I was being "hysterical". (Incidentally, my father had treated me similarly growing up. They even had the same name!)  If I brought up past verbal abuse or threats he'd made against me; I as a "LYING c*nt". I left him about three times in two years before we broke up and the final time involved me having to have a  male friend escort me to his place to pick up my things while he was at work. I received several threatening phone calls for weeks after that and almost had to file a restraining order.

In the second abusive relationship, it got much worse after my mom died and I went no-contact with my abusive father. (See the pattern?)  My abuser "whisked" me away to his country saying that it would be "healing" for me to come live with him and his parents far away from my family and friends (isolation). I was already weakened by my grief for my mother and struggling financially, having left career prospects in the states to be with him.

It also didn't help when I became extremely sick with an intestinal/blood/liver infection for two months that left me nearly completely incapacitated. Abusers are opportunistic, and this was no exception. He took this chance to take complete control of my life -- didn't let me speak to friends or family unsupervised, monitored my phone and my computer, tried to gain access to my bank and credit card accounts, sexual abuse (perhaps worst of all). He did everything _but_ hit me, but it was always right below the surface and there's no doubt in my mind he would have battered me if it had gone on long enough.

Eventually, I was able to convince him to come back to the states when he was unable to find a job in his country and it took me about another 8-9 months to be rid of him completely after that. Admittedly, I'm a person who doesn't do well alone (my mother thought having a boyfriend/husband was the most important thing in the world even if they are horrible) so I took him back a couple of times after kicking him out before going full no-contact.

Studies have indicated that victims will take abusers back an average of SEVEN TIMES before ending the relationship (or the relationship ends them). The truth is that breakups -- even from toxic relationships -- can be devastating and the victim may feel love for their abuser. It's also easy to rationalize abuse if you think you "deserve" it. Like "Well, he may take control of my phone and my bank accounts, but I did flirt with my ex that one time so no wonder he doesn't trust me..." or "Well he hit me but in all fairness, I was kind of a bitch.", etc.

In retrospect, it's mind boggling that I ever felt any affection for this man when now the thought of him turns my stomach and makes me want to hide in a corner, but yes, there was a time I did. It also took me a long time to realize that you don't have to be blameless to deserve safety and respect in your home.

Julie Ann NYC wrote:

As an abuse survivor, I could write an Iliad on this topic. I can't speak for others, but in my case, it started at home with my parents. Unfortunately, I was born the middle child daughter (between two brothers) to two individuals with a horrible, toxic marriage who probably shouldn't have had kids. My parents made it pretty clear throughout most of my life that I was stupid, talentless, and not worth much at all. This belief followed me into early adulthood when I started having relationships with men.

In my early-20s, I went through two emotionally abusive relationships with men who gaslighted, manipulated, and threatened me by playing on my perceived weaknesses such as being a people-pleaser/being terrified of angering others due to past abuse in my childhood. To many people, I seemed to be a smart, accomplished, and attractive young woman with a bright future, but my private relationships were a total mess for this reason.

My first abusive relationship was pretty cut and dried. I was an insecure college student, he was a grown man, 10 years my senior with an Ivy League degree and a stable but ho-hum job in computer programming. He was also a socially inept misogynist who spent a lot of his time lurking forums and playing video games. He hated his mother and his sister and blamed them for all of his problems in life. His ex-girlfriend was "crazy". All women were "crazy" and I was no exception. For example, if I cried or protested after he called me a "b*tch" a "sl*t" or a "c*nt", I was being "hysterical". (Incidentally, my father had treated me similarly growing up. They even had the same name!)  If I brought up past verbal abuse or threats he'd made against me; I as a "LYING c*nt". I left him about three times in two years before we broke up and the final time involved me having to have a  male friend escort me to his place to pick up my things while he was at work. I received several threatening phone calls for weeks after that and almost had to file a restraining order.

In the second abusive relationship, it got much worse after my mom died and I went no-contact with my abusive father. (See the pattern?)  My abuser "whisked" me away to his country saying that it would be "healing" for me to come live with him and his parents far away from my family and friends (isolation). I was already weakened by my grief for my mother and struggling financially, having left career prospects in the states to be with him.

It also didn't help when I became extremely sick with an intestinal/blood/liver infection for two months that left me nearly completely incapacitated. Abusers are opportunistic, and this was no exception. He took this chance to take complete control of my life -- didn't let me speak to friends or family unsupervised, monitored my phone and my computer, tried to gain access to my bank and credit card accounts, sexual abuse (perhaps worst of all). He did everything _but_ hit me, but it was always right below the surface and there's no doubt in my mind he would have battered me if it had gone on long enough.

Eventually, I was able to convince him to come back to the states when he was unable to find a job in his country and it took me about another 8-9 months to be rid of him completely after that. Admittedly, I'm a person who doesn't do well alone (my mother thought having a boyfriend/husband was the most important thing in the world even if they are horrible) so I took him back a couple of times after kicking him out before going full no-contact.

Studies have indicated that victims will take abusers back an average of SEVEN TIMES before ending the relationship (or the relationship ends them). The truth is that breakups -- even from toxic relationships -- can be devastating and the victim may feel love for their abuser. It's also easy to rationalize abuse if you think you "deserve" it. Like "Well, he may take control of my phone and my bank accounts, but I did flirt with my ex that one time so no wonder he doesn't trust me..." or "Well he hit me but in all fairness, I was kind of a bitch.", etc.

In retrospect, it's mind boggling that I ever felt any affection for this man when now the thought of him turns my stomach and makes me want to hide in a corner, but yes, there was a time I did. It also took me a long time to realize that you don't have to be blameless to deserve safety and respect in your home.

I have something for you to look and listen to.
Please watch it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1yW5IsnSjo

I've always been interested in psychology and pick up on people VERY quick these days. I've been in a few unhealthy relationships (thank God not now) and I think it took a year of therapy to figure it all out.

Gary Melton wrote:
It never ceases to blow me away the number of people who continue to defend Chris Brown ("...come on, give him another chance") - including Rihanna herself!

Just do a google search for the actual police report on his attack on Rihanna

(eg: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/rihanna-leak-probe note the "Next" link at the upper right that allows you to view pages 2-4).

The report is quite clear and detailed and outlines just how incredibly BRUTAL and VICIOUS his attack on her was.  How anyone can defend that kind of cold blooded violence against a woman (hell, or against a man for that matter) is simply beyond my comprehension.

All because she questioned who was texting him.
He was a cheater, still is and a true, violent piece of shit.

Gary Melton wrote:
It never ceases to blow me away the number of people who continue to defend Chris Brown ("...come on, give him another chance") - including Rihanna herself!

Just do a google search for the actual police report on his attack on Rihanna

(eg: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/file/rihanna-leak-probe note the "Next" link at the upper right that allows you to view pages 2-4).

The report is quite clear and detailed and outlines just how incredibly BRUTAL and VICIOUS his attack on her was.  How anyone can defend that kind of cold blooded violence against a woman (hell, or against a man for that matter) is simply beyond my comprehension.

I think when people defend him they are defending the thought that we don't know the dynamics of the relationship.  Sharon Osborne defended him by saying that her relationship with Ozzy was really that the two of them were messed up and both were contributing.  She was chewed out by her co-hosts on the view but I do see her point.

martin b wrote:

I think when people defend him they are defending the thought that we don't know the dynamics of the relationship.  Sharon Osborne defended him by saying that her relationship with Ozzy was really that the two of them were messed up and both were contributing.  She was chewed out by her co-hosts on the view but I do see her point.

Two dysfunctional people don't make for a good relationship, not even one.  No matter what is going on with a person, there is NO excuse for physical or emotional abuse.

I see Sharon as a beaten dog that put too many years in and accepted Ozzy's cheating and stupid behavior.
P.S. I love Ozzy as a musician/singer but as a man, he's a wuss.

When Sharon had a medical condition, he downed a bottle of pills to support her.
What a guy!

Jules NYC wrote:
I have something for you to look and listen to.
Please watch it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1yW5IsnSjo

I've always been interested in psychology and pick up on people VERY quick these days. I've been in a few unhealthy relationships (thank God not now) and I think it took a year of therapy to figure it all out.

Yes, her experience sounds a lot like mine and other women's' I've heard.

I probably should have followed up with my story by saying it has a happy ending. I met a wonderful man about three years ago and am in a healthy, loving relationship where I am free and respected.

Julie Ann NYC wrote:

Yes, her experience sounds a lot like mine and other women's' I've heard.

I probably should have followed up with my story by saying it has a happy ending. I met a wonderful man about three years ago and am in a healthy, loving relationship where I am free and respected.

That is wonderful, it truly is.

I think it's important for women and men to talk about abuse, esp. emotional abuse.  Not many truly understand what a healthy relationship is. 

I too am in a healthy, loving relationship based on respect.  I'm honestly embarrassed, looking back at what I put up with.  I chalk it up to being nurturing and understanding when someone is in pain.  These days, I haven't lost any of my compassion but troubled people I try to keep more than an arm's length away. You'd be surprised how troubled people try to find happy, well-adjusted people and mask themselves as such to 'bait' you.

You mentioned "Gas-lighting".  Great movie and how the term was coined.

Virtual Studio wrote:
Shrug. You hang with gangsta guys cos they are hot - then  why are you surprised when they act like thugs?

If you don't want to be smacked about - then stop lionizing the guys who beat.

Lieza Nova wrote:
I've been here too, more than once and second a lot of what Julie Ann said. My problems with abuse started with abusive parents as well.  I have no desire to go into much detail, but it was the kind of stuff you see on the evening news. My parents were both abused children of the 60's who never should have gotten married and definitely shouldn't have had children. But, they did and I suffered for it.

Most of my romantic relationships were repeats of that. Manipulative, abusive and horrible. My first husband gaslighted and abused me over shit his ex wife did and for his irrational insecurities. My second husband got involved in a religious cult, was emotionally abusive and left me after I started chemo, because my oncologist told him that I'd be too sick to work. He was arrested and convicted of domestic assault prior to this, but I had zero self-esteem and had no idea how to stand up for myself. Even after we divorced, he still tried to manipulate me into helping him with his green card, making threats about what he's do if I didn't cooperate. He tried to make good on them and, as far as I know, has failed.

The last one. I honestly have no idea how I managed to get out of it alive. He was my pastor's son, seemed like a kinda dumb, but good hearted person. That is, until he got hooked on meth. After that... It was nothing but abuse and beatings. He's get paranoid from the drugs and I was a convenient target. He broke one of my legs and dislocated my hip, so I couldn't leave the house. My nose and jaw look fine now, but I need surgery to fix the damage from being broken multiple times. It ended when the neighbor's didn't see me for a few days, after he was already charged with beating the crap out of me in public, and somebody was worried enough to call the police. He was arrested and charged with attempted murder, kidnapping and a litany of other even more heinous charges that were eventually pled down and he served two years for it. I left the state the day before his arraignment, taking my pets and whatever else I could fit in my piece of shit car. It's been nearly 4 years and I'm still afraid of him. I carry a handgun and my dogs alert me if anyone comes on my property. I take Krav Maga classes. This won't happen again.

He's still on drugs and is currently wanted on multiple felony charges, including escaping from custody. I get a notice every time he goes in and out of jail, because of the protection order that I have. Which reminds me that it's expiring next year and needs to be renewed.

Since then, I've had short relationships, but they've always ended with me saying "I don't need to up with this" and leaving. At this point in my life, I've developed some self-esteem, from counseling and from the success I've had dancing and in school. The truth his that, if someone is told that they're worthless and never going to amount to anything long enough, eventually it becomes the truth. I've been told that for my entire life and it wasn't until I achieved some real success to break through that conditioning. Truth be told, I've been successful for most of my life, but it was so overshadowed by the abuse that I never saw it or was manipulated into believing that only had that success because a parent or husband made me successful.

I'm happily single now and I'm successful with it. I have a nice car, a nice house, a job that pays well and I'll have my degree soon. I finally realized that the only person I could change is myself. It took me a long time to finally realize that.

So, why do people keep dating Chris Brown? For the same reason that I and millions of other people keep choosing the same type of abuser over and over again. We experience that abuse as children and it becomes normal. Or we fall into that first abusive relationship and leave so broken that it becomes normal. It takes time, healing and, in many cases, a lot of therapy to repair that damage. It also takes emergency services, such as shelters, that just don't have the resources to help everyone. I tried to leave repeatedly and he'd either find me or I'd run out of money and come crawling back.

It's not as simple as "dating a thug, 'cause he's hot." It's not even Psych 101. It's very complicated social psychology and certainly not something to trivialize or blame the victim for.

I think it takes a lot of courage and kindness for you to post what you did.  I believe when more people start talking about these issues, there's great empowerment.

I particularly like how your self-esteem is not deemed upon a success of a relationship or even having one.  There have been many times that I've been single and 'on fire', doing my thing, things are going well, etc., then I'd get into a relationship and everything would go to shit.

Luckily my current relationship is full of happiness and no bullshit.  I know that self-esteem means feeling comfortable choosing the right relationship and being perfectly fine without one.  I also think it's a beautiful thing that you overcame a lot of negative/abusive conditioning that could have kept an unhealthy cycle, round and round forever. That takes work... working on yourself.  Kudos for that!

Powerful and true words you've said:
I finally realized that the only person I could change is myself. It took me a long time to finally realize that.

Jules NYC wrote:
I think it takes a lot of courage and kindness for you to post what you did.  I believe when more people start talking about these issues, there's great empowerment.

I particularly like how your self-esteem is not deemed upon a success of a relationship or even having one.  There have been many times that I've been single and 'on fire', doing my thing, things are going well, etc., then I'd get into a relationship and everything would go to shit.

Luckily my current relationship is full of happiness and no bullshit.  I know that self-esteem means feeling comfortable choosing the right relationship and being perfectly fine without one.  I also think it's a beautiful thing that you overcame a lot of negative/abusive conditioning that could have kept an unhealthy cycle, round and round forever. That takes work... working on yourself.  Kudos for that!

Powerful and true words you've said:
I finally realized that the only person I could change is myself. It took me a long time to finally realize that.

There's a lot that goes into why people abuse and why people stay in abusive situations or attract multiple abusers. There's also an unjustified stigma in being an abuse victim and it's helpful for others to know they're not alone and it's not their fault. That this has happened to a lot of spectacular people and for complicated reasons. Talking about it openly helps remove the shame and isolation, which can often be barriers to seeking help. It needs to be discussed and stories need to be told.

Some people are not cut out to have relationships and I'm just one of those people. And that's ok. While there's plenty of stigma there as well, especially for women, it doesn't bother me that much because I value things differently now. And that's cool. I'm still working on that negative conditioning, but it's getting better. I've learned how to redirect my energy in more positive ways and that's a good start. For example, I have a need to "fix" people. I can't actually do that with people, but I have a lot of talent in rehabilitating abused/sick animals, so I rescue instead. The animals get a safe, happy home, vet care and lots of love. I get an outlet for my need to fix things, along with love and companionship. Everybody wins and it's healthy.

It took me realizing that the only common factor in all of my bad relationships was me to actually do something to break the cycle. I chose these people. Over and Over again. There had to be a reason why and, If I ever did want to have a positive relationship, I needed to figure it out. It's a hard question to ask and requires a lot of hard changes to be made. But it has to be done.

Lieza Nova wrote:
It took me realizing that the only common factor in all of my bad relationships was me to actually do something to break the cycle. I chose these people. Over and Over again. There had to be a reason why and, If I ever did want to have a positive relationship, I needed to figure it out. It's a hard question to ask and requires a lot of hard changes to be made. But it has to be done.

Maybe you find a person that has been through the same or relative pain that you have, then try to fix it because you wish someone would do that for you.  Animals are a good substitute for getting that accomplished feeling of fixing something.  They usually (not always) have a predictable result.

I don't think you are not cut out for relationships.  I think you still need to work on yourself and when you're 'there', you will be ready for one, if and only if you want a relationship.  You seem to be doing quite well on your very own.  Just don't give up on being with someone.  You never know.

Jules NYC wrote:
Maybe you find a person that has been through the same or relative pain that you have, then try to fix it because you wish someone would do that for you.  Animals are a good substitute for getting that accomplished feeling of fixing something.  They usually (not always) have a predictable result.

I don't think you are not cut out for relationships.  I think you still need to work on yourself and when you're 'there', you will be ready for one, if and only if you want a relationship.  You seem to be doing quite well on your very own.  Just don't give up on being with someone.  You never know.

There are a lot of psychological reasons for "fix it syndrome, as I call it. The underlying causes really depend on the individual. Mine stem from the issues that my parents had, as far as I can tell.

As far as relationships go, there's a growing body of research showing that a small but significant group of people are better off being single and that they're happier single than paired off, even when involved I'm a healthy relationship. Most people fit the cultural standard of being happier im a relationship but I'm just not one of them. There's a lot of psychology involved in this too but, really, as long as a person is genuinely happy with their life, it shouldn't matter much anyway.

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Women know not to get involved with those type of guys, but despite that it happens alot as I suspect theres something in womens code genetically from our caveman days. theres no rational reason why so many women date these bad boy types. but I guess in the animal kingdom the chest beater and one who projects power and danger still attracts the female mates

This is wrong on every single level.

Women don't instinctively know which men will be abusers and which ones won't. It's not like they announce their intentions on a first date and the notion that all abusive men look like thugs is misguided at best. My first husband was a college educated, soft spoken guy. My second was "sensitive ponytail man." Neither one looked or acted like a thug, yet both were abusive.  The third ended up looking thugish, but that was more from drug abuse than a personal choice. There are also plenty of "bad boy" looking guys that are incredibly kind hearted people. Judging a book by it's cover isn't the best idea.

Your post also squarely blames the victims of abuse for getting into a bad relationship, rather than the men who abuse. It's not the victim's fault that an abuser beats him/ her. It's the abusers action and the abusers fault. There are psychological reasons why the victim ends up making bad choices, but it's not a conscious process. The victim is not doing it on purpose.

There is nothing in evolutionary psychology or biology that points to there being any evolutionary reason for domestic violence. While there was and likely still is speculation, none of the theories adequately explained why domestic violence is also found in lesbian relationships or why female perpetrated domestic violence happens in heterosexual relationships. There are plenty of psychological factors in play and the personality disorders that can contribute to violent behavior are often organic in nature, but there's nothing from the caveman days that explains it.

Lieza Nova wrote:

There are a lot of psychological reasons for "fix it syndrome, as I call it. The underlying causes really depend on the individual. Mine stem from the issues that my parents had, as far as I can tell.

As far as relationships go, there's a growing body of research showing that a small but significant group of people are better off being single and that they're happier single than paired off, even when involved I'm a healthy relationship. Most people fit the cultural standard of being happier im a relationship but I'm just not one of them. There's a lot of psychology involved in this too but, really, as long as a person is genuinely happy with their life, it shouldn't matter much anyway.

You're right on the complicated psychological reasons for the 'fix it' syndrome.  These reasons go deep and take a lot of 'undoing' to be at an even keel. 

I noticed as I grew older I didn't want to be with someone who didn't do 'the work', on themselves, period.  Looking back, I realized I didn't want a reflection of someone's parents affecting me in my adulthood when I didn't experience that pain.  Sure, everyone has *insert whatever here* that they need to figure out/overcome, etc., but if it's too much of a challenge, it ultimately drains my energy and I become a psych, a nurse and a substitute mother for those who didn't 'do the work'.

As for choosing to be or not to be in a relationship, that is DEFINETLY a personal decision.  I don't believe in studies all that much when it comes to the heart (unless it's a medical fact).  People can die of a broken heart; that's a fact!

I think it comes down to this:  Does this person make my life better or worse?

If it's the latter, then no can do!  lol

I truly believe people can be happy being single.  Society has put all of these odd expectations upon what 'should be' and a lot of people end up miserable!

It is fantastic to have your own house, a great job, etc.  Most women expect a man to sweep them away and provide all of that.  I always... ALWAYS wanted to buy my own house just for the sole reason of saying to MYSELF, "I can do this and will never be trapped."

Tony From Syracuse wrote:
Women know not to get involved with those type of guys, but despite that it happens alot as I suspect theres something in womens code genetically from our caveman days. theres no rational reason why so many women date these bad boy types. but I guess in the animal kingdom the chest beater and one who projects power and danger still attracts the female mates

I have to agree with Lieza on her take.

I had some really nice relationships that I could look back and reflect on.  If I were to give a percentage, 75% of my relationships were poisonous and draining to my person.  Yes, I chose these people... different reasons for different people. 

There was always a common thread; they were very intelligent.  I liked that.  I don't like troubled and intelligent.  The relationship that brought me into therapy was probably the WORST and most embarrassing relationship I have ever had. Out of them all, he was the biggest idiot.

Think of it like this:  Ever cook something a lot and you become really good at making *insert whatever here*?  Well, same deal with the human condition.  See enough patterns in yourself, your relationships and people, you can instantly detect bullshit behavior even in people you are not emotionally intimate with... coworkers, even strangers.  There are 'tells'.

You'd be VERY surprised how a destructive person can ever so slowly poison your life.  There are many ways to see if someone is a 'good guy', right off the bat.  This would take a novella, but past behavior says a lot.

People can change behaviors but they don't change their person.